ORCA kills trainer

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I'm not going to say I'm in favor of keeping orcas in captivity since I don't know much about them, but for me, the first two words bolded in red make me wonder: "Critics say...." What do the PROPONENTS say? That's not a balanced argument, so how can we judge? I am particularly suspicious about the contention that orcas never kill humans in the wild, because (1) I doubt it's true, and (2) under normal circs, humans don't interact with orcas, so it's not a meaningful comparison. When I feel that the argument is weak, it makes me suspicious of what's being left out. I've also read so much inspiring stuff about dolphin research that it's really hard for me to imagine that people who are so committed to dolphins don't give a hoot about orcas.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice before.

I should have stated, I was actually looking at what Ann had in black. sorry. That's my one for the day.

[QuickSilver]

May I ask what your source is?

To me, that's a classic example of taking something very ordinary and making it sinister. ASPCA dog training classes tell you to bring your dog to class hungry. It's right there on the website. Are we reducing our dogs to "beggars" by training them with food?

I've read a lot of material about this, and one thing Pryor says over and over again is that you simply cannot train a dolphin through negative reinforcement. You cannot use a choke collar on a dolphin. They are much more powerful than humans, and can easily outmaneuver us in the water. And in fact, you canNOT force a dolphin to perform by withholding food, because dolphins get most of their water from their food. They dehydrate and die very quickly if not fed regularly.

As an aside, Pryor describes one dolphin who figured out how to "beach" itself on the pool rim - it would flop over to people and bang its beak on them when it wanted attention. In other words, working the system.

[QuickSilver]

Also: it's firmly established that any kind of animal, including our dogs, gravitate to the reward source. For dolphins, this is the fish bucket. You should be able to easily observe this with your own dog. Thor loves me, but he doesn't know what High Five means - he just knows he gets a Moo Chew out of it.

[QuickSilver]

Okay, one last comment - I've swum with dolphins, and I would never in a million years go into a cage with a tiger. This is an apples and oranges comparison.

[Bianca]

The Orca is a magnificent animal and should be observed, studied in it's natural habitat. It shouldn't be used to perform for us, that is selfish and IMO disgusting
The Orca attacked, because it is saying >basically< I want to go home.
These creatures stay in pods and are very close to one another and live their whole lives this way.
Can you imagine being taken away from your family and thrown in a tank and trained to perform for people that is terrible IMO.
There are social animals , highly intelligent , in ways just like us. So, for anyone to put them into captivity is just wrong, they cannot live in captivity and if they do, they don't live long. They are meant to be free and live their lives with their pods who are family members.
I just think it's wrong and I think you will see a lot more of this happening.

My condolences to the families .

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

May I ask what your source is?

To me, that's a classic example of taking something very ordinary and making it sinister. ASPCA dog training classes tell you to bring your dog to class hungry. It's right there on the website. Are we reducing our dogs to "beggars" by training them with food?

I've read a lot of material about this, and one thing Pryor says over and over again is that you simply cannot train a dolphin through negative reinforcement. You cannot use a choke collar on a dolphin. They are much more powerful than humans, and can easily outmaneuver us in the water. And in fact, you canNOT force a dolphin to perform by withholding food, because dolphins get most of their water from their food. They dehydrate and die very quickly if not fed regularly.

As an aside, Pryor describes one dolphin who figured out how to "beach" itself on the pool rim - it would flop over to people and bang its beak on them when it wanted attention. In other words, working the system.

I put it at the very beginning...Source:WSPA

Here is the link to the entire article...sorry I didn't put that with the excerpt.
http://www.wspa-usa.org/pages/2220_d..._faqs.cfm#tank

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

May I ask what your source is?

To me, that's a classic example of taking something very ordinary and making it sinister. ASPCA dog training classes tell you to bring your dog to class hungry. It's right there on the website. Are we reducing our dogs to "beggars" by training them with food?

I've read a lot of material about this, and one thing Pryor says over and over again is that you simply cannot train a dolphin through negative reinforcement. You cannot use a choke collar on a dolphin. They are much more powerful than humans, and can easily outmaneuver us in the water. And in fact, you canNOT force a dolphin to perform by withholding food, because dolphins get most of their water from their food. They dehydrate and die very quickly if not fed regularly.

As an aside, Pryor describes one dolphin who figured out how to "beach" itself on the pool rim - it would flop over to people and bang its beak on them when it wanted attention. In other words, working the system.

I want you to know I respect your opinion and hope do not think I am being sinister. We disagree...and that is ok. I just don't want to come off like I am arguing with you.

I just can't see why we have to trap them and train them. To take a healthy dolphin from its environment and train it to do tricks for treats is cruel to me. I think we are able to study and create relationships with many animal in thier environment. However, that take much more time. People have spent years waiting to be "accepted" into prides, packs, or families of species they want to study. We have the power to yank them into our world so many times we do.

Rescues are another story. To save the life of an animal that may have otherwise died is a good thing. Sometimes these animals can be returned to the wild, sometimes they cant. These are wonderful examples of animals that should be released into reserves or controled habitats.

[alisonJ]

May I recommend a book to you all by an animal behaviourist called "Animals Make us Human". Excellent book. I think it is on the NYT best seller list now. It is not an animal rights book--rather, it is a book on how to treat animals, even in captivity, to impart a minimum amount of stress. The book provides insight on how these animals live, what gives them pleasure, what stresses them, and overall, what makes them tick.

In my opinion, after reading this book, we should not be exploiting any wild animals for our entertainment. That means dolphins, whales, lions, elephants, etc. Even if it means a shorter lifespan, the quality of life is something you have to consider. (For orcas, captive whales do not live as long, so even more reason to free them).

FYI, dogs are not wild animals...they have evolved to become domesticated, and in fact, they probably would not survive without humans (wolves would, of course). But we Yorkie owners already know that

[Wylie's Mom]

Alison - thanks, I'm going to check out that book - there was just a thread discussing that book, so it's the 2nd time something is showing me I need to read it .

I was very disappointed to see the announcement that Sea World is keeping Tilikum, rather than release him to a sanctuary to live in peace . One can't help but be suspicious of Sea World's true motivations in their decision in keeping him there - I'm sure now that they've reopened, their shows are more populated than ever, especially since they'll be keeping Tilikum.

So sad to see reporters interviewing people on the street who say "yeah but, we need whale shows like this bc most people can't afford to go see whales where they really live and we need to learn about whales" -- oh WOW. Yeah, bc seeing whales do tricks with humans is what they do in their natural habitat (sorry for the sarcasm).

I hope Jane Goodall isn't watching this stuff...

[livingdustmops]

Sadly I believe they are keeping this animal as he has been used for breeding. I think it is something like 17 have been born into captivity because of him.

Thanks Alison for this book, will order...

P.S. I believe all circuses should be shut down. They are cruel.

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Sadly I believe they are keeping this animal as he has been used for breeding. I think it is something like 17 have been born into captivity because of him.

Thanks Alison for this book, will order...

P.S. I believe all circuses should be shut down. They are cruel.

Oh I know, inhumane.

Thanks for the book recommendation, Allison.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Alison - thanks, I'm going to check out that book - there was just a thread discussing that book, so it's the 2nd time something is showing me I need to read it .

I was very disappointed to see the announcement that Sea World is keeping Tilikum, rather than release him to a sanctuary to live in peace . One can't help but be suspicious of Sea World's true motivations in their decision in keeping him there - I'm sure now that they've reopened, their shows are more populated than ever, especially since they'll be keeping Tilikum.

So sad to see reporters interviewing people on the street who say "yeah but, we need whale shows like this bc most people can't afford to go see whales where they really live and we need to learn about whales" -- oh WOW. Yeah, bc seeing whales do tricks with humans is what they do in their natural habitat (sorry for the sarcasm).

I hope Jane Goodall isn't watching this stuff...

Ya, get the book Ann.....you will enjoy it!

I used to think shows such as Sea World could serve a purpose by allowing the average person accessibility to live animals that they normally would never have. As magnificent as these and other creatures are though, I do wonder now, if as people we should have to go the extra mile just to see them. If someone truly wants to see a whale, is it not worth that extra effort? I mean, if I want to see a whale, a tiger, an elephant, I would much rather see them as God intended them to be, in their natural habitat, even if it costs me a considerable amount of money and time.

I do get it, that by keeping some species in captivity we have learned invaluable information, which is a good thing. At what point though is it enough and no longer necessary?

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by jencar98

Ya, get the book Ann.....you will enjoy it!

I used to think shows such as Sea World could serve a purpose by allowing the average person accessibility to live animals that they normally would never have. As magnificent as these and other creatures are though, I do wonder now, if as people we should have to go the extra mile just to see them. If someone truly wants to see a whale, is it not worth that extra effort? I mean, if I want to see a whale, a tiger, an elephant, I would much rather see them as God intended them to be, in their natural habitat, even if it costs me a considerable amount of money and time.

I do get it, that by keeping some species in captivity we have learned invaluable information, which is a good thing. At what point though is it enough and no longer necessary?

I lived on Cape Cod once and you could go out on boats to see these wonderful animals...and I agree with you. Also when I went to Africa it was so different seeing these animals in the wild.

I do believe we have saved some species but many of these places put the animals first and they live in much more humane living conditions then Sea World provides these whales.

[capt_noonie]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Sadly I believe they are keeping this animal as he has been used for breeding. I think it is something like 17 have been born into captivity because of him.

Thanks Alison for this book, will order...

P.S. I believe all circuses should be shut down. They are cruel.

You are totally right. Seaworld is a circus. A sideshow of marine animals. I don't believe they are doing it for the research. Go to Monterey Bay aquarium, that is a research and learning facility, tanks built into the actual bay, so they can live in their own natural habitat.

[QuickSilver]

I honestly think that's very unfair to SeaWorld, but I've stated my piece on the contributions that organization has made to animal research.

Training for most animals is done both to benefit us humans as researchers and for the animal. This is one reason I love animal training so much - it's a mutually beneficial activity.

Zoo keepers spend a tremendous amount of time thinking up ways to keep their animals engaged and fulfilled. For instance, there was a lion in the small NYC zoo who appeared to be depressed. His keepers started to hide his meals so he could "stalk" them, and his demeanor improved tremendously.

I believe the book "Animals Make Us Human" lists a scale of animal "freedoms" we are obligated to provide to those we care for, starting the with the freedom from pain and fear, and ending with the freedom to engage in natural behaviors. That might be in "The Omnivore's Dilemma" - I can't remember now.

In any case, many animals live longer lives in captivity than they do in the wild, and you can make a good argument that many animals are better off. It's very easy to anthropormorphisize, or to hold romantic views about the wild, but for a lot of nature, life is nasty, brutal, and short. It may be that some animals thrive in captivity and some cannot.

In the case of this particular orca, I don't think anyone can say why he has killed humans. Who knows? It really could be anything. He may not have even realized that his actions would kill this woman, given his tremendous strength and non-human perspective.

I've seen good arguments as to why this whale should not be released, namely that he has been in captivity since he was two years old. He has lived in captivity for over twenty years. In addition, killer whales generally spend their lives in the same pod as their mothers. Keiko, the whale on which "Free Willy" was based, was never accepted into another pod after his release into the wild. He eventually sought out human contact again in Nova Scotia and died of pneumonia.

Again, this is not to say that he MUST be kept in captivity, but releasing him is not a simple process, nor does it guarantee that he would be "happier". It's quite possible that he would not be accepted to into a wild pod, and he would have no social contact at all. He currently has bonded with his human trainers, and with the other whales he lives with.