In-Breeding what comes of it????

[KYBLUE]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

This was meant to be ONE post, but for some reason I get cut off...

If you have an option to add this male to your breeding program, is this male from someone you trust..a mentor..? IS he from a reputable breeder..I do not think so since you are asking for advise here... that concerns me..not that you are asking for advise, but the fact you have not given any insight as to what the breeder says about your plans...of course that is your business, but it helps sort this out.
Since the breeder did a close inbreeding and is willing to sell for breeding, I pretty much write this breeder off...harsh, but breeding is such a serious undertaking, we have to be hard on people..there is little room for error...we are dealing with a living creature..we place these puppies with unsuspecting pet lovers who can wind up with a pack of problems, that cost them a bundle at the vets and break their hearts...

There was a time NO one heard of liver shunt..then there was a close inbreeding and we started seeing it in litters traced to this breeding..now we all know about liver shunt. I think LS could have been kept buried deep in the genes if it was not for inbreeding..it was forced out..is this good or bad..I say, bad..we could have gone a life time with out it ever popping up, right?

You might say that is good to inbreed and force it out, but the problem is this...many breeders will never share the genetic problems in their lines..so you buy a puppy thinking all is well, and you are later faced with problems...lt is nothing to try and correct..you avoid it by S/N dogs who produce it..it is foolish to inbreed to see if shunts are in the line..it produces so much suffering for dog and owner..not worth it..avoid it..and that goes for any disease IMO..

I have no desire to inbreed to see if there are bad bites, bad knees, bad anything in my Yorkies..avoid as much as you can by breeding sound dogs to other sound dogs...not too close, outcrossing when necessary to Yorkies of like type to preserve type...
I wish you good luck..and please for give my screaming...! The only thing I ever scream about is the breed...it is all about preserving the breed.

PS..thanks Vee..you understand me so well...LOL

[DvlshAngel985]

I know I was a little late to the party, but I was going to post then realized I had to go to church! So if my comment is a little late, SORRY!!!

[jennylee333]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Can you allow me to rant once in a great while and forgive me...?? I rarely scream, but some times it keeps me from going insane...thanks for you understanding.

I do understand the ranting from time to time. I am TRYING to do the right thing and get a good start. (A house built on a good foundation will be standing a long time from now!!!) Right. I asked aquestion and I got several anwers....The only reason I asked was because the breeder and I had talked several times (via email) and I REALLY like the looks of this young man (BTW he is 2 and proven) and then we talked on the phone and she dropped the bomb.

It truley upset me and I wanted the advice of the TYers on line. I am glad that you gave me your advice. It just came off a little harsh!

And I was already upset that after all the hours of searching and just when I think that I may have found some one that has a beautiful male.........he is a product of inbreeding!

[jennylee333]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I do not understand your question...please rephrase it..

I am sorry, I was saying, basically, that there is NO possible way of ever being 100% sure that you are not producing something with some sort of deffect?

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by jennylee333

I am sorry, I was saying, basically, that there is NO possible way of ever being 100% sure that you are not producing something with some sort of deffect?

From my understanding, no, there are no guarantees. The best that you could hope for is to try to breed sound dogs with other sound dogs and making sure you look at their lineage before hand as other experienced breeders have recommended on this thread. That way you increase your chance of healthy puppies.

[jennylee333]

BTW he is 2 years old and proven...

My original question was.........How will his offspring be affected from him being a product of inbreeding....

[jennylee333]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

From my understanding, no, there are no guarantees. The best that you could hope for is to try to breed sound dogs with other sound dogs and making sure you look at their lineage before hand as other experienced breeders have recommended on this thread. That way you increase your chance of healthy puppies.

I do understand this.....I guess I should just let it go and for get it......

[paulapoo]

I'm not a breeder, but I would go with your gut. If you were upset when you heard about it, pass. Something better will come along. Sometimes patience pays off in the long run!

[DvlshAngel985]

Sorry if things didn't work out the way you would have liked. If the advice sounded harsh or mean, I'm pretty sure it's because people here had all the best intentions and didn't want you to go through any heartbreak over sick or dying puppies.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by jennylee333

BTW he is 2 years old and proven...

My original question was.........How will his offspring be affected from him being a product of inbreeding....

Okay let's say that a genetic defect is associated with a sex linked gene. As a product of an inbreeding he would than be homozygous recessive for that gene. Because it is a sex linked gene it is carried by the male but shown by the female. He is bred and his daughter now is affected by this genetic defect. Inbreeding may make him prepotent for some excellent qualities but it would also make him prepotent for any bad ones that was in his line as well.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by jennylee333

I am sorry, I was saying, basically, that there is NO possible way of ever being 100% sure that you are not producing something with some sort of deffect?

You are right..no 100% way to know..if a male sires puppies with perhaps 3 to 4 different blood line bitches, resulting in at least 15 pups and all are free of serious genetic defects, you have a good idea what he will do in the future...and usually, but not always you will see bad bites, structure faults, non-life threathening problems with this number.

Remember, many genetic problems skip a generation, so this male may sire pups that are fine and then next generation falls a part...and unfortunately, not all problems reveal themself in the first 12 months...PRA can take years. As a rule Legg Calve Perthes shows around 8 to 10 months..it can make you afraid to sell anything if you use this male...and vets are known to advise pet owners to look at pedigrees for inbreeding when problems occur...whether it is genetic or not...

[C C Kent]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Okay let's say that a genetic defect is associated with a sex linked gene. As a product of an inbreeding he would than be homozygous recessive for that gene. Because it is a sex linked gene it is carried by the male but shown by the female. He is bred and his daughter now is affected by this genetic defect. Inbreeding may make him prepotent for some excellent qualities but it would also make him prepotent for any bad ones that was in his line as well.

I wonder how many of these inbred puppies were used in breeding programs knowing the increased risk, but because they did have the ability to improve type, they decided to take the risk?

I know of a Springer Spaniel line that was producing Champions left and right, but later they were going blind at five years old. Even an ethical, experienced breeder could be producing a serious flaw for several years before they knew it.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by C C Kent

I wonder how many of these inbred puppies were used in breeding programs knowing the increased risk, but because they did have the ability to improve type, they decided to take the risk?

I know of a Springer Spaniel line that was producing Champions left and right, but later they were going blind at five years old. Even an ethical, experienced breeder could be producing a serious flaw for several years before they knew it.

This is so true, we saw alot of the results of this in the latter 70's from the breeding practises of the 60's in Cocker Spaniels. Breeding is always a crap shoot but when you're breeding this closely it's also a 2 edged sword.

[jennylee333]

So, basically, his offspring may not show any signs until latter in life and maybe not at all....and then problems may skip a generation and then pop up....and any or all of that COULD be because of him being in-bred........BUT could it be some other reason????

[YorkieRose]

It is a matter of odds.....Breeders try to tip the odds in their favor and produce sound pups...there are a list of factors in doing this...not just genes.
When you inbreed, you reduce your odds..visialize a pot full of genes, with each breeding you have to stick you hand in a pull out sets of genes for a puppy..when the gene pool is reduced by so many of the identical ancestors, your odds of pulling out the bad genes are greatly increased...I have yet to find any line with no faults...the worst you may get is bad bites or poor top lines..BUT it will bother you greatly if you are serious about breeding..you will look at that undershot jaw, kick yourself..and God forbid you get a life threathening problem..your life will be nothing but stress, worry and tears.

He may sire sound puppies, he may not, you have to gamble and find out..I perfer to tilt the odds in my favor..I can not take the stress of a seriously ill puppy...been there, done that..and have the scars on my heart to prove it..

PS..I have never in 35 yrs seen an inbreed Yorkie not produce problems at some point, especially if their offspring are bred.