In New England you get 3 pups at $1500, that's $4500. If nothing goes wrong your expenses will be : X-ray, exam and post whelping oxytocin for dam, $300, tail docking is $150, 2 sets of vaccinations $350, food and supplies $500. That leaves you a whopping $3200 for the 6 hours spent sitting on the floor assisting with the whelping, two hours a day for 90 or so days feeding and cleaning up after the puppies, 30 loads of laundry, travel expenses to the vet, advertising your puppies for sale, answering phone calls at all hours of the day and night from people inquiring about your puppies--and believe me they do call at 11:00 at night--then the inconvenience of having total strangers come to your house with all their friends and relatives to look at your puppies, then try to bargain on the price. If you think that's good money...

So why, other than money, do you continue to do it? If you are having infections of your girl and throwing up and such....is that "fun" for you yorkie? That does sound just as irresponsible as what the bb are being accused of, no? Really, make me understand that. She is infected, vomitting, surgery......that is alot for the dog. It must be money then, no?

Again I feel I have to say that I am not mad or trying to be mean...just playing the other side to gather thoughts and knowledge.

breeding
 

I honestly will not tell people not to breed if they have an excellent bitch, from a top of the line pedigree. There are 7 dogs represented in the first 3 generations of a pedigree...the dog is one, parents two and grandparents three. These are the dogs who must IMO be champions..not 4 or 5 gens back.
...I know not all champions are quality...but when I started out none in 3 gens rarely ever gave me anything of quality...or standard bred...it certainly gave me no breed quality studs..

I do not believe a breeder must show..but I do believe they must do everything else a show breeder does, buy the same quality breeding dogs, use excellent studs (no pet quality studs)).....attend shows, become friends with show breeders to be mentored, learn pedigrees, learn and improve yearly.

I thought I was doing great at first, then I started going to shows, meeting breeders, learning quality..POW..guess what, it hit me like a ton of bicks..I was not producing the best I could..so I started over...reproducing average pets is not my goal, never has been..I have not found a way to do it without being close to the ring..heck, people did not say more then "Hi and bye" to me for awhile, who cared..I was there to watch the Yorkies move, learn structure, coats, color, everything...perhaps, some can learn these things from the Internet or books...not me..I need to see and have a hands on, you can not feel proper coat texture from a photo..movement and structure is lost in a book....breeders take notice of the serious fancier and it does take too long to be accepted and helped...
Sorry, I went on too long...I could say so much more...

PS..one last thing..it makes me want to scream at the top of my lungs when a breeder says..."I do not breed show dogs, just pets, so these things are not important"...GRRRRRRRRRRRR...breeding to the standard as closely as possible and to improve is the only ethical reason to breed IMO..we owe it to the breed we love so much...why short change them?

this is a good subject... i have been a breeder a short time...it has been a learning experience.. it literally takes years to work a plan... the plan is not the same for everyone.. but with the correct motives, it is a good thing.. but it is a 20 year committmnet. dogs live a long time these days.. dont let the negatives get you down.. there is good news available also...:aimeeyork:aimeeyork:aimeeyork:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa

No! I do not do this for the money. I do not have litters often and only breed to have a show hopeful of my own breeding - I have only had three litters in 10 years!. We did not expect a c-section. She was tested and checked by a vet before breeding and given the thumbs up to breed by my vet. She was also evaulated as to see if she was close enough to the standard and was also approved by the stud owner to breed to. The stud I used is a champion, Westminster participant, and a two time Grand Sweeps winner! I paid a lot for the stud service too! My girl is championed sired and dam. She has a ton of champions in her pedigree - even 3 out of her 4 grandparents are champions. I paid a lot for her - to show - almost 4,000. I plan to show her after these pups. The infection was due to her c-section that we did not expect to have. The pups going to the vet is normal for this and that - and they will eat poop - it happens and you can't always prevent it. They are fast little boogers. LOL
I do not plan to sell Trey and Knight (the pups resulting from this breeding) for a long time and will keep one for show. I will probably not make up my mind till they are about 6-8 months min. and show them at a Speciality and also have them evaluated. The one I do part with with be neutered before leaving for his forever home to be well spoiled as a pet!

Be careful playing "devil's advocate!" What I do and the decisions I have made have always been made with my yorkies in mind. I love them - they sleep with me and are my babies!! At least if I breed - I am hopefully keeping the standard up there!
T.

I do realize that by posting in the "side" I am posting it looks like I am doggin' on breeders. I totally have nothing against a good breeder OR a responsible pet owner breeding.

I am being careful..trust me,lol. And I'm glad you added that bit at the end cause whatever decisions I make will also have my yorkie in mind..I love her as well.

I'm not a breeder, but I am a yorkie owner. I have considered breeding, but as I started doing my research, I began to find that there is so much more involved than I realized. I have decided to leave the breeding to the experts, but I am still very interested in it. In my opinion, breeding should never be done for monetary gain. In reality, you don't make any money breeding when you consider all the cost and time that goes into it. I think breeding should only be done in a way to constantly strive to improve the breed. Only the very best dogs which have had the proper health screening should be bred. When I considered breeding, I wanted to breed only show quality dogs but didn't want to show, and I realized that showing is actually an important part of the breeding process. How else can you prove your lines?

I have seen a lot of people say they want to breed their dog so that the dog has the "experience" of being a mom. I think that's a ridiculous reason. I also don't like to see people breeding yorkies that are not within the standard. If breeding was left to the people who are trying to produce only the very best, just think how the breed would improve.

I think anyone new to breeding should try to get a mentor, someone who is experienced. That's the way I would go because experience is so valuable. I would never want to put a dog in danger by trying to breed myself, without the help of a mentor. I think I would find someone who would be willing to let me sit in on a birth to watch before I ever attempted it myself. I also don't like when people intentionally breed for "tinies" or when they breed a female that is too small. I don't like seeing people advertising "designer" dogs with high price tags.

To me, breeding is a huge responsibility, so I don't think it should ever be taken lightly, especially when breeding the smaller breeds like yorkies. Just being a yorkie owner, without breeding, takes up the majority of my time. I enjoy everything about my boys, and I put a lot of time and effort into them because I want them to be around for a very long time. Breeding is a full time job, IMO. It's more than just finding two dogs that might make cute puppies. There's so much research, learning and studying lines, etc. There's a lot more involved than people realize. And, there are so many things that can go wrong with these little dogs.

Another good way to learn is to go to shows and start talking to people there. They can give you lots of good advice, and you will see for yourself the quality of the dogs they are producing. :)

The difference is quality and being responsible for the future of the breed. Do you know if your pet is going to produce yorkies that look like yorkies should? Will they have the proper angulation and be able to move the way that a yorkie should? Can you guarantee that there is no LS, LP, Legge Perthes or Collapsed Treachea in your pet's line? I back up my puppies because I have done my homework and will continue to do so. I am striving to produce dogs that will not only be healthy, loving pets but ones that will pass down the desirable traits to the next generation of yorkies. We can either breed willy-nilly and destroy this breed that those who have gone before us worked so hard to create or we can be responsible and insure that Yorkies remain popular because they are gorgeous and yet strong little terriers able to do a days work or cuddle in your lap. I love this breed and will not contribute to it's down fall, how about you?

Since I dont yet own a Yorkie, I'm not going to comment....and also because my opinions are so varied on this topic. :) But I just have to pop in and say that, though it's true in many ways this is repeated information, I find this to be one of the most informative threads! Responses have been to the point and tactful at the same time, which makes it really easy to learn from and understand different points of view. I have gleaned some new ways of looking at things from this thread, and look forward to more. Thanks to everyone!

There ya go! That's what I'm takin' about! Glad you are learning things on either end of it. I'm happy I started the thread now.:)

there are breeders of many different varieties.. the show breeders are convinced that they are the only ones who do it correctly..
hobby breeders appear to be next on the list... they dont show.. but are good breeders.. supposedly... then the uninformed and irresponsible breeders.. produce puppies, and then change their minds.. there are just as many shelter dogs and rescue dogs who are purebred as their are mixes... lots of big dogs at the shelters... small dogs are very popular
and the yorkies are the best....but :)there are no laws to protect these animals from being bred... just like most humans can have children.. but many should not.. bad breeders simply dont care if they hurt these dogs..
so sad....
it is true... all breeders should stop breeding if they are going to preach about getting a shelter dog...
having a plan is very important:animal-pa:animal-pa:animal-pa

Situational Ethics
 

I agree that this is a good debate and worth having, but I don't think it's just about breeding. I think in the larger sense it's about "situational ethics."

The early breeders developed different breeds to perform different tasks. A particular dog's value was determined by his ability to perform the task for which he was designed. In order to make this judgement correctly there was the need for a single standard, one by which all would be judged. For the breed to survive this standard must be respected, and protected. How we go about that is difficult at best.

The argument can be made to do almost anything we wish to do, no matter the long term detrimental effects, if we accept the situational ethics approach.

I believe that if we don't protect the dignity of those who depend on us, we have none of our own.

Thank you all for your input. I was/am a little confused about what makes a good breeder. I am a pet owner and that has always been my only intention, but I, too, want a Yorkie as close to standard as possible. With that in mind, I now appreciate those breeders who have made a great effort to ensure the Yorkie continues within the perimeter of the AKC standard that has been in place for many, many years.

:animal36thats the responsibility part..... training and raising them:animal-pa
let the dog decide:thumbup::thumbup:

YOU NEED TO DO YOUR MATH 3X1500 IS 4500 NOT 7500
AND WHAT I STATED IS A LOW QUOTE AND NO I DO NOT MAKE A PROFIT
IT GOES FOR DOG FOOD AND FUTURE VET CARE OF MY OTHER DOGS IT IS NOT MONEY I CAN JUST THROW AWAY AND WHAT IF I HAVE TO REFUND A PUPS PRICE BECAUSE OF AN UNSEEN PROBLEM

Why Don't You Post A Picture Of This Girl You Are Wanting To Breed

Technically, it is a profit from that particular litter. You make a great point, though, that profit from one litter does not necessarily mean profit in the big picture. Like any "business" (if we are calling it that), to really come out ahead you have to make a profit over the long-term. I can see where a breeder who does their own dew-claw removal, tail docking, etc. and lives in an area where vet care is less expensive (and does not have show expenses) can make a profit over the long-term. Even factoring in necessary health testing it could be done (again assuming less expensive vet care). But in areas where vet care is very expensive, it would be much more difficult to come out ahead financially.

I don't think the OP was asking for a critique of his girl, as stated not even sure if they will breed her. My impression was that the OP wanted to throw out common questions/opinions and hear from all sides. Just my impression, though, I could easily be wrong. It has happened before! :)

You don't impressed me at all with your questions .

What are the lines in your yorkie's pedigree ? What is your goal in breeding ? What will be your accomplishments in 5 years from now ?

PS..one last thing..it makes me want to scream at the top of my lungs when a breeder says..."I do not breed show dogs, just pets, so these things are not important"...GRRRRRRRRRRRR...breeding to the standard as closely as possible and to improve is the only ethical reason to breed IMO..we owe it to the breed we love so much...why short change them?[/QUOTE]

I agree 120 % with you .

My profile pic has my girl and so does my gallery. She's a great pup! BTW, we haven't really decided that we would breed her in the years to come. I posted earlier that I would be posting as such for debate sake.

Yes, even where I live..one vet to another is so different in pricing. That is very true!

You are right...I am just throwing questions out there to hopefully gain insight as well as have both sides maybe "learn" a little about each side. I am hoping it can remain all good, lol. Some really great points have been made already and a few posters stated that it is a great thread. That's all I wanted.

I'm not really here to impress. I hope you are not too dissapointed with that. I am a very new yorkie owner so I am just learning about them in greater detail. This particular thread and it's topic is just another part of learning.

I have no goal in breeding cause I haven't decided if I will or not. Should we choose to breed her....I would not become a "full-time" breeder or anyting of that sort so in 5 years I will have my girl and be just as happy as I am today. If we did breed her we would research, give it one try and see how it goes and such. No real plans here...like I stated earlier.

Silly me.:scratchhe Math has never been my strong point, lol.

Uh, no need for the upper case yelling, ha. I am not here to ruffle feathers.

standard
 

..we get so many new members, so the "long timers" will have to ignore me.....
The breed we all love and adore on this forum is the Yorkie...what makes a Yorkie a Yorkie? A Yorkie is not a Poodle or a Maltese when the breeder uses the standard as their "recipe"...
I was reading another forum and several breeders said.."this is all fine for you, but we breed pets, so adhering to the standard is unimportant for pets...the pet lover is going to be very upset if they pay good money for a Yorkie and the breeder has no clue as to what one is suppose to look or act like...you can only water down milk so many times...soon it is water and is no longer milk.

A breeder who is dedicated and strives to produce the best of the best each time is very valuable to the breed...this is the area where I see a difference in the types of breeders there are, rather then backyard, show, hobby, miller.

I agree, this is a great thread. There's no "attacking", it's very refreshing especially since this is such an important topic.:thumbup: I too am getting a lot out of it:)

I'm happy that this post has remained civil. There is a lot of good information here.

Most of us are not born understanding the pitfalls of careless breeding. I have been a dog person my entire life. As a child my bookshelves were filled with books on dogs, and my dog was always at my side. As an adult, I've made dogs a big part of my daily life.

But, I did not grow up in the world of show dogs (never even went to a dog show until I was in my late 30's), or breeding. So...the first inkling I had that there was a problem with irresponsible breeding was when I did a paper on the humane society in college. Even then, there was little information out there.

It wasn't until the internet came along with sites like YT that I really began to understand the big picture. I learned through reading and talking with others. I did not learn by getting hit over the head with a ton of well meaning bricks.;) No, I never, never thought about breeding. But, I have been guilty of purchasing pups from byb and petstores. All of this information goes hand in hand to getting the general public to understand.

This thread is interesting, informative, civil and gives a lot of good information to others who might be wondering about the ethics of breeding.

What is the ratio of pups in a litter (from responsible breeders)that are sold as pets (not meeting standard or otherwise) vs sold as show dogs meeting standards?

This is fair. Let me ask this is response....if I breed my girl (assuming she is pet level and not perfect in breed) with another yorkie (standard or flawed in a small way)...and advertise and sell them to good families who love them....is there anything wrong with that in the "breeder" world?

:2smileys:

Great to hear! I am learning as well.