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Old 06-09-2008, 03:54 PM   #1
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Default To Test Or Not To

OK i feel i am in a dilema

i have my puppies scheduled to be shunt tested ok now her is my problem i have held off giving puppy shot's and they are now 11 .5 week's old

after reading dr center's recommendation of this

Serum Bile Acids are also helpful in the making a more definitive overall picture in diagnosing the presence of a Liver Shunt and is usually taken when the blood work is indicative there is a shunt present. It is possible to test the Bile Acids in young puppies. However, unless the puppy is showing apparent signs of PSS a Bile Acid Test can throw false readings. It is recommended an apparently healthy puppy be a minimum of two pounds and 6 to 9 months old to test the Bile Acids accurately.

what do you do we have parvo going around in our area and i am scared to death and need to get there shot's started

one of the pup's is under 2 pounds and the other is just over 2 but my problem is that they said 6 to 9 months is best i want to get my shots started
that you can get false readings on a younger pup

so what do you do if all these people want a 12 to 16 week old puppies and want the breeder to do a test how do you win and which way do you go

please advise
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Old 06-09-2008, 04:38 PM   #2
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Old 06-09-2008, 04:47 PM   #3
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Rose, I would go ahead and get them their shots immediately. I would cover LS in my warranty but I would not advise that the pups be tested unless regular blood panels indicated a problem and than only after 6 months of age.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:01 PM   #4
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IMO, many breeders and vets opinions..it is a waste of time and money before 6 months..BA is just not that accurate before that time...and when a non-symtomatic, otherwise healthy, active Yorkie that tests high, it should never be assumed it has LS...on a show forum, a 3 yr bitch was ill and vet said tests indicated a shunt..she actually had colitis...and recovering well.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRose View Post
IMO, many breeders and vets opinions..it is a waste of time and money before 6 months..BA is just not that accurate before that time...and when a non-symtomatic, otherwise healthy, active Yorkie that tests high, it should never be assumed it has LS...on a show forum, a 3 yr bitch was ill and vet said tests indicated a shunt..she actually had colitis...and recovering well.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:21 PM   #6
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Then you have all these people on here hollering red flag red flag when a breeder hasn't tested a twelve or sixteen week old puppy that is sold. do they expect us to keep them until six months old? You guys have seen it many times. people telling people to run from breeders that don't bile acid test their puppies. or saying don't buy. Unless it's a show puppy, I don't see any need to keep a puppy for six months old . based on the latest research, I think the people that are saying red flad and etc are very behind on things and uneducated in this test . But, Rose, I, too, would go ahead and give the shots and forget about the test. Your gaurantee covers Liver Shunt. no one wants to put a sick puppy out there but the way the bottom has dropped out of sales, it is almost cheaper to refund purchase price on a pet puppy, if it did get sick, God forbid, than it is to pay for all this big tests people want to demand from small breeders.

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Old 06-09-2008, 05:24 PM   #7
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I think this is a great topic, thanks for starting this thread!! I have often wondered about the same thing. People want their puppies tested before getting them but at that young that test is not accurate so what good would it do?
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:36 PM   #8
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WELL I AM GOING TO WAIT AND GIVE PUPPY SHOT'S HERE IN ABOUT 5 MINUTES

i feel i was trying to do the right thing but at a 100 dollars a test i can not afford it to be wrong because they are to young and have to retest
and my babies getting there shot's going is more important to me at this point
and if clients do not want to buy my babies because i have not tested i will show them what dr center's say's and if they want to put a deposit down and me keep them until they are 6 months than i will do so
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:11 PM   #9
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I would give the shots and put it in the contract about LS...I think the shots are more important at this point.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:11 PM   #10
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Hi Rose!!
I hope you remember me. : )

I wanted to comment on your question..as I too feel that a BAT test is just not warrented at this young of an age.

I recently had my 1st litter out of my Biewer's which consisted of one gorgeous female puppy. Both parents were BAT tested normal. DNA'd, Patella normal.
The pup recieved her 1st puppy shot at 8 weeks of age, and I had my vet run a full blood panel at 10 weeks of age. I wanted to make sure that the liver, kidney's, etc were all working normal before sending her home at 12 weeks. If that blood test would have showed any abnormal numbers..I would have proceeded to the more advanced testing.

Now...I will admit...I was horrified to see that the blood sample was aggressively taken from her jugular vein and seemed to upset me more then it did the puppy. But it helped to show me and more importantly...her new owner...that this puppy was healthy and God willing...will stay that way. : )

I am expecting my 2nd litter of Biewer's this Sunday...and will do the same routine as far as LS screening is concerned.

I hope all is well with you and yours.

Take care,

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Old 06-10-2008, 03:29 AM   #11
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Some breeders do a 8 or 12 wk test and think if it is normal they are home free...even a pup with a shunt can have an acceptable test result early on....if the pup goes on to be a LS pup, the breeder will remind buyer of the normal early results and refuse compensation...they will say it is an accquired shunt....
I, simply say I will pay for the 6 month test and make good on any problem pup (in writing)...if they feel they can not trust me, then go elsewhere...I perfer, not to deal with anyone who is leery of me anyway...
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:17 AM   #12
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why can other's not understand these babies are so tiny and everyone screams about testing these guy and that is fine with me

but than they want a baby puppy so you have 2 way's test and hold shot's so they don't mess with the out come and risk babies

2 hold until 6 months and than test and than they say well there to old ugggggg i want a little puppy to bond with
and they wonder why pupies prices go higher we have to inccur all the prices of these test the shot's and raising them until 6 months by than yes you can see just about what they will be as an adult dog and than the puppy is attached to you and you to them

so it is a no win you either do or don't and with testing them young is not recommmened
and they have to take blood twice from a tiny puppy that is scary alone
i know a 2 pound puppy does not have to much to give

so i don't know what is right any more i just do they very best i can and everyone want's to b**ch about the breeder not doing things right
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:24 AM   #13
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Rose, the thing is, do not let PEOPLE jerk you around on this stuff. You have to do what is right for the puppy. Not the buyer and if people don't like it, then as I often tell them, they are welcome to look elsewhere for a puppy.
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:25 AM   #14
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I agree will all of you on this. I feel it is best to put shots off until the pups are at least 10 weeks old. If you have a puppy that seems exceptionally small, hypoglycemic or a picky eater then you might want to wait a little longer on the shots and and have a blood panel done on that puppy.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:22 AM   #15
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I think at some point buyers have to trust their breeder to be breeding healthy dogs, and I really do think they have to understand buying a puppy is still a risk...life is risky. Buyers who want a 100% guarantee that nothing will ever go wrong with their puppy need to buy a stuffed animal...there is your guarantee. All you can do it find a breeder who has good ethics when it comes to breeding and caring for their dogs...not always an easy task. Even great breeders who breed only healthy adults can have a problem pop up...I have always said that the integrity of a breeder is indicated by how they handle the situation...not because they are in the situation.

We start vaccines a 8 weeks old, but only if the puppies are 2 lbs...if not we wait until 11-12 weeks old to start them. The small ones still go in too at 8 weeks to get a checkup. Between 10-13 weeks old is when we have a liver panel done on them, this checks all the enzymes related to liver function. If this test were ever abnormal...we would re-test in 2-3 weeks and if still abnormal then we would check BA's...and of course continue testing if they were elevated.

The liver panel is not going to catch every genetic liver problem and if we had a yorkie diagnosed with LS we would stand behind it. I do know that most LS is diagnosed by first having abnormal liver enzymes. While I do not think it will catch every case...I do believe that it is better than doing nothing at all. We never accept a deposit on a puppy until it has been vet-checked and had a liver panel with normal results done.

I personally do not think that BA testing is very reliable, but it is all we have right now and we have to remember that it is not perfect. We just have to do what we can to ensure we are breeding healthy adults unrelated to LS carriers or dogs affected by LS.

Just a note too on the blood draw...yes I do think this can be a little traumatic for these guys but agree it is worth it. The blood is drawn from the jugular because you can obtain a better (non-hemolyzed) sample much faster than you can with drawing it from their tiny little legs. The veins in their legs are so darn small you risk collapsing it while you draw the sample...this hurts!

More than anything I think it is a little scary for them...whenever we go in for blood draw day the techs look at us like...ok girls you need to be breeding a larger breed...lol. Poor girls they hate doing it just as much as we do!
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