The Great Debate..."Breeder" or "Backyard Breeder"

[oopsmyhalofello]

This is a very informative post, I have enjoyed reading. I do have a question that popped in my head while reading however and I am hoping someone can answer it for me please.

Does one have to be a member of the YTCA to show one of their dogs? Are there "clubs" for every breed of dog that is equal to what the YTCA does? I noticed that the code of ethics is on the YTCA website, so does that mean that when someone refer's to a breeder as unethical what they are stating is that that breeder does not adhere to what that club says and/or is not a member?

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by oopsmyhalofello

This is a very informative post, I have enjoyed reading. I do have a question that popped in my head while reading however and I am hoping someone can answer it for me please.

Does one have to be a member of the YTCA to show one of their dogs? Are there "clubs" for every breed of dog that is equal to what the YTCA does? I noticed that the code of ethics is on the YTCA website, so does that mean that when someone refer's to a breeder as unethical what they are stating is that that breeder does not adhere to what that club says and/or is not a member?

You do not have to be a YTCA member to show your dogs.I think that most brreeds have a parent club like YTCA. Example the STCA is the Skye Terrier Club of America. These parent clubs are the groups that set the standard for the specific breed. Unethical can mean different things. A breeder can be unethical in how he/she guarantees a puppy and how it is resolved if there is something wrong. Or, alot of breeders breed unethically by breeding pet quality to pet quality with no consideration to health. Breeders can be unethical by breeding outside the standard for that breed(coat type, unacceptable colors,conformation flaws,etc).
But, each club has its own rules and ,yes, you would be considered unethical if you were a member and did not follow them.

[oopsmyhalofello]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

You do not have to be a YTCA member to show your dogs.I think that most brreeds have a parent club like YTCA. Example the STCA is the Skye Terrier Club of America. These parent clubs are the groups that set the standard for the specific breed. Unethical can mean different things. A breeder can be unethical in how he/she guarantees a puppy and how it is resolved if there is something wrong. Or, alot of breeders breed unethically by breeding pet quality to pet quality with no consideration to health. Breeders can be unethical by breeding outside the standard for that breed(coat type, unacceptable colors,conformation flaws,etc).
But, each club has its own rules and ,yes, you would be considered unethical if you were a member and did not follow them.

Thank you, so for most when using the term unethical it can be beyond the scope of what the YTCA considers it's "code of ethics" and could possibly be personal opinion and/or general opinion on "ethics".. does that sound right?

Now if these parent clubs are what set's the standards for a specific breed then what does the AKC do other then send out paperwork?

[YorkieRose]

Topknot has post an excellent photo of what your girls coat will most likely be as an adult...great!!!
Marc..What you are calling "dry" is actaully what the breeder knows to be "rough" or "coarse"... breaks before growing to proper length...it is a self maintaining coat, which isn't all that bad for a pet owner..LOL

A photo at 12 weeks speaks volumes to an educated eye and I do not understand why that is so puzzling??

[Marc]

I am going to put something out there that is soley for the purpose of showing the "breeders" something. I am not mad....just wanting this to be a learning thread on both sides and figure it should be pointed out.

My dog's coat is not the topic of this thread...but let's use it and the posts that have been made as the example.....

Before I started this thread and in the time that I have been on this site...I spent all of that time in the upper portion where the health and diet, training..etc is. While up there, any question I had was answered kindly and with no judgement. I posted questions even about my pups coat and replies were "some take longer....wait for the puppy hair to be gone....each grows at it's own pace." Some posted pictures in other peoples "coat" threads with the same concerns....and repliers said the same thing and in fact posted pictures of their pups up to even I believe 6 months of age when their pups hair still hadn't grown on the body much and then showed current pictures of long coats....telling the original poster that some just take time and that the puppy still has its puppy coat so hang in there.

THEN...I start this thread on breeding. My pup's coat comes into play (which is fine cause I am here to learn)...but all comments are "this is what she has....she will not have a long coat....her coat will break....and some even providing pictures of what coats their dogs ended up with. Nothing too positive...nothing about waiting for the puppy hair to go...nothing about slow growing hair...none of that what I got and read "upstairs", if you will.

Does that not strike you as odd? Does the drastic difference not instantly make you wonder if the lower you go on this board (top being the training and such..bottom being the breeders section) that attitudes change when it comes to "new owners" posting?

Non the less....this thread is not about my dog. Her coat will be what it will be. She is a small Yorkie and her health far outweighs her coat type. Each Yorkie comes into whatever coat that may.

I would really like the breeders to read this post carefully and take it to heart. I am not in any way hot over here....but felt it important to point out. Those who are on the other side of this can also ad should they feel the need.

[Mom2BabyNatalie]

Originally Posted by Marc

Does that not strike you as odd? Does the drastic difference not instantly make you wonder if the lower you go on this board (top being the training and such..bottom being the breeders section) that attitudes change when it comes to "new owners" posting?

I don't find it the least bit "odd".... many of the folks posting "upstairs" as you refer to it, or rather, in other categories - are common Yorkie owners, learning as the rest of us - mostly by experience with our own dogs... the BREEDERS section, is compiled mainly of ... guess what? Yep... BREEDERS... many of whom have had 15, 20.. 30 YEARS or more of experience in the REASONS behind the different coat textures, conditions, growth... they know the genetics - have done the research... and can see the "potential" or lack thereof, of a pup - with nothing more than a quick glimpse..... where most folks just "guesstimate" by comparison of "my sister Betty's Yorkie" or "the dog I saw at the park" or "the three York's I have are...", etc.

Not to mention... lots of the members here are wonderfully encouraging... they offer beautiful compliments and tons of reassurance in every instance.... but when you're talking about breeding... continuing Yorkie lines, good or bad - I feel like it's the OBLIGATION of EXPERIENCED BREEDERS to "tell you like it is"... good, bad or indifferent.... they're not JUDGING you, they're simply allowing you the REALITY of what it means to "breed to standard".... it's what they strive for....

Why would you want anything less from those you claim to want to learn from?

That's not to say that ALL of the breeders here know EVERYTHING about ANY Yorkie related "condition"... but they certainly make it their business to make themselves as aware as they are able.... and are here to share their knowledge and experience with the rest of us....

Look at it from their experience levels for a moment... and take what they have to offer with how important the subject is to you... then, follow up with your own research - the direction of a good veterinarian, and make the well informed decision that best suits your needs and that of your girl....

Personally, I think your baby is adorable.... but ALL York babies are.... I don't "have what it takes" to offer you an evaluation, but I would certainly take the opinions of those here for what they are - and follow their lead with regard to different recommendations (whether they be regarding coat - or any other topic you care to initiate).....

As far as I'm concerned... the only opinions higher in "level of respect" than those of a well seasoned, ethical show breeder, would be those of your highly skilled veterinarian....

[Susan123]

In this forum, there are so many that are experienced with touching and watching multiple dogs grow. Much more so that one with just pets. We are breeders after all. I'm sure you would want everyone to be honest, going into detail. I guess everyone could tell you, "oh just give it time" and some fluff if that's what you're ears are itching to hear. You'd be better off in another section rather than posting a debate in the Breeder Section if that's the case.

Everyone here knows that the puppys blow their coat and go through changes, that's obvious. Our experience tells us that we can tell alot about coats even when they are puppies.

[KYBLUE]

my self personally would never breed unreg dog's period
i have seen alot of stuff lately that just has turned my stomach as to what some byb are doing to this breed in my area one in indiana and one in ky
and these are so called breeders that i actually went to see and afterwords i could not get to a store fast enough for a can of lysol to spray myself and my jeep and these were reg

one i went to had there dog's in a mud pen and they were so matted
and dirty it made me want to cry so i don't know anymore
what is in the box or out i just know the abundance of ckc apri aca are on the rise and i really am terribly scared for this bred and what will come out of all of this in 5 year's from now

and i have petted a few out that were not to the standard
and i myself would never have used for breeding as far as this debate
i feel you will do as you wish it really does not matter how any of us feel

all we can do is try and perserve the best for when the yorkie fall's and the popularity of this breed goes down what will we have left a sick and broken
breed just go threw the sick forum . i am not saying all show people should be the only breeder's out there but we should all care enough to do the right thing.

how many wrongs will have to be righted so the breed may flourish again

just my opinion!

[KYBLUE]

Originally Posted by Mom2BabyNatalie

I don't find it the least bit "odd".... many of the folks posting "upstairs" as you refer to it, or rather, in other categories - are common Yorkie owners, learning as the rest of us - mostly by experience with our own dogs... the BREEDERS section, is compiled mainly of ... guess what? Yep... BREEDERS... many of whom have had 15, 20.. 30 YEARS or more of experience in the REASONS behind the different coat textures, conditions, growth... they know the genetics - have done the research... and can see the "potential" or lack thereof, of a pup - with nothing more than a quick glimpse..... where most folks just "guesstimate" by comparison of "my sister Betty's Yorkie" or "the dog I saw at the park" or "the three York's I have are...", etc.

Not to mention... lots of the members here are wonderfully encouraging... they offer beautiful compliments and tons of reassurance in every instance.... but when you're talking about breeding... continuing Yorkie lines, good or bad - I feel like it's the OBLIGATION of EXPERIENCED BREEDERS to "tell you like it is"... good, bad or indifferent.... they're not JUDGING you, they're simply allowing you the REALITY of what it means to "breed to standard".... it's what they strive for....

Why would you want anything less from those you claim to want to learn from?

That's not to say that ALL of the breeders here know EVERYTHING about ANY Yorkie related "condition"... but they certainly make it their business to make themselves as aware as they are able.... and are here to share their knowledge and experience with the rest of us....

Look at it from their experience levels for a moment... and take what they have to offer with how important the subject is to you... then, follow up with your own research - the direction of a good veterinarian, and make the well informed decision that best suits your needs and that of your girl....

Personally, I think your baby is adorable.... but ALL York babies are.... I don't "have what it takes" to offer you an evaluation, but I would certainly take the opinions of those here for what they are - and follow their lead with regard to different recommendations (whether they be regarding coat - or any other topic you care to initiate).....

As far as I'm concerned... the only opinions higher in "level of respect" than those of a well seasoned, ethical show breeder, would be those of your highly skilled veterinarian....

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Mom2BabyNatalie

I don't find it the least bit "odd".... many of the folks posting "upstairs" as you refer to it, or rather, in other categories - are common Yorkie owners, learning as the rest of us - mostly by experience with our own dogs... the BREEDERS section, is compiled mainly of ... guess what? Yep... BREEDERS... many of whom have had 15, 20.. 30 YEARS or more of experience in the REASONS behind the different coat textures, conditions, growth... they know the genetics - have done the research... and can see the "potential" or lack thereof, of a pup - with nothing more than a quick glimpse..... where most folks just "guesstimate" by comparison of "my sister Betty's Yorkie" or "the dog I saw at the park" or "the three York's I have are...", etc.

Not to mention... lots of the members here are wonderfully encouraging... they offer beautiful compliments and tons of reassurance in every instance.... but when you're talking about breeding... continuing Yorkie lines, good or bad - I feel like it's the OBLIGATION of EXPERIENCED BREEDERS to "tell you like it is"... good, bad or indifferent.... they're not JUDGING you, they're simply allowing you the REALITY of what it means to "breed to standard".... it's what they strive for....

Why would you want anything less from those you claim to want to learn from?

That's not to say that ALL of the breeders here know EVERYTHING about ANY Yorkie related "condition"... but they certainly make it their business to make themselves as aware as they are able.... and are here to share their knowledge and experience with the rest of us....

Look at it from their experience levels for a moment... and take what they have to offer with how important the subject is to you... then, follow up with your own research - the direction of a good veterinarian, and make the well informed decision that best suits your needs and that of your girl....

Personally, I think your baby is adorable.... but ALL York babies are.... I don't "have what it takes" to offer you an evaluation, but I would certainly take the opinions of those here for what they are - and follow their lead with regard to different recommendations (whether they be regarding coat - or any other topic you care to initiate).....

As far as I'm concerned... the only opinions higher in "level of respect" than those of a well seasoned, ethical show breeder, would be those of your highly skilled veterinarian....

You took the words right out of my mouth. Although I will say...I respect a vet's MEDICAL opinion, I don't think they are knowledgable about every breed standard. Those questions I'd reserve for a show person or breeder.

[Mom2BabyNatalie]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

You took the words right out of my mouth. Although I will say...I respect a vet's MEDICAL opinion, I don't think they are knowledgable about every breed standard. Those questions I'd reserve for a show person or breeder.

Agreed.... I should have worded that a bit differently.

[T Doll]

I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but the more I read it, the more I feel I should throw in my 2 cents. It appears that you're always claiming to want to learn "both" sides and that this thread is strictly for learning purposes. However, as I read your posts, it just seems like no matter how many knowledgeable breeders and owners give you their opinions and important facts to consider, you seem to question everything they say and try to defend your own position. Although I commend you for wanting to do your research and not just going ahead and breeding your girl without trying to get some important information, it also doesn't seem like you're taking in all this useful information that everyone has offered. You just counter back at them and try to justify breeding your girl....that's the thing that really bugs me

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by T Doll

I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but the more I read it, the more I feel I should throw in my 2 cents. It appears that you're always claiming to want to learn "both" sides and that this thread is strictly for learning purposes. However, as I read your posts, it just seems like no matter how many knowledgeable breeders and owners give you their opinions and important facts to consider, you seem to question everything they say and try to defend your own position. Although I commend you for wanting to do your research and not just going ahead and breeding your girl without trying to get some important information, it also doesn't seem like you're taking in all this useful information that everyone has offered. You just counter back at them and try to justify breeding your girl....that's the thing that really bugs me

You are right and jmho, I think the thread was started to stir trouble. if he had truly wanted advice he could have done a search. It is all there in the search engines on here. he can learn all he needs to now about BYB, reg. Breeders and yes, even coats. Some of the most knowledagle breeders and show people have offered advice on this thread only to have it thrown back in their face. This OP is going to do what he is going to do and the rest of us should just stop posting to it.

[YorkieRose]

I totally, misunderstood your thread..I thought you were asking about breeding, sorry.

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by Marc

I am going to put something out there that is soley for the purpose of showing the "breeders" something. I am not mad....just wanting this to be a learning thread on both sides and figure it should be pointed out.

My dog's coat is not the topic of this thread...but let's use it and the posts that have been made as the example.....

Before I started this thread and in the time that I have been on this site...I spent all of that time in the upper portion where the health and diet, training..etc is. While up there, any question I had was answered kindly and with no judgement. I posted questions even about my pups coat and replies were "some take longer....wait for the puppy hair to be gone....each grows at it's own pace." Some posted pictures in other peoples "coat" threads with the same concerns....and repliers said the same thing and in fact posted pictures of their pups up to even I believe 6 months of age when their pups hair still hadn't grown on the body much and then showed current pictures of long coats....telling the original poster that some just take time and that the puppy still has its puppy coat so hang in there.

THEN...I start this thread on breeding. My pup's coat comes into play (which is fine cause I am here to learn)...but all comments are "this is what she has....she will not have a long coat....her coat will break....and some even providing pictures of what coats their dogs ended up with. Nothing too positive...nothing about waiting for the puppy hair to go...nothing about slow growing hair...none of that what I got and read "upstairs", if you will.

Does that not strike you as odd? Does the drastic difference not instantly make you wonder if the lower you go on this board (top being the training and such..bottom being the breeders section) that attitudes change when it comes to "new owners" posting?
Non the less....this thread is not about my dog. Her coat will be what it will be. She is a small Yorkie and her health far outweighs her coat type. Each Yorkie comes into whatever coat that may.

I would really like the breeders to read this post carefully and take it to heart. I am not in any way hot over here....but felt it important to point out. Those who are on the other side of this can also ad should they feel the need.

I too have avoided this thread, but.....in all do respect to every member here!

The breeders section is just that, all about "breeding this daunting breed"
A dedicated breeder understands and adheres to the breed standard, one who knows that pedigrees are more than a pretty piece of paper and that responsible breeding is far more complicated, costly, consuming than breeding two beloved house pets for litter of pretty puppies. With this in mind the breeders section is the most passionate controversal area in YT, simply put don't ask questions in this section if youre not seeking honest opinions.

There are many seasoned breeders that give their time helping others understand the breed standard, the responsiblities and costs involved in breeding, finally assisting those who know nothing about breeding yet they have a pregant bitch due to whelp!

If youre not seeking an honest answer then this area is not the area to post to, if you want to be petted or patted on the head there are plenty of sections on YT celebrating their passion for their pets.

Finally when someone is asking if they should breed their dog or not, they get what they ask for...answers and opinions...then like any mature adult one should ponder the advice and ultimately make their now informed decision.