LOL yes it was a joke. Currently we are a very small group of very busy people that have not even gotten our first litters yet, so as of right now we are each working on getting our own lines started. We do want to get stadards set for them so we are all working towards the same goal.

Many people are still afraid to come forward with their partis. Especially show breeders because it couild get them banned by the YTCA. So they are forced to make some tough choices.

The breeder that I got my partis from used to be a show breeder, but she decided not to let them dictate to her on what she could and couldn't breed.

I personally do not want to show, I just want a standard to strive for, even if I have to set my own.

I thought so, but you never know...especially the way things have gone around here today.b:eek:

Is the group you are working w/ united in their efforts? So you guys have set a common standard to work towards at least among yourselves...or are you just working towards your own individual ideas in regards to standards right now? What do you (and your group) feel like the standards should be?


Are you all trying to get parties recognized as a breed itself, or a variation of color that qualifies to be shown. If it is it's own breed, wouldn't that cut all ties w/ the YTCA? Do you forsee AKC as requiring extensive genetic testing on original parti breeding stock to prove that they were from standard colored Yorkies? (To disprove the theory that there was Maltese or other breed blood intigrated?)

Sorry for bombarding you with questions, but honestly, I really appreciate your input on the subject. Like you said, many are afraid to come forward right now and it's not common that you find someone who HAS actually researched them and is actively working towards making them 'official,' for lack of better term and trying to get their program organized. (And it's even more unusual to be able to keep a thread civil long enough to be able to discuss it in a civil manner.:( ) Thanks for taking the time to share.:) :thumbup:

Usually I try to stay out of all of this stuff, but I can't.

Why is it so bad to have a "parti" or an "off" color. Seriously, that's like saying that a child with blond hair has "off" color hair because both their parents had brown? It's genetics. Get over it. So what if the YTCA says that yorkies have to be blue and tan? What's wrong with the "off" colors. They are just as beautiful, just as loving and just as much of a yorkie as the standard ones.

I don't think parti's or off colors should be shown as yorkies because there is a set "standard". I do however think that creating an off breed with different color variations other than the blue and tan would be ideal.

I hope my next yorkie pup is a parti or off colored teapot. What is everyone going to say next? I'm an irresponsible owner because I love my dogs no matter what they look like?

I can answer or at least what I think...it would have to be it's own breed to be able to show because YTCA will not recognize a parti colored yorkie for the show ring. I don't think there would be the 2/3'ed's vote for that to happen. So to be recognized in the show ring it would have to go through AKC to be it's own breed and I know it takes ALOT and a long process to get a breed recognized. If I'm wrong please those with more knowledge let me know.

Donna Bird

Donna,


I believe that the new AKC recognized breeds began by a large body of people banding together....breeding and documenting historical data.....in addition a dog to become AKC accepted it must have a functional purpose. In other words...working breeds, herding, etc....even though there is a toy class is now recognized as a companion dogs originally each of the breeds within it served a function

I understand your point and agree with you (I think :p ). I think that the problem you have is when you have people who breed the off colors just because they are "different" so that they will have something "rare." With no long term goals for the variance or efforts to do anything other than have a few 'odd' litters that they can sell quickly. And sadly, that happens alot.:( What I think gets to people sometimes is when the excuse "I'm working to get it recognized" is used as an excuse to try to prevent the breeder from being criticized. Sadly, that happens alot too.
For the people who ARE making a valiant, continuous effort and taking the time to understand the history of the parti (or any off color), trying to work with others to get a set standard, working towards the right to participate in shows either as a separate breed or color variation--those people who ARE trying are being dealt a great injustice by those who are just hiding behind their work and using the long term goals of others to hide behind while they try to produce something 'different' for a quick buck.:(
Just others trying to capitalize out of breeding dogs with little regard to the dogs themselves. That is why I applaud for people like Jeanie who are working hard for the partis and am so interested in knowing what steps they are taking as a coordinated effort to set themselves apart.:)

Thanks Mary :) I knew someone would have the answer :) And I know the YTCA will not recognize a parti in the yorkie show ring so to answer Bama's question it would have to be seperate from the yorkie am I correct?

I agree :)

I do know that canine geneticists were involved too, so it isn't an easy process and it will take time....but, it can happen if the right people get together and do it correctly via the AKC guidelines.

That's what I'm thinking, which brings up 2 points:
1) If the goal for partis (or any color variation) is going to be for it to be a separate breed, why would you give a rat's butt about what the YTCA thought? Being a separate breed, they would have nothing to do w/ one another, right?
2) How can something be declared a separate breed if it IS just a color variation of 2 purebred Yorkies?

Hmmm....one brings you back full circle to the other.:(

Wow, while I did get more than I bargained for when I asked the question, I certainly feel much more well informed than I ever have before...I don't mind a debate, as long as it doesn't turn into name-calling and immature comments. I find this all to be quite interesting...:p

It is Late.. LOL
Good night and Happy :D New Year to All :)

Especially if they are educational.

Ha ha ha...and that so rarely happens. :P

That rarely happens either.:(

The questions you posted were valid...it would be very educational if they were answered....especially for those in the future that may want to establish a new breed

See this can be civilized and educational if we all stay adults about it :) This does prove that we don't have to step to a child's level for a nice discussion :)
Happy New Year Everyone!

Donna

Happy New Years to you too I have an hour and forty-five minutes to go

Yeah I know LOL! Well I stayed up till midnight to ring in the new year so I'm heading to bed! Long day tomorrow because I want to do absolutely NOTHING on Wednesday since I have to go back to work on Thursday!
Good night all and good civil thread!! I'm impressed!
Happy New Year Everyone!

Donna Bird and the Brooklynn Yorkies!

Oh no I definitely don't believe in the breeders that do it just for something different. I think if you are going to breed something "off" then you need to work to get it recognized. I certainly don't believe in the breeders that charge even more of an arm and a leg because they are "rare". That really angers me. I think if you are doing it, to help create another breed for the human population to adore just as we do our yorkies and you are looking into everything such as health, genetics, etc, then there is nothing wrong at all.

HAHAHA I agree! I hate when every one gets so heated about silly stuff. I think sometimes everyone just has to step back and realize it's a matter of opinion.

Agreed. That is what I am asking questions to find out. Those who are going about it the right way...how specifically are they doing these things to set themselves apart? What steps are being taken? In short, what makes you different from the scum trying to make a quick buck?
Cause I gotta tell you, I can only imagine the work that has to be put into that and I applaud them!

I find this thread very interesting. And I am glad is has been pleasant so far.

I think the parti breed has great potential if one tries. I would like to see them become a separate breed.
So I guess the first steps they need to take are documenting breedings and genetics and forming a club and standard for the parti yorkie, correct?
It is a lot of hard work but I can see it happening. All breeds of dogs had to go through the same process at one point.

I don't think parti breeders should be assumed to be unreputable. It takes time to get a breed recognized. Just imagine what people thought of our standard yorkies before they became a recognized and established breed.

So I say if they are working for a standard and to get them recognized as their own breed, then we should applaud them, not put them down.
I think most people in this thread agree with this but I have seen several others who never give parti's a second chance and put them down all the time. JMO

I don't think AKC will recognize a new breed that is just a variety of an established breed or even one started by 2 breeds.

I think parti breeders may have to form their own parent club (like YTCA is) and hold their own speciality shows. Then maybe UKC or IABCA will recognize them. But then they may have to join the Biewers their since they should be genetically the same breed....

Good Morning and Happy New Year!

I think with Parti breeders like myself, Jeanie and Tammy, our first steps towards achieving our goals for the parti's is by educating people about the genes behind the color. We are trying to get people to understand how recessive genes work. Once there is a better understanding about the color, there will be more acceptance towards the color.

We do our research and we try to present facts. We study pedigrees and look for common links as to where some of the parti lines are cropping out of. We talk to other parti breeders and get their feedback and opinions. For us, we are just as passionate about this color, and striving to learn, and to educate and to improve the quality of our dogs, as the Yorkie Purists feel about their beautiful blue and tan dogs.

The Yorkshire terrier breed didn't begin over night, it took time and with the parti color only being eligible for registration for the last 5+/- years and many of the parti breeders still having young stock, it will take time for us to figure out the right way to gain acceptance in the ring.

Personally, I would like to see all the off colors that are currently being disqualified from the ring; black coats, the lighter blue coats, parti, golden and chocolates, to band together to form a "Rainbow" unit. I'd like to see all the off colors to be able to show in a color variation class as a Yorkshire terrier but time will tell what route we wind up taking. That's just my opinion ... and I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time ;-)

problem
 

Here is the problem....no standard show breeder wants their lines used to produce the parti's, chocolates, reds etc...it is totally understandable. You spend 20, 30, 40 yrs breeding your lines, only to see them in these new pedigrees. If a person is serious and wants to develop a good line... they will want to improve...so how do you improve if you do not use champion standard lines? Where do better and better non-standard colors come from if not from established lines? You might say they come from better and better non-standard colors..but a Parti breeder recently total me the gene pool as so small they needed to breed into standard lines to maintain health etc...I suggested using South American Yorkies as many of those breeders are okay with it...

I respect the German Biewer breeders..they are not looking to be accepted as an AKC Yorkie, most are quite happy with their lovely Biewers and own clubs..at least I think that is the thinking..at this point it is all a mess....

[QUOTE=scrapindee;1638883

Biewers have strict standards of where the white, black, and gold should be. I do not at this time believe the parti's have a standard.
[/QUOTE]

The German Biewers and the American partis may have different spotting genes or combination of genes or gene modifiers working to produce their parti coloring. Biewers may have an irish spotting gene and piebald gene, where the whiter colored parti's may have two piebald genes or a piebald and extreme white gene?

While the Biewers have strict color standards and are normally able to produce pups with dark saddles and full masks, our parti's seem to have more white and a less predictable pigment placement. So until the parti breeders learn how to manipulate the markings on the parti's I don't think we can have color standards that are as strict as the Biewers.

The original Nikko's like of parti's trace 5, 6, 7 generations back to Champion Nikkos Rolls Royce Ashley. He was a parti carrier (which of his parents were carriers is unknown at this point). But his parti carrier sons and daughters when bred together, produced parti colored pups. This line was extensively DNA tested prior to AKC allowing the parti color to be registered.

If new parti lines are popping up, I think that those lines should also be DNA'd as well.

As for the new DNA test that will determine the "purity" of a breed, than wouldn't all or at least a large percentage of the Yorkshire terrier breed, need to be tested to determine a base line of how pure the yorkshire terrier breed overall is? It would be interesting if the Nikkos line turned out to be purer than some of today's traditional "thought to be pure" lines of yorkies are?

I guess (as pointed out and discussed in other threads) that's one reason why ALL reputable show breeders will spay/neuter their dogs before they go to another home - so that no one will mess with their bloodlines?

The Nikkos parti line is very closely bred, so yes, we need to outcross with traditional colored yorkies to produce parti carriers but there are new parti lines that are cropping out of different traditional lines too that are now being used to breed back to the Nikkos line.

+++++++++++++++++

I've tried to answer the questions that I feel I can honestly answer but I've asked one question in this thread and in previous threads that have completely been avoided ....

My question is: Why are we only hearing people complain about the off colors of parti, red, chocolate and golden and no one has answered why there are not the same negative feelings about black/gold, black/tan and blue/gold off colors, since they are now just as "off colored" as the others are?

Could someone please honestly respond to my question?

Let me know what you think about this study......


"Genetically the Yorkshire Terrier does NOT carry the piebald gene, which is what is needed for the large amounts of white coloring on any breed. The only way that gene could come into existance is for breedings to have occurred somewhere along the line with Maltese or Shih Tzu. My personal theory is that both are great possibilities.

The important issue we want to look at here is the SS which includes a description ot the Spotting gene. The information below is taken from Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" The genetic makeup for the Yorkshire Terrier is:

asasBBCCDDEEGGmmSStt

S Self colour to totally pigmented surface si Irish spotting involving a few definite areas of white sp Piebald spotting sw Extreme-white piebald

Most breeds without white markings are SS but from time to time markings do appear and in general appear on toes, chest or muzzle. These marks can be present at birth and are lost during infancy. The ones that persist are not other s alleles but to minus modifiers at the S allele and will be limited to those minute amounts in those locations.

Irish spotting is also limited to certain areas of the body as the dominant S is, ruling out either gene in the makeup of Parti/Tri-Colors/Biewers. Limited to forehead, chest, belly, feet and tail tip.

Piebald shows much larger amounts of white on the dogs then the Irish spotting gene.

Extreme-white piebald is seen in those breeds which are white in color. As a result of this double carrier of swsw all other colors can be suppressed. (From Malcolm Willis "Genetics of the Dog")

So in essense, to have the white markings that are on the so called Parti-Color/Tri-Color/Biewer dogs, another breed had to have been in the mixture at some point. Since no one wants to admit this and in all honesty, it could be back far enough that no one is living any longer to admit to it, but unlikely that it is not much closer up. After some study of the current Biewer situation, which is somewhat the same situation, I've found they have both the Piebald gene and the Extreme-White Piebald gene. Some of the Biewer's are going almost solid white, which gives and indication of a couple different breeds.

Per Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" When you read the genetic study of the Maltese, they have the Extreme-White Piebald gene.

Even though the genetic studies were not conducted on Shih Tzu, it is quite apparent that they are carrying the Piebald gene. Either or both could figure into the equation. The ones going white are heavy on the Extreme-White Piebald and the ones keeping color on the backs are of the Piebald inheritance. Either way, the mix wherever it happend, by accident or plan, this is NO longer a purebred Yorkshire Terrier.

In over 30 years of being involved in the sport and many Yorkshire Terrier champions, I have not had a Yorkshire Terrier with white. I find it interesting that the only ones coming up are the ones not bred by show exhibitors. A show exhibitor was getting them and had enough sense to realize there was more behind her breeding then just the Yorkshire Terrier and somebody had obviously done a breeding that was not pure Yorkshire Terrier. Otherwise the show exhibitors are not getting these white colored dogs.
Linda Bush a Yorkie show exhibitor of many champions was able to provide invaluable information on the show exhibitor and pedigrees which concludes who the culprit dog was in the past that started the parti/tri/Biewer in the US.

This is a wonderful breed, but breeds are controlled by standards and that is the way it should be. To be protected by breedings that can harm the breed. It has been posted publicly that there are inherent problems in these white colored dogs and a lot are not living past 7 or 8 years of age. This is also not a problem with Yorkshire Terriers. That genetic disorder has been brought into the breed they have created, with whatever other breed/breeds they have in their background. In doing research I have found that numerous breeds with white do have associated health issues.

It also is noted by some on websites of these breeders of parti's that you can NOT get parti's from 2 regular Yorkshire Terriers. Well then how did they get them in the 1st place? Susposedly they got them from 2 Yorkies. Yet this proves a contradiction itself. They acknowledge all parti's go back to a certain English dog. The one show exhibitor in the US that also was getting parti/tri's had breeding from the same kennel in England.

At this point I think the most important issue to look at is the fact that the Yorkshire Terrier only carries the SS gene, not the piebald gene which is needed for the white coloring.

Cher Hildebrand"