You're right, it's too risky. However, how can someone guarantee that there are no bad bites EVER in their lines? As I mentioned earlier, don't all yorkies have the same ancestors? Don't they all somewhere even 10-20 generations back carry some type of recessive gene? You can breed to try to eliminate these genes and a good breeder will do that. However, I'd like to meet someone that can guarantee 100% that their lines are perfect without any faults.

Kathy~

I totally respect you as a person and as a breeder and I appreciate all the advice you are willing to give and believe me, we LISTEN!

BUT....you are missing what I and a few others are saying if you think we are condoning or encouraging the continued breeding of a dog with LP, severely bad bites or liver shunt. There is no way!

I mean no disprespect with this post and I hope I do not offend anyone as this is just my humble opinion and nothing more.

What we have a problem with are some "arbitrary" rules mostly about Outward Appearance , the so called "breed standard" that includes tail docking and other characterisitics but says little about temperament, as being what "pet" owners want or what they consider a "quality" yorkie! Most companion owners, which is the majority of yorkie fanciers btw, want good temperament over looks with health always first and foremost.

It is insulting to ask if we can sleep at night because we hold this opinion. It is different from yours but your definition of a "quality" yorkie is probably NOT my definition of a "quality" yorkie so it is also a bit patronizing to say that "some of you would not know a quality yorkie if it bit you in the ankle." It sure makes me wonder what you might think of MOST of the dogs on this site.

Personally, I think they are all QUALITY yorkies.....they may not be "show quality" but we who own them and love them do not care. I love floppy years, undocked tails and unique colors. Should I be ashamed of that?

I agree with you that breeders are blamed for way too much when it comes to the ailments these animals may get and I am constantly defending breeders for this from ignorant people who mainly just want someone to blame. I usually get villified for it but I understand how hard it is to be a breeder and I would never want the job. I also argue that people should be willing to pay more so that breeders are more fairly compensated for the time and effort and good qaulity care that goes into producing a litter of pups.

You are off topic in this thread when you talk about major health faults like LP and liver shunt. We are talking a barely discernable underbite in this dog with a vet who proclaimed her good to breed.

I would say 20 years back at least.

There are yorkies out there that fit the standard AND have good temperments. I wouldn't sacrifice one for the other to me, it should be a package deal. But, with an obvious fault, no matter how slight it is, I would not breed that bitch. I would find a female that fit the standard AND has a good temperment.

I also appreciate the breeders on here who express their opinions and share their experiences everyday but if the breeders who decided to develop the yorkshire terrier abided by this statement 100 years or so ago, there would be no yorkie!

What does "fit the standard mean" since I know you are not breeding perfect dogs all the time?

You come as close as you can to everything in the standard but you may be off on in a couple of areas and you hope the combination of the two dogs with different faults will compliment one another so the puppies are closer to perfect......right?

I think it is perfectly acceptable to do this outside the breed standard too if you want red and gold puppies like Julz' for instance or you want the tri-color like the Biewer or you like short short snouts. These breeders are carefully breeding health defects but breeding FOR characteristics that are not with the YTCA breed standard but are perfectly "okay" and actually wanted as traits by some.

What if someone likes floppy ears? Is it not okay to breed FOR this trait since we know that these dogs are more prone to ear infections even though some breeds have that as part of their "standard"?

This is an excellent point. Unfortunately as breeders, we are still limited by the knowledge available regarding the background of each line. It sounds simple to say that you just don't breed a dog with a poor bite to one that may carry a recessive DNA trait for this same fault. DNA research has not reached a point in regard to dog breeding that allows us to look at the DNA strands and say "OH, there is the gene for an underbite" . We must rely on getting very familiar with the traits shown and produced by each dog in previous generations of a prospective breeding dog's pedigree as far back in the line as possible. This is the only way to proceed with any confidence that you will not have a nasty surprise in a litter you produce. Even with this extraordinary amount of painstaking research. Mother Nature can still toss a curve ball in your direction, but as Kathy said, it's easier to sleep at night if you know you did your utmost to produce a healthy, quality pup.

very well said.

It is not a so called breed standard, it is the breed standard and it does describe temperment, which is an important trait for show AND pet.

When searching for a pet, attributes of both the dam/sire is what the puppy will be. A visable bite issue, coat issue or size issue in a parent has more than a 50% chance showing up in an offspring.

Well, with this post I think we have found out who breeds for what reasons. :) I know if I am looking for a new yorkie to bring into my home who I will be contacting in the future, as well to whom I would ever consider giving breeding rights to and who I wouldn't, from any sales of my pups. :eek: Who says you can't learn something everyday. lol !!! You can all keep the debate going but I think the record has already been set....

99% of the yYTCA standard is "conformation" or appearance and there is not even one full sentence on temperament.

It is not the LAW...it is a group of hobbyists... a club's idea of what makes the perfect yorkie. I do not belong to the club and yorkies are so much more than my hobby! I do not think there is a single YTCA member on this board so why are you all acting like their "standard" is the yorkie law? I just do not choose to adhere to their "standard" as I have my own characteristics and traits I like.

Summer~ I thought you might start understanding after the trouble you have had recently even getting a YTCA member to talk to you because you are a newbie. They do not like new people and don't let them into the "club" very often. Why associate with people like that?

Kim,What is with your obvious contempt for the YTCA and what they stand for and the standard? It is wearing a little thin, nobody can say anything about the standard or the YTCA without you coming back with this yorkie law crap.
What standards are you adhering to anyway? You don't breed, you buy pets.

If you read the the entire thread, you would understand my point of view as I made it very clear.

I can have "standards" as a purchaser representing the characterisitics that I like and what I look for. You don't have to be breeder to have characterisitics you prefer over others.

So basically you're playing on the words then. You speak of "standard" as what YOU will accept as faults for your pet. The rest of us have been speaking in terms of the "standard" as the ideal for the yorkie as the YTCA and the AKC have set.

Did you read the entire thread?

I have said throughout that the "breed standard" as defined by the YTCA is simply an arbitrary guidleine set up by a club or hobbyists who have decided what THEIR ideal yorkie is. I am not amember of the club and no one else here is either so we can all set up whatever "standards" we want depending in what is important to us. We may use some of theirs and we may decline some of theirs.

For example, I think tail docking is cruel and should be banned so it is not part of my ideal standard for the yorkie. I like yorkies of different colors so my standard wouldn't discriminate against chocolates and partis as the YTCA one does, etc....

If you do not plan on showing your yorkie the YTCA standards are not controlling.

Hi Wolftrap,
I had a similar situation. I bought a beautiful female puppy who had a perfect bite. . until about 6 months of age. It changed overnight. I kept hoping that the lower jaw just had a growth spurt, but it never corrected. I had wanted to breed her and felt conflicted. I finally decided that I should have her spayed and not perpetuate the flaw. I decided to look at the overall quality of the breed instead of my love for the dog. As it turned out I am glad that I made that decision. This dog has become more aggressive after turning about 15 months. The poor breeding techniques spilled over into her temperment. If the breeders were not careful about the bite it is unlikely they were careful about other aspects of the parents. I hope this helps. I love my yorkie, under bite, bitchey and all, but in the end I am glad I made the decision that I have. We all need more than one yorkie. If I decide to breed it will be with a show quality dog. I feel that I have to protect the integrity of the breed--what made the yorkies so special to begin with. We shouldn't veer from that objective.
Iluvyorkies

Yep, sure did. Don't you dare try to turn this on me. You're the one wanting to play on words thru this whole thing. Why you seem to feel it necessary to bring up things that this thread doesn't deal with is beyond me. This thread was started by a person who wanted to know whether or not their yorkie should be bred based on the fact that their yorkie has an underbite. Nowhere in their question did I see the words "tail docking" or "different color" or even anything at all about THE standard (not THEIR standard as you seem to want to put it). You seem to want to ignore the fact that there IS a standard. The standard is the standard for numerous reasons. I'm sorry that you don't feel the need to understand what those reasons are. You must be above the standard. Pity me.

You are not "getting it". I have never "played on words". I have explained myself clearly throughout and it is all very logical. There is no way I can be above or below or even with the "standard" you refer to because I do not believe in it. I believe differently is all.

I have stayed on topic the entire time. This member is being told that the only reason to breed is to perfect the breed according to the YTCA breed standard which doesn't like even "slight" underbites, so I was merely pointing out that the YTCA standard isn't everyone's idea of the ideal yorkie, and if the underbite is not severe and will not be life altering and her vet encourages the breeding then she feel comfortable with her decision to breed her dog. She has been responsible and done her research. She will not be a bad breeder just because she chooses to breed dogs which would not win in a YTCA dog show.

That's all.

If peoples want Yorkies with underbite , why are they always looking for reputable breeders ? If it is only for health guarantee , they are out of the track.

What is so bad with breeders that shows their dogs ?

A reputation is so hard to build but so easy to destroy .

I have to agree i think mistakes happen. but most show people want to do best by the breed out of love of the breed
i raise a rare breed called toy australian shepherds and the only reason to breed in my book is to improve the breed
people call me all the time asking why do you charge 1500 while others charge 500 to 700 i have to go over the 3 year wait i give each dog bitch and stud to make shure there are no missed lineage signs of seisures two hip checks 12 months apart Cerf test to check eyes Genitic balancing act correct choices in color of dam and sire and still they buy the 500 dollar puppy and cry when it go's blind and deaf. when you choose to buy the puppie with the mother that has a not quite right bite what else has that breeder skimped on ... what can you not see. to be a responsible breeder i must have ample time for my kids and be willing to do right by the breed if that means i fix a stud i paid 2500 dollars for and find him a pet home thats a price i pay. so many people think breeding is great income ...perhaps for my vet but thats about it ! ask a breeder that has a program you respect what it takes to be that do you have the time the overhead income and the ability to know what is breed quality.

Because a dog has wonderful temperment does not mean that you should breed it. Yes we want loving happy temperments in this breed but we aslo want dogs that are physically sound.

My 27 year old daughter has wonderful temperment. Do I want her to have chidren no- will she no. She has a physicall- genetic disorder called sticklers syndrome. ( all three of my children have this disorder) WE did not know that I was a carrier and my husband.

I have three beautiful kids who suffer from blindness-deafness, severe learning disorders-joint pain-(joints fall out of the sockets causing evtreme pain) they have had shoulders, hips, knees, ankle, wrist, elbow, back, kidney,
brain, eyes, ears and numerous other surguries because of genetics. They all have wonderful temperment all will pass their health issues on to their children- so should they have biological children- NO WAY IN HELL. I love my kids and live with the pain everyday of what we did not know- how things might have been different for them. The eldest is not married- doubt if she will ever find someome who has enough love to take her with all her health issues. The other two are going down the same road.

When you breed a dog/bitch that has health issues that can affect the puppies you are responsible for any pain that you have caused the breed and the unlucky people who buy those dogs. Temperment is not the reason why you breed your dog.

But then who cares- if you end up breeding a bunch of unsound puppies the new owners can struggle with the problems- if too much to handle - place them in rescue- put them down- or give them to a puppy mill who can really breed that defect like crazy. Wow we really helped our breed. Not every dog or bitch it intended to be bred.

Glad that I try and keep my pet puppies long enough to spay and neuter. And people wonder why the show breeders can be cold or distant- you get tired of beating your head against the wall.

Why bother to post that you want help or information. You have made up your mind what of what you are going to do. You don't care about the breed, your dog, the puppies that you will produce and the folks who will buy the problems that you are so proudly creating.

I am glad too that I can keep my pet quality pups and have them spayed and neutered before leaving my home . This way there is no argument about breeding . Actually , I have a little girl that I am keeping for showing , her sisters will be spayed .

Really Kim? Then enlighten me, what exactly are you looking for in YOUR ideal of the perfect yorkie? Temperment? You bought one of your dogs over the internet, so that wasn't it. Color? Size? Service dog potential? I am really unclear as to what about the yorkie breed attracted you.
And I did read the whole thread, but you muddied up the original question to make it be about the YTCA, again.

Reading all these posts , I am really glad that I don't think about breeding my girls . Of course , I know they are beauties but never wanted to have pups out of them . I really enjoy having them home with me .

Okay. You are being irresponsible advising/encouraging someone to breed a dog with a serious fault. Stop it.

The breed standard exists to maintain breed type. It exists to assure that Yorkies continue to look and act like Yorkies. This is America and if you want to go your own way and breed dogs that don't conform to the standard - go for it. It's just that at a certain point, the puppies you are producing can no longer be called Yorkies. But it is irresponsible to breed an animal with a serious fault like a bad bite. It contributes to the deterioration of the health in the future. It should not be done.

CJ

Kathy,
My heart goes out to you, although I know you posted your personal information to make a point. I hope that your example makes some see the light. I have to agree with you 100%. No matter how slight the under bite it doesn't matter it is a under bite no matter how you look at it. Showing or not showing it does not matter, you shouldn't breed a genetic problem Under any circumstances :( I have to take my losses as females mature and not become what I had hoped. My advice to you Wolftrap is that their are plenty of yorkie breeders out there, that are breeding pet quality, rise above that and breed the best you can, for the perfect little yorkie possible, cut your losses with this female and start again, I know it is a set back, but your reputation is on the line. I don't think there was much support for you with the idea to breed her, and there was a reason for that. :) There are a lot of members that are trying to lead you in the right direction if you do want to start breeding.

Here's another one that's been sticking in my craw. "We care more about temperament..."????????????????

We used to breed/train/show Rotts. We got their hips x-rayed and OFA'd, elbows certified, eyes certified by a board-certified specialist, etc. 25 years later, health experts in the field were saying - to hell with the eyes, hips, etc. TEMPERAMENT IS MOST IMPORTANT.

And they were right. I hope it's obvious to all readers why.

What is it about the Yorkie temperament that concerns you and that you think could be improved by pet breeders? If you look at the breed in its entirety, wouldn't you think that health issues such as liver shunt, Legg-Perthes, luxating patella, etc would be at the top of the list and not temperament? The Yorkie gene pool is ENORMOUS and there is no need/excuse to breed any individual with an obvious genetic disqualifying fault.

I know you pride yourself on your logical argument, but your derive your logic from flawed premises and assumptions.

Again, I hope you will cease encouraging unethical breeding practices whether the goal is the show ring or pet home.

CJ