Am I being fair?
 

I entered verbally into a stud contract with a couple who own a tiny male yorkie. They wanted $500 and if my female doesn't get pregnant I get a second chance. If she doesn't get pregnant again, I do not get any refund.

Anyways when my female came into heat, I contacted the breeders and let them know. They assured their male was available and to contact them when she came into standing heat. She came into standing heat over the September long weekend here in Canada. She started flagging and standing for my neutered male Saturday night (day 9 of her heat cyle). I phoned the breeders on Sunday morning and left a message. I never heard back from them until late Monday night (day 11). I asked if they had been out of town, but I was never given an answer why it took them two days to get back to me. I was told I could go over the next day (day 12). I took my female over and it was a distrastrous breeding -- the male was on my female's back, and all over the place, and they then told me that their stud had only tied once naturally and that they have always done IA. Anways the dogs never tied and they thought the sperm was lost on my females leg "or somewhere else". I was told to come over the next day to try again (day 13). They were going to try natural breeding again, but I asked that they go right to IA which they did. I was told to come back on Friday (day 15). But on Thursday, my female was not flagging or standing anymore -- so her standing heat was from days 9-13. I only bred her on day 13. When I asked how much I owed them, they asked for the full $500.00. I told them that I didn't feel comfortable with that, b/c they only bred her once and were not available to me at the beginning of her standing heat. I offered to pay $250 and the rest if she gets pregnant. The breeder sounded very offended and was abrupt with me.

I'm wondering if I am being unfair here -- yes, we entered a verbal contract that I would pay $500, but their part of the contract was to have their male availabe to my female while she was ready for breeding --- that did not happen and I was only able to breed her once -- I feel uncomfortable paying the $500 -- if she doesn't get pregnant, I am promised a second try -- but how do I know that the second try won't be a repeat of my first experience with this breeder?

WOW I dont think your being unfair, sounds more then fair to me. I would not of paid her one penny until I knew my female was indeed pregnant. she should of been able to have your girl over on the days she was ready.is this male a proven stud?

i agree
 

I must agree with you. I am new at breeding and let me tell you whats happening to me. My female is on day 65 from the time she first tied and now waiting for 2 pups to arrive. I bred my female to the breeders personel dog 4 tiimes starting on 7/3 i did not know when she began her heat and had to guess for we were on vacation when she started and she was with a sitter. I wanted to breed her once more to make sure she would have more than one or two and she did not answer my texts. I even texted her since than to ask her a Q and she still has not responded back to me.
I told her 2 years ago that i wanted to bred my dog to hers and she told me $500 or one pup. Now after breeding my dog to hers i assumed it stood the same but she said when i was leaving $1500 or one pup. they are brazilian born dogs and not even AKC registered. I said i thought you told me 500 and she said well then give a pup. and i said what if she just has one and she told me just to keep it which i thought was fair. but 1500 is a absurd fee for a dog that has no registration!!!
In the meantime, two weeks after breeding my female urinated on the wee-wee pad and it smelled like FISH like yuck!!! i called the vet, brought her in did a urine test and she said she has a UTI and bladder infection. gave her anti-biotics and $200 later sent me home and told me to come back in two weeks to retest urine. 2 weeks later there was still and infection so she gave me another anti-biotic $150. told me to come back again in 2 more weeks with more urine and she still had and infection!!!! I had to bring her in again last friday and she had to xray her to see where her bladder was located for she had to do a internal culture and send it to a lab to see what kind of strain of bacteria it was it cure this ( $300 more)..Low and behold no bacteria in her bladder at all..she said that it is coming from her vagina and can not do anything till pups are born to treat this. She said it could have been caused from the breeding and STD's are rare in dogs but other infections are possible. She said she will not pass it on to the pups...
I must say i am furious over this.. I spend $650 on treatment so far and it is still not cured. After she has these pups i will call up the breeder and tell her she will receive nothing. for she did not return my texts, which is the only way to speak with her and this has cost me enough for the bacteria. I have looked up online and various studs range from 350-500 for a fee and $1500 is crazy and now sick about this bacteria thing.

answer
 

I would not pay her anything either. Until you know that your female is preg. too. I think breeders should charge a fee like $250 for one live pup and $500 for a 2 or more litter.. Then if a female does not get preg then no charge and a return of $.
My studs mom did not ask for $ up front ...guess she is just trusting. I dont want to screw her but i may give her something if i clear this infection up and have healthy pups also but she will just receive a nominal fee.

Wow thats a lot of money for use of her stud. In useing someone elses stud you should always make sure they have been tested for STD's. they are useing him to breed with other dogs, you never know what they can pick up and pass around. did you let her know about your dogs infection so she can treat her stud also. if not he will just keep passing it on. I would also show her your vet papers and knock the vet bills off of her payment.

stud fees are generally paid in advance no matter what and if the female doesn't get pregnant, you get a repeat breeding.

You can't look up online on other peoples fees and expect that the person you are hiring for stud fee service is going to imply with that fee. That just isn't how it works. Stud fees and puppy prices vary greatly.
Get everything in writing.
You used her male 4 times so this breeder should collect stud fee.
Breeding is a very expensive venture.
Best thing to do is buy your own stud if you don't like the way stud service works.
Good luck to both of you.

Deana
Prestigeous Yorkies

I'm surprised that they didn't collect the entire fee upfront but since they didn't I think I would offer instead to give them $250 now and the other $250 when you confirm pregnancy. If she's pregnant, it doesn't matter how many times, he got the job done one way or the other and that's really all that matters. Although, you really did agree to the full $500.....

I believe that if you made a verbal contract with this woman for $500. and a repeat breeding if a pregnancy should not occur than you should stick by it. I agree that if you don't like the terms of stud use than buy your own stud so that you don't have to worry about it.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Owning your own stud dog is very expensive in upkeep and care. You should always have your female and the stud tested for brucellosis prior to breeding. I would not stud a female without a negative test from a vet. But then again I have never studded a female yet for many reasons. I have however paid for stud service and $500 is reasonable.

You still could get puppies. It only takes once to get pups. Look at some of the posts we have read on here in the past - even having an accident breeding that only happen once and they have a whole litter of pups. So I would have paid the whole fee. When you breed to any stud, you never know how either of the dogs will act. Also it is normal for you to leave the female at the stud's home for about a week. This way she knows you are not around and will perform better to the matting, this also goes for the male as well - performance. If it does not work - you get a repeat breeding. I would have been afended if one had used my stud and then tried to offer me only half.

I had a friend of mine go to her OBGYN doctor to perform artifical insemantation on her to try to get pregnant (after years of not getting pregant) It took her 4 times for her finally to conceive. Do you think she should have only paid him half? No!

What is the name of the breeder ?

Thanks for the reminder that she still may get pregnant -- that's what I'm hoping - and then of course I would pay the remainder of the $500!!! I never suggested the fee was unreasonable -- I've experienced 3 scenarios so far:
1. One breeder trusted me and said I only had to pay($400) if my female got pregnant -- my female didn't but I sent her $ anyways for her time. 2. I paid $250 to another breeder for her time , and the remainder $150 when my female got pregnant, which she did.

So this contract was a bit different, but yes I verbally agreed to it. The problem I have is the breeder modified their part of the agreement b/f I ever suggested I was modifying mine, i.e. they were suppose to be available the whole week to breed my dog when she was in standing heat --- they weren't -- thus they broke our verbal agreement or contract.

Tjdmom, Ladyhawk, and topknot: Think about this and answer it honestly -- if you hired a band to play at your child's wedding, or your wedding, anniversary...and the band was suppose to play for 5 hours and you were suppose to pay $500, but they only showed up the last 2 hours, would you have paid them $500 when they said to you at the end of the evening "but you have to pay the $500 -- we made a verbal agreement -- we entertained, now you pay" -- in a court of law the judge looks at whether all aspects of the contract is fulfilled b/f full payment is ever expected. If our "band" said to you well we failed to meet your needs at this performance, but don't worry we'll do it again at your next function -- just pay us that $500 now --- would you trust them? Or would it cross your mind that the next time, they may again be too busy, etc. to make it on time when you need them. I could mention about another 10 analogies, but I hope you get the point. I have a feeling that if it was you being expected to pay a full price for 1/2 of the services promised, you might feel differently.

Felicity -- yes that is the highest stud fee I have heard of -- some breeders are so greedy. It's too bad you incurred additional expenses -- I did too -- the drive to this breeder's house is 30 minutes outside my city -- all gravel road. So I did a couple of hours of gravel driving those 2 nights, on the second night a passing vehicle threw rocks into the air with their vehicle and hit my windshield -- price on replacing it is close to a $1000.

Yes I agree I need my own stud and have tried twice --- both with problems -- just posted a thread recently about Continental Kennel Club discussing my experience -- I seem to be having bad luck with this breeding thing, but I keep trying.

Maybe breeding is not meant for you with all the problems you have incurred.

I live down the road from a rock cory and had my window damaged too by rocks - to repace it - we got prices from 100.00 - 300.00 for a new front window. I know it is a hassel to replace. The one rock that damaged my window the most (yes, I have had more rocks hit my window since living by this cory) actually just fell from the sky when they were blasting and I was just driving down the road to go to work. Boy, was I surprised.

I have paid a lot higher for stud service than 500.00, a lot more! And once had to drive 2 hours away - one way to another state. Then back home the same day to go home and then returned to pick up my girl the following week. Then had a c-section and my girl almost died due to complications and ended up with only two boys. But at least they are beautiful! Very promising.

Another time I used a stud, I also ended up with a c-section and had two girls, but lost one after 5 days after hand feeding her around the clock. Also my mama had a rough time too from te c-section. The girl I have left is gorgeous.

Neither of my mom's had c-sections due to them - it just happened. One pup with was trying to go up the other horn and had a traffic jam and the other time one pup came out of its sack during labor. These things happen.
All mine are AKC and champions involved.

Even though we had a rough time of it and the second time only ended up with one pup, that is just had it goes. I did not ask for a partial refund.
And IMO - relating a band playing to a male performance is not the same. It is best (I know from experience) to leave your female there and return. Since you were there the male could have sensed your presence - a stranger in the home and mot performed to his best ability. They are finicky ike that. So, IMO - you may have caused him not to perform as well. You are dealing with emotions, not a talent of how well someone played. Your example of the band is right if brought to court, since they practice to do well. It is a talent, not an act of emotions and hormones. Things happen. I am glad I have not used my stud to someone else.

And when I use someone else's stud I understand how things are. They are not perfect all the time. And if you want a really good stud to use - you might have to go to the end of the world to use that stud.
I have a friend that had to fly to another state to use a particular stud and then flew back to get her girl after the breedings a week later. She ended up with only one girl. That's life. She spent just over 2,000 in just plane tickets and stud service, not to mention her time and all.
Some of the people you mentioned - the band story too - are experienced breeders and even show their dogs. We were being honest and just told you from own own expert advice.

I know it is hard sometimes and you want everything t be perfect, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.
Best fo luck to you in the future.

I forgot to mention - that AI is not easy to get the stuff you need (if you know what I mean). And since they also did the AI, you got two breedings.
I had one girl that only got AI and she had three pups from that. So you should be fine. I would have paid them in full.

Did you check out that the stud dog was proven???.
I always use the same person who has 3 stud dogs. There is never a problem. These wee guys are very good at their job, LOL. Also I only have my girls mate with them once, and I have always had puppies. So it can be done first time around.
I pay up front, no writen contract. If the mating is not succsessul then you can go back and get it free the next time.

I guess you just gotta pay up. But if it was me I certainly would not be using her stud dog again.

I looked back at all your posts you started and - yes, you have had a time. You know about AI, you like to negotiate terms, and you have checked out studs. You seem new to breeding, but you are not. I think you might want to check out this site for Canadian yorkie Assoc. Canadian Yorkshire Terrier Association and may lead you in the right direction - right stud, breeding ethics, etc.. May be your best choice.

Like my dad always told me - "If you want to do something - Do your best!"

yes that is the highest stud fee I have heard of -- some breeders are so greedy. It's too bad you incurred additional expenses -- I did too -- the drive to this breeder's house is 30 minutes outside my city -- all gravel road. So I did a couple of hours of gravel driving those 2 nights, on the second night a passing vehicle threw rocks into the air with their vehicle and hit my windshield -- price on replacing it is close to a $1000.

And some new comers want to have the best quality for nothing . I would be curious if you will not be greedy when selling your puppies .

It has always been too much of a hassle for me when using studs.
So I prefer to have my own.
seems everytime I try to coordinate a stud service, life just gets in the way with timing etc.
I remember my first time going out for stud, we waited to take her because she loved to sit in my lap and I hated to send her. We drive 3 hours one way and then while she is there they have an ice storm so we had to wait to go back and get her longer than normal. :(
Then she had only one pup, a big male. But he was very nice~ I sold him to a friend of mine and he made his CH title. So it all worked out in the end. Except I had planned to keep a girl LOL
So it is frustrating to say the least.
But the whole breeding thing is a challenge at times.

Deana
Prestigeous Yorkies

That is a great point too Deana! If you think the initial $500 is alot then turn around have 1 puppy, a c section possibly and all your vet expenses, puppy food, formula etc. Now how much did it cost? You have to be willing to entertain this scenario. I use a stud who I specifically pick to compliment my female, not to just have puppies. Hope all works out fine for you though!

Hi everyone -- I guess there's no clear cut answer on this one - I will just have to give it some more thought. I was hoping someone could give me a good answer to why I should pay the $500 other than just "an agreement is an agreement".

Just to answer some of the questions asked: I was told the male is proven --their own females had a litter and one other lady that used their stud had a litter, but it wasn't until my first time there that they told me their stud had only tied once on his own before -- that was the night he ejaculated on my female's leg (the breeder is a vet by the way so I have to take his word -- he was watching from behind, that there was no sperm "in my female"). I won't mention the name of the breeder -- they are small breeders here in Canada, and seem to be nice people. I somehow sensed though that this vet saw his involvement with breeding as "vet time" and wanted to charge his "vet fees". I didn't leave my female there b/c it was not offered to me, and again am taking the advice of a more experienced breeder and vet on how their own stud performs when people are present.

I know my analogy about a "band" is not the same as a dog breeding, but I was simply trying to make the point, not about performance, but about [U]being available[/U] when you promise someone to be available. Not being available to my female for her first 3 days of standing heat (she only stood for 5 days) is the term of the contract the breeders failed to carry out -- so that may effect whether she gets pregnant -- if she does get pregnant as I have always said, I will pay the whole amount. In my other two experiences using someone else's stud, they had me bring my female on her 1st/2nd day of standing heat, and then every 2 days after that. From all the reading I have done, that appears to be the most successful way to breed and was the way this breeder told me they would breed my female -- which they didn't.

Although I teach learning disabled kids now, I was a lawyer for several years b/f switching careers, so I know that a court would view this breeder's behavior as not fully carrying out their promised contract. I find the world of breeding a very different place though than corporate law -- not everyone puts everything in writing, and I have often found breeders get offended when I ask to have things in writing or try to work out different arrangements from what they suggest. There seems to be a lot more emotions involved, and I often feel like I am walking on pins and needles when dealing with alot of breeders... I don't get it...

Anyways I myself am feeling pretty emotionally and finacially drained -- the $1000 quote on the cracked front window is correct by the way -- my husband got the quote -- maybe it's the type of vehicle I have, or maybe b/c everything in Canada is more expensive...

I don't feel the band example applies well at all. You are paying for the results of a service not the number of times or hours put into it. If I paid for a tile job it shouldn't matter whether the tileman took an hour to do it or 4 hours to do it if I am paying by the job and the results are the same. You are paying for a service that results in a litter of puppies, not for the breeder's time. If you verbally contract for said service and a holiday messes up your timing but a litter is still the result (even with one breeding you will probably get a litter) you owe the stud owner the amount that you agreed to pay for a service. As a lawyer you should already know all of this. Most services are not purchased by the hour but by the service, you got your service, stand by your word.

You said you were previously a lawyer, so I have to ask why would go ahead and enter into the agreement if you felt that they were not available for your girl.
You could have very easily just skipped her cycle, that was your option but yet you chose to go ahead into the agreement and allowed the stud to breed to your dog in the hopes of having a litter? So the stud service is owed.


Deana
Prestigeous Yorkies

Ladyhawk: We have two diffierent viewpoints going on here -- when I asked for their services they told me they would breed her at the beginning of her standing heat and every two days later with the intention of her getting pregnant -- they did not honor their contract -- they did not breed her at the beginning of her standing heat cyle (as a lawyer I do understand this -- why don't you study contract law b/f you start telling me what I should know or not know) -- and I've never heard of a tile setter who sets tiles in 1 hour to the same standard as someone who does it in 4 -- it will be a much sloppier job (my husband's a building contractor -- and I hear all the time about rushed, sloppy jobs) -- these breeder's were not around when I needed them -- they should not have promised me their stud -- and if they knew they were going away for the holidays they should have told me so that I could have made arrangements elsewhere. If my holidays messed up the availability of breeding time then I would have to decide if I would still breed and pay the $500 --- but they were the ones that were not available, not me. I bought a service but that service involved conditions that were not met --- I can give you about another 10 analogies/scenarios but I already can tell you are biased and defensive and will refuse to understand it, so why waste my time...

Prestigious: You have offered me the best argument so far to consider -- good point and one I gave some thought too. I entered into the agreement b/c they were suppose to be available, but when they didn't get back to me until day 4, you are right I could have backed out. But I though my dog would be in standing heat for a few more days, so I thought we still had a chance of getting her pregnant -- plus I was in a bind I had not bothered arranging for another stud b/c they had promised they would be available. When we finally started the process on day 4 of her standing heat, I didn't know that the dog would not be able to perform that day -- which left just one day left to breed (she ended up only standing for 5 days). Had I known that they wouldn't be around the first few needed days, and would waste day 4 of her standing heat and only breed her on day 5 --- believe me I would not have entered into this contract. There was a lot of information they left out -- ie. 1. We (the stud owners) won't be around for the first 3 days of your dog's heat; and 2. Our stud dog never ties but we're going to experiment on your dog instead of performing AI -- and I wasn't told about this until their dog ejaculated all over my dog's leg.... they told me later that they were trying natural instead of AI with my dog b/c she was lower to the ground then other females he had tried to breed with -- so they were hoping he would be able to perform naturally with her.

I am still not convinced that I should pay the full amount for this contract screw up ... just b/c for some selfish, stubborn, narrow-minded breeders a "(broken) contract is still a contract--- when it's time to get paid". And for the LAST TIME -- yes I realize I am also paying for a litter, so if there is a litter I will pay the full amount! It's the fact that there may not be a litter b/c of their inability to completely carry out the contract as agreed upon, that I am at this point withholding fees............................ and even if there is a litter, I would be very hesitant to ever use their stud again b/c of how unreliable I found these breeders to be.

My husband is a tile setter as is his father and grandfather. I used tile because it is something I know. My husband is slow and meticulous, he doesn't do anything quickly, it's not his speed. His father however can do absolutely beautiful work in no time flat. He is small and fast and very efficient. That being said, though you may not be happy about the way the service was performed you still got the service. I doubt you'll have to worry about using their stud again, they probably won't make him available to you.

Ladyhawk -- you are extremely judgmental -- you have no idea how we got along or how I dealt with them when I discussed my feelings with them. You are obvioulsy one of those up-tight breeders that we all have to pussy foot around.

I'm not the least bit uptight. If you have an equitable arrangement with these people and they are fine with the changes in the original terms of the agreement than why are you asking if you are being fair? You want to know if I and others think it is okay that you withhold half of the payment. I simply stated that I feel that you got the service that you paid for and should abide by the agreement that you made. If you were unhappy that the stud owner didn't get back to you in a timely manner or did not perform as you expected you should have cancelled the agreement. I have made no speculations as to your personality or personal dealings please be mature enough not to speculate on mine. If you must be rude than I think admin should just close this thread.

I advise anyone who feels like a breeding is a "must do" to have progesterone testing done. You should have optimal success if you know when to breed your bitch, and one or two services will be sufficient, no need to breed three times. It has worked extremely well for me and others I know that use it, we are getting more puppies per litter and have better info re: when the bitch is due. I have found that the small investment up front in the tests is well worth it. I won't do another breeding without it.

I have to agree with the others on this one...By going ahead and accepting the breeding you were accepting the new terms...If you were unhappy with what was going on you really should have just forfeited your breeding and walked away...

As a lawyer I am confused why you didn't draw up a written contract with the owner of the stud dog...:confused:...Sounds like to me you are looking for a loophole in hopes of not paying the agreed upon price...

Bottom line is you didn't walk away...You got your bitch bred...and you owe the stud fee!

You actually did make specualtions about my personal dealings by stating "they probably won't make him(stud) available to you". That is rude as well -- the breeders were very nice people, and we got along fine, I just wasn't happy with the fact that they were not reliable.

About "cancelling the agreement" you can if you want read my response to Prestigious where I explained why I didn't cancel it. Oddly every person in the non-breeding dog world that I tell this story too, is horrified that the breeder expects me to pay the full amount, some people in this thread (perhaps non-breeders) also agree with me. It seems the only people agreeing that I need to pay the full amount are breeders themselves... you stated to me earlier in a post in this thread that I need to "stand by my word". Why does the owner of the stud not have to "stand by his word?"....hmmm

Anyways, I do apologize, I do not know you personally and shouldn't be assuming what your personality is like based on our discussions. To be involved in yorkietalk.com and taking time to respond to people's questions, you are obvioulsy a concerned, helpful individual, and I am sure you have helped many beginning breeders.