Originally Posted by yorkiegold

Here's another one that's been sticking in my craw. "We care more about temperament..."????????????????

We used to breed/train/show Rotts. We got their hips x-rayed and OFA'd, elbows certified, eyes certified by a board-certified specialist, etc. 25 years later, health experts in the field were saying - to hell with the eyes, hips, etc. TEMPERAMENT IS MOST IMPORTANT.

And they were right. I hope it's obvious to all readers why.

What is it about the Yorkie temperament that concerns you and that you think could be improved by pet breeders? If you look at the breed in its entirety, wouldn't you think that health issues such as liver shunt, Legg-Perthes, luxating patella, etc would be at the top of the list and not temperament? The Yorkie gene pool is ENORMOUS and there is no need/excuse to breed any individual with an obvious genetic disqualifying fault.

I know you pride yourself on your logical argument, but your derive your logic from flawed premises and assumptions.

Again, I hope you will cease encouraging unethical breeding practices whether the goal is the show ring or pet home.

CJ

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

Well, with this post I think we have found out who breeds for what reasons. :) I know if I am looking for a new yorkie to bring into my home who I will be contacting in the future, as well to whom I would ever consider giving breeding rights to and who I wouldn't, from any sales of my pups. :eek: Who says you can't learn something everyday. lol !!! You can all keep the debate going but I think the record has already been set....

Originally Posted by iluvyorkies

Hi,
Wanted you all to know that this morning I received an e-mail from the address yorkielover2002@aol.com. The zip attachment had a virus. The text said "my hero". Just wanted to warn you: if you get a similar e-mail, please delete it. And to the person who sent it: :thumbdown didn't harm me, my browser picked it up :D

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Why bother to post that you want help or information. You have made up your mind what of what you are going to do. You don't care about the breed, your dog, the puppies that you will produce and the folks who will buy the problems that you are so proudly creating.

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

The only way to improve on what the old English breeders founded, is to continue to breed to the standard they set.
I can not find anything in the standard that could be changed to make a better Yorkie. Leaving the tail, changing the color will not make a better dog, it will make a different dog. If you want to produce different, then throw out the standard, if not stick to it.

I have openned the mouths of alot of show dogs...you would be surprised how many have "iffy" bites..
I used to groom a Maltese champion with an underbite..the breeder was well known and told me it is hard to get a good bite in a Malt..I have no clue???
.

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

If you compare the "Old English" standard adopted by the Kennel Club of Great Britain in 1887 and the one adopted by the YTCA here you will notice that the one sentence on temperament that was in the British Standard as written was omitted from the one adopted here.

Now, I know that many show breeders look at temperament but they will breed a Conformation perfect bitch they are not going to show who has a poor temperament to a male with a good temperament to hopefully get a show quality puppy with a good temperament.

The "standard" also says nothing about breeding out life altering genetic health defects, but all good breeders do this automatically because they do care!

The fact that you find slight underbites in the show ring all the time is evidence that the "perfect bite" is difficult to get and is not life altering in many instances. It is these situations that make it impossible for anyone to argue to that this member is irresponsible if she breeds her female to produce pets. There are probably some breeds who have underbites genetically and they are not considered faults at all.

She is not trying to hurt or destroy the breed....and she came here for advice...not to be accused of not caring about her dog or the breed!

Originally Posted by diva pup

Really Kim? Then enlighten me, what exactly are you looking for in YOUR ideal of the perfect yorkie? Temperment? You bought one of your dogs over the internet, so that wasn't it. Color? Size? Service dog potential? I am really unclear as to what about the yorkie breed attracted you.
And I did read the whole thread, but you muddied up the original question to make it be about the YTCA, again.

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

I wish I knew where you come up with this stuff.

Check your facts.

"slight underbites in the show ring all the time is evidence that the "perfect bite" is difficult to get..." This is an inaccurate statement. It has been observed, not seen all the time. This is simply evidence that there are unethical show breeders.

I think the only one who has been accused of a breech of ethics is you. You continue to defend breeding dogs with serious faults.

AND, lastly - exactly what do you consider "bad" temperament in a Yorkie?

CJ

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

That is all I am saying.

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Summer~ I thought you might start understanding after the trouble you have had recently even getting a YTCA member to talk to you because you are a newbie. They do not like new people and don't let them into the "club" very often. Why associate with people like that?

Originally Posted by sylvan

and saying and saying and saying. You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone, but for goodness sake I think we've heard it now.
Must you counter everyone who has a different view with your opinion?

Originally Posted by sylvan

and saying and saying and saying. You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone, but for goodness sake I think we've heard it now.
Must you counter everyone who has a different view with your opinion?

Originally Posted by PinkMartini

Originally Posted by Ponyup

One thing I think the person considering breeding needs to know is that not taking into account the underbite there is always a risk when breeding. Since this dog is your pet you should know that there is always a chance the bitch or the pups might not make it. This is very hard to deal with. We have never bred dogs, but we breed quarter horses and it is very difficult for my mom. My mom had a colt die a few years back of west nile and she cried for days she was so sad. and this was a horse she planned to sell once it got to year old. there is a lot of emotional stake in breeding animals and you need to be sure you're ready for that too.
My mom loves her dog (a weimeriener) and so does anyone that comes in contact with her she a wonderful pet and has amazing conformaty. Expect that she was the runt and his a tiny compared to the breed standard (she weighs about 30lbs which is about 20 lbs under the standard), my mom loves her size, but realized that even if she found a small male she could run the risk of the pups getting too big to whelp and the dog might die. My mom wasn't willing to risk losing her pet and friend. So make sure you take into consideration that risk before making your finally decision.

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Who accused me of a breech of ethics?

I HAVE NOT DEFENDED BREEDING DOGS WITH SERIOUS FAULTS!!!!

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

Here's another one that's been sticking in my craw. "We care more about temperament..."????????????????

We used to breed/train/show Rotts. We got their hips x-rayed and OFA'd, elbows certified, eyes certified by a board-certified specialist, etc. 25 years later, health experts in the field were saying - to hell with the eyes, hips, etc. TEMPERAMENT IS MOST IMPORTANT.

And they were right. I hope it's obvious to all readers why.

What is it about the Yorkie temperament that concerns you and that you think could be improved by pet breeders? If you look at the breed in its entirety, wouldn't you think that health issues such as liver shunt, Legg-Perthes, luxating patella, etc would be at the top of the list and not temperament? The Yorkie gene pool is ENORMOUS and there is no need/excuse to breed any individual with an obvious genetic disqualifying fault.

I know you pride yourself on your logical argument, but your derive your logic from flawed premises and assumptions.

Again, I hope you will cease encouraging unethical breeding practices whether the goal is the show ring or pet home.

CJ

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Kathy~

I totally respect you as a person and as a breeder and I appreciate all the advice you are willing to give and believe me, we LISTEN!

BUT....you are missing what I and a few others are saying if you think we are condoning or encouraging the continued breeding of a dog with LP, severely bad bites or liver shunt. There is no way!

I mean no disprespect with this post and I hope I do not offend anyone as this is just my humble opinion and nothing more.

What we have a problem with are some "arbitrary" rules mostly about Outward Appearance , the so called "breed standard" that includes tail docking and other characterisitics but says little about temperament, as being what "pet" owners want or what they consider a "quality" yorkie! Most companion owners, which is the majority of yorkie fanciers btw, want good temperament over looks with health always first and foremost.

It is insulting to ask if we can sleep at night because we hold this opinion. It is different from yours but your definition of a "quality" yorkie is probably NOT my definition of a "quality" yorkie so it is also a bit patronizing to say that "some of you would not know a quality yorkie if it bit you in the ankle." It sure makes me wonder what you might think of MOST of the dogs on this site.

Personally, I think they are all QUALITY yorkies.....they may not be "show quality" but we who own them and love them do not care. I love floppy years, undocked tails and unique colors. Should I be ashamed of that?

I agree with you that breeders are blamed for way too much when it comes to the ailments these animals may get and I am constantly defending breeders for this from ignorant people who mainly just want someone to blame. I usually get villified for it but I understand how hard it is to be a breeder and I would never want the job. I also argue that people should be willing to pay more so that breeders are more fairly compensated for the time and effort and good qaulity care that goes into producing a litter of pups.

You are off topic in this thread when you talk about major health faults like LP and liver shunt. We are talking a barely discernable underbite in this dog with a vet who proclaimed her good to breed.

Originally Posted by wnalegria

No I am not off the topic- this is a genetic fault that can become worse- each time a dog with this condition is bred. DO the math.

Your reference to my concept of qaulity- beauty is in the eye of the beholder- but look at the number of posts on this site - that are owners complaining about the quality of their dog- it is overwhelming. get your Rose colored glasses off. Complaints are of size, coat, temperment, on and on and on. The same old line- my breeder lied to me- my breeder inbred this dog, my breeder took this puppy away too soon from it's mom- it was ilsolated as a puppy on and on.

It is insulting to this breed that you do not want to be responsible- it falls upon a few to clean up the mess that is made whem you breed dogs that have a health fault. A BAD BITE is a health issue- no ifs ands or buts.

Some of the folks on this forum do not listen- they want people to pat their head and hold their hand and say its ok- oh she is so smart- has such nice temperment you just breed. Wrong is wrong. I will repeat again not every dog or bitch should be bred.

Quality is brought up here all the time- I want and I have a dog that people do not have to ask my clients are those Yorkies. They say wow- what a nice Yorkie. As I said earlier you help reinforce why many breeders spay and neuter pet puppies before they are placed.

If I am patronizing so be it- maybe it will stop you from being called a puppymill, backyard breeder or just a bad breeder. If you want to breed do it -but do it with sound stock. That is all I ask.

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I have done nothing but answered questions and continued to reply when I was misunderstood or misquoted. It would be wrong to remain silent when I am asked a question, misquoted or misunderstood and it is unfair of you to criticize me for it.

This is a public forum for the free exchange of ideas and views to help us learn more about this wonderful breed we all love.

I appreciate and respect all view points. I may have responses but I never try to shove my views upon anyone and I "counter" because I have thoughts and opinions that have merit and may make someone think differently about a particular issue.

I do not understand animosity and criticim that crops up so often. :)

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

My arguments are in fact grounded in total logic and valid premises and assumptions.

My concern is that the "STANDARD" you toute and want to rely on is based 99% on outward appearance. There are only a very few words about temperament in the standard and there is nothing about serious genetic defects and life altering faults. Not a word.

My point is that I don't think the "standard" should be what is espoused but rather the ingrained ethics that any person has to "do the right thing" and not keep breeding an animal who has a serious life altering fault! It is not the Standard that controls, but rahter the ethics of integrity and doing the right thing. No one needs a "standard" to tell them this. It is common sense.

Originally Posted by sylvan

I think you enjoy the animosity and you purposely foster the arguments by not being content to just put in your two cents and be done. The steamroller tactics wrapped in sweetness are sickening and if I get booted for saying this to you, I am sure no one will notice, but I just can't stand the way you need to turn every breeding thread into a personal battle.

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

Well, with this post I think we have found out who breeds for what reasons. :) I know if I am looking for a new yorkie to bring into my home who I will be contacting in the future, as well to whom I would ever consider giving breeding rights to and who I wouldn't, from any sales of my pups. :eek: Who says you can't learn something everyday. lol !!! You can all keep the debate going but I think the record has already been set....

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Kathy~

My heart goes out to you and your family. Those health issues are truly "life altering" and I am so sorry that your children have had to suffer so. That is horrible.

Your last paragraph, is totally unfair, however.....Why bother to post that you want help or information? That is what we are here for and she continues to state that she hasn't made up her mind nd she cares what the people on here advise. I just think that is unkind. Of course she CARES about the breed, her dog and the puppies she produces....it is cruel to insinuate that she does not and it is not like you to say things like this!