The Great Debate..."Breeder" or "Backyard Breeder"
 

First off...I do NOT want this thread to turn ugly, lol. I am posting this for debate and learning on both sides. I am not what you guys call a "breeder" nor am I what you guys call a "backyard breeder" at this time. I am a new owner of a female Yorkie and we may breed her at some point. For the purpose of learning and debate....I am going to assume and post as it would be that I am going to breed her.

I invite all "breeders" and "backyard breeders" and pet owners to post. Please, no need to get heated in here. Ha.

Ok, after reading some of the posts in the breeder section here I am a little confused about what is going on. The term "wanted and unwanted" pups is used alot when someone comes in here who wants to breed their "pet" Yorkie. I am curious...what makes your pups as a breeder wanted and my Yorkies pups unwanted? If I breed mine to another Yorkie then why would yours be more desired than mine?

Also, if I am a new owner and am interested in breeding her at some point...do my research and feel confident that I can do it...what makes that any different than you when you first started breeding?

Also, there is much talk from the "breeders" about unwanted pups from people who post as new owners and advice for them to go rescue one from the Humane Society or Sheter. Aren't you as "breeders" also contributing to the dog population? The same could be said of you....spay and neuter your Yorkies and go volunteer as a person who takes in placed females with their pups till they find homes for them. No? It seems that when you tell a newbie to go get one from the shelter to help with the overpopulation of dogs...and then you are breeding numerous litters a year....a bit odd, no?

And....after reading a few threads that "newbies" started for help...I see that the risks of breeding this breed and the potential costs come up. But if that pet owner did their research and are in full knowledge of the risks and cost....why does that still get the "breeders" goat? Everytime a "breeder" breeds her female she is at the very same risks and costs as the "newbie". Your female and her female are no different. What happens will happen to either.

Well, let's start there. Again, I am NOT in anyway heated...just looking to learn and debate this topic.

Oh no...
 

You didnt...even want to go there.
:::: sniff sniff ::::
Good luck with your thread
And I dont think I ever "seen" you before.
So welcome to YorkieTalk :)

Sounds like its already a heated discussion!!LOL Sorry in advance for any tpos as I just got stung by a scorpion on my right hand and it is numb and hurtslike an sob. I think that there is a correct way to do breeding practices and a wrong way. Most people start out with out a mentor and no direction. some onky think about the $$$ they can make and do make by cutting corners and startng out with sub=standard specimens of the breed. Alot of people breed sub-standard yorkies that are family pets to re-claim the $$ they spent on her and to let the kids see the miricle of life(or death as it all to often turns out).I see no harm in breeding if it is done right. That means you need to get all the hadlth screening done before even dreaming about breeding. Same with the stud that will be used. I think that any dog bred should only be a good specimen of the breed as described by the YTCA standard. Have a great mentor, preferrable a person who shows their dogs. Thsi mentor can evaluate your breeding prospect. If everything checks out , then great, breed your girl. I also believe that all pups shouds be sold on spay/neuter/limited registration as you dont want any of those babies to end up in mills. And now with all of the alternative registries that will register anything that has 4 legs as a breed, its better to have the pups spayed and neutered first before selling them. There is alos a right and wrong way to threat and house these dogs. Byb's usually dont care enough about them except to only give them the basics as long as they make a profit. Hobby breeders and exhibitors usuallytake much better care of the dogs as this is there passion, it is not a money making endeavor.

Well got to goas my hand it very painful.

:eek:

What? You are making me nervous, lol. I am honestly just wanting to talk about this in a civil way. Yikers...am I gonna get hit hard or something?

:confused::confused:

no comment

YorkieKist....thanks for the post. (I am still alive, lol)

Ok, let's talk a bit about the money part of it. How much do you figure it cost per pup. You dock, feed, vet fees, vacs...etc. How much do you figure you spend on one pup till it reaches it's new home?

Honestly...don't feel like you can't comment. I am playing the "devil's advocate" here to learn and debate. No problems on my end. Comment away, please!

Hoo boy....good luck with this topic not getting heated.

Since you included we pet owners...I'll throw my 2¢ in.

I believe the issues come into play when someone is wanting to breed a dog over standard or wants their dog to "experience" parenthood. Those two will raise objections.

Personally I don't think anyone should be breeding...designer breeds...and I use that term lightly. The shelters are loaded with "designer breeds"...

The "standard" comment is certainly fair. Is it bad to want the "experience" if one had homes lined up? Just a question.

ok that depends on each litter if you liver profile or not have puppies vet checked tail's docked dew claw's shot's a quality food puppy pad's milk supplement if needed benbac subque fluids if needed i can go on and on i usually have mine vet checked at least twice and liver profling is about 65 per puppy i have at least 600 to 800 in a litter before they ever leave my home not including a c-section if it is required

I am not a breeder but I am a Yorkie owner.

There are certain things I look for in a "breeder".
The way I look at it is this.
There are good breeders and there are not good breeders (mills, backyard...).
"Breeders" are the ones who will do health screening on their dogs, sell them at the right time, not breed more than two or three kinds of dogs, have sanitary living conditions for the animals (and I prefer this is in the breeder's house, not a kennel), provide at least a one year health guarantee, reserve the right of first refusal if the pup needs to be rehomed... The part that does get fuzzy with even good breeders is how much testing should be done. I prefer that the pup is more expensive and more tests are run on the parents then selling a cheap Yorkie who has a bigger chance of being diseased.

As long as you are doing your research and planning to health screen and put the money into it AND your dogs are standard with healthy lines, I don't think there is any reason someone should tell you not to breed. After all, if you reserve the right of first refusal your pups will never contribute to the number of homeless pets. They will always have a home with you if they need one.

Puppy mills and backyard breeders are the opposite of what I'd call a breeder.
The dogs live in unsanitary conditions.
They aren't health screened.
The pups are sold way too young.
You can take the pup to the pound if you get tired of it.
They don't care about bettering the breed.

That is my two cents.:)

What I don't understand is why anyone would want to breed their pet? If you purchase a pet quality yorkie it is (I assume) for companionship. Why would you put your companion at risk when they are not capable of producing the kind of quality puppy that would make it worth the risk? When I decided to go beyond being a pet owner and become a breeder I started a year of intensive research. After attending shows and studying conformation I decided on my type and got an imagine in my mind of what I wanted to produce. From there I looked at different kennels until I found one that I liked and I purchased a dog for breeding and for showing. That person became my breeder and first mentor. Since then I have purchased brood bitches with associations to that line that would be a good match for Connor. The dogs are health screened, I know their line, and I have a goal in mind. I not only study to learn to develop an eye but lean on the knowledge of judges and experienced breeders/exhibitors. I do not believe in breeding pet quality dogs and bitches or breeding blindly, too much heartache has come as a result of that route. My dogs have become my pets but I am not a pet owner, I am a breeder/exhibitor. I breed for quality, health, and temperment and not for the fun of it or for money.

After all, if you reserve the right of first refusal your pups will never contribute to the number of homeless pets. They will always have a home with you if they need one.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Instead of opening this thread and opening up old wounds, why don't you use the search feature? There is a lot of very valuable info there and several other threads about this.

Who wants the experience...you or your female? Dogs aren't like people...they don't pine for puppies.

If you mean yourself...I will say to do it correctly (and others have posted how it should be done)...it can be expensive just for the experience. Expensive and heartbreaking if something should happen to your female.

What Sugar's mom said...
 

:yeahthat::goodpost:

Do you want to get into breeding? Or do you just want to breed her one time? If you don't want to really get into breeding, I would suggest spaying her and not breeding her at all, there are sooo many risks involved (just do a search on here), and if she's just a pet it wouldn't be fair for her or you to breed her. I am a pet owner, and I wouldn't want to breed my babies because they are my pets, and I wouldn't want to put them through any risks, or be stuck raising puppies that I don't know how to raise. Whatever your decision is though, just make sure you do a lot of research, there's so much more to breeding then the obvious. Good luck in your decision!

One more thing, with your pet overpopulation question, I think the breeders say that to mainly a lot of people who just want puppies, or their friends want a dog like theirs, etc. I don't think they ever meant that their puppies are more desirable then anothers. This is just my guess though, like I said I'm not a breeder, so maybe a breeder can correct me if I'm wrong.

You make a great point. I (being your "average Joe" petowner) never thought about the purpose for breeding which is to maintain the breed standard. I bought my Bella as my companion, my baby. I'm not educated enough in this breed to know if she's "good enough" to be used to breed but I don't intend to breed her now so it doesn't matter. But the question should be asked, if you are considering breeding your pet/companion, does he/she meet the standard or is he/she "pet quality"? Obviously there are other things to consider but this particular one is one that I had never thought about. You see this beautiful furbaby who's perfect in your mind BUT is she/he really up to par for the purpose of breeding? I've learned so much on this site!:thumbup:

My two coppers a mill or a greeder
 

Is anyone who breeds out of standard and I mean way out there, any one who uses the words teacup. period I dona even care if it's a darn mouse. Anyone who has females and breeds them every bloody heat. Anyone who breeds anything unless it's like the very very last of a certain line without a ton of research,sweet and love,and a good vet report stating yes she's healthy enough, over the age of 6. {general consenses is that is the cut off age} Anyone who can't even tell you when the last time they touched,loved on or even looked at their puppies or their dogs. Anyone who keeps their dogs or puppies in cages. { I don't mean crate training either}

JMO -
Great question! Some people consider them hobby breeders and not back yard breeders if they take care of their dogs. But what if they are breeding sub-standard quality? I too think that when someone breeds their own dog/s - the dogs need to be of good quality and as close as possible to the standard. That does not mean you have to show, but at least get them evaluated to see if they are worth breeding!
One person said, "Well, if I have homes for them what should it matter?" It does matter if those people breed the pups (when old enough) and they are not of good quality. All it does is pull the quality of our breed down.

Cost - wow! It can be very expensive! I have a litter of two pups, included is stud fee, travel to another state for the breeeding and returning to pick up my bitch. Of course testing before breeding. C-section, vet visit for mom after the c-section (later that week due to an infection), pups dew claw removal and tail docking, add in 4 week check up, 7 week check up and now 10 week check up - each check up is about 60 - 70.00 each time and I have one more to go. Not to mention litter paper fee, no sleep the first 7 days, etc... And I almost lost my bitch to the infection. Oh yea, add two more vet visits - Knight eat poop and was throwing up so took him to the vet and Trey got sick (vet forgot to worm him). So it does add up. You do not make any money on pups!!

All this is just my experience and my opinion. :D
T.

I think this link pretty well covers BYB vs Responsible Breeder.
Lawrence County Humane Society Abuse and Adoption Center

This is the site I was looking for - Perfect! I love the definitions and comparison.
T.

Yikes....I left for a funeral and there is a ton of post I need to answer...I tonight..I am getting company.

One thought before I forget.....the "breeders" aren't saying how their breeding isn't populating the dogs in this world....they are just commenting on them doing it the "right way" and then it's all good. I'd like to hear more on that.

So if a breeders pup has 3 pups at 1500 bucks a pup...that is 7500 dollars. The cost of the entire litter is say 800 bucks if no c-section is required. I'd say that the breeder is making a huge profit, no? What does it matter then if joe-blow makes a few bucks?

Again, I am playing the other side here...I'm not huffy, lol. Just throwing out the questions.

Very good post.

And yet when I was looking for a Yorkie...I drove down to the only breeder in my province that I could find. I was very dissapointed because there was just too many there and I couldn't see how someone could love and care properly for them all. Turned me off and made me think this particular breeder was only in it for the cash. So, I looked elsewhere. Ended up MORE happy with the lady who breed her pet that she loves dearly and the pups were well taken care of and so was mom.

Saying the "backyard breeder" doesn't care about better breeding is, in my opinion, a very unfair thing to say. I love my one yorkie just as much as a breeder loves her 10 yorkies and care greatly about who she would be bred with and the health of each one of them.

This is the thing. I have read numerous threads here where a newbie (in terms of breeding) posts a thread with a question and they were jumped on. Yet, that is no different then when any breeder first started out. Why is that? Cause someone asks the question the breeders assume that is it an irresponsible person for wanting to breed? Yet that is exactly how you all started...with asking questions. Makes no sense to me. Why not lay down the risks and costs and offer help when needed instead of jumping on them?

Also, why is the breeders views on people who want their pet to have a litter or two as producing unwanted pets...when the breeder produces far more than just one or two litters?

Again, I'm not huffy...just asking. Oh lord...I really can't stress that I am just debating this and am not at my computer mad, lol.

I didn't realize I was opening up wounds. I stated from the get-go that I was posting for learning and debate only. The search feature would bring me to the newbies who asked a question about breeding their dog and the ugliness to follow. I am debating this as not a breeder or a backyard breeder. If a moderator feels this is a duplicate of a different thread then they can delete this and point me in the right direction. I just didn't want to post in a thread started by someone who wanted advice on breeding and got shot down is all. I just wanted to take all sides and hopefully everyone learns a bit from everyone. That can happen if we are all adults and listen, no?

So the breeders don't care whether their dogs want it or not? Do they love their females less? Cause they put them at risk everytime the heat comes and they breed. no?

Ok, I will hen peck this with my left hand.LOL I dint feel that the exhibitor breeders are making a big dent towards the over-pet populatn. Most only have 1 or 2 litters per year and are breeding for themselves for the show ring. Yorkies only have very small litters so if both pups turn out, then they will not be sold s pets, but will bwe shown. Most exhibitor breeders have a waiting list of people who want puppies or retired champions/breeders. Any puppy that is sold as a pet will go on limited,spay/neuter contracts as the puppy is just that, a pet. so it isnt populating the pet world as these puppies are already spoken for and cant be bred by byb'rs or mills or irresponsible breeders just interested in making a buck.

Oh, I have no clue if I will ever breed my girl. We may at some point if we feel we are capable and know enough. We'd sure like to have a litter though. We shall see.:)