How to tell if a Month Old Puppy is a Show Prospect? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Abby08 · 05-16-2009, 05:43 PM

I am looking for a young male Yorky that I can show. I'm not looking for a world champion, but a dog that I can be reasonably be assured that he could stand up to some competition and be able to finish in some color of ribbon.

I have been emailing people who's dogs I admire and respect their eithics and hoping they might have a good show quality prospect that they would not mind selling to a novice. Today I went to the AKC site and emailed breeders who had lots of years of showing behind them and also made sure their breeding animals had the proper medical tests before breeding.

One of them wrote back to say they had puppies that were a month old. One was going to be kept by the breeder for themselves, the other to another breeder and the 3rd I could come take a look at to see if I was interested. The breeder said that this was a repeat breeding with other puppies in the previous litter by the same two dogs being in the ring now.

I thought that dogs had to be at least 6 months old before one knows whether they are show prospects or not? Can a person with many years of showing and breeding practice know whether they have a show prospective animal at that early age? I currently would be afraid to take a chance. Yet I am very tempted. The picture of the dad that they sent was gorgeous. I have noticed that many breeders rarely send pics of the dams ! Why is that? They contribute 50 percent of the DNA !

I am really flattered that they even bothered to email me back, but then after reading my books and other comments by other professional folks in here, I now have doubts. Can I trust to take an over 4 hour trip to go look at a puppy that is barely a month old yet?

And expect to eventually take it to the conformation show ring and finish him as a champion?

phfgkl · 05-16-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abby08

I am looking for a young male Yorky that I can show. I'm not looking for a world champion, but a dog that I can be reasonably be assured that he could stand up to some competition and be able to finish in some color of ribbon.

I have been emailing people who's dogs I admire and respect their eithics and hoping they might have a good show quality prospect that they would not mind selling to a novice. Today I went to the AKC site and emailed breeders who had lots of years of showing behind them and also made sure their breeding animals had the proper medical tests before breeding.

One of them wrote back to say they had puppies that were a month old. One was going to be kept by the breeder for themselves, the other to another breeder and the 3rd I could come take a look at to see if I was interested. The breeder said that this was a repeat breeding with other puppies in the previous litter by the same two dogs being in the ring now.

I thought that dogs had to be at least 6 months old before one knows whether they are show prospects or not? Can a person with many years of showing and breeding practice know whether they have a show prospective animal at that early age? I currently would be afraid to take a chance. Yet I am very tempted. The picture of the dad that they sent was gorgeous. I have noticed that many breeders rarely send pics of the dams ! Why is that? They contribute 50 percent of the DNA !

I am really flattered that they even bothered to email me back, but then after reading my books and other comments by other professional folks in here, I now have doubts. Can I trust to take an over 4 hour trip to go look at a puppy that is barely a month old yet?

And expect to eventually take it to the conformation show ring and finish him as a champion?

I don't show, but, do know people who do, and I do know for a fact, you can't tell if they're show potential at a month old

topknot · 05-16-2009, 07:12 PM

That is right - you cannot tell if a 4 month old pup is a show prospect. Even though it is a repeat breeding that does not guarantee that this litter will turn out the same. You have hopes, but no guarantee. I have seen repeat breedings and sometimes it works and sometimes they do not turn out the same. I hope this person actually has champions they have finished. It sounds like they have picked the one for themself and another for the friend probably based on sex of puppies and weight. We look at the heads at his time, but only just looking and watching. You also must watch personality too. Without a strong outgoing personality it makes it hard to finish. So be sure to keep this in mind too.
You will have a better chance of getting something you are looking for if it is a 5-6 month old pup and still that is just hope. A pup can really fall apart even from 6 months to a year old. All of us breeders for show can only hope and wish until they reach their maturity without any problems.
I feel too that it is the dam that contibutes a lot too. You should be able to see the dam when you get there. They should have photos too of the dam or can takes some and send to you. Tell them you understand if she has been clipped down.
T.

Abby08 · 05-16-2009, 07:42 PM

Thank you phfgkl and Topknot! I do appreciate your answers! Yes, these pups are only a month old and I am not even sure if I should bother to go look at it? Yes, the sire is a champion, she sent a picture of him, but not the mother,she is not a champion. On the AKC website she lists the sire and dam,along with their registration numbers. Her own website though, is kind of brief, being only one page and dosn't really show much of her dogs, but does tell how long she has been showing and breeding.

I would not hold it against anyone for cutting down the coat of a dog they don't show or is a mother dog, nor do they have to have extensive web pages. But I was hoping they were being honest with me. Now I am not so sure. I would rather pay a pet dog price for a pet dog than a high sum for a pet dog. Which is what I did with my first dog.

Thank you both for taking the time to answer me!

Ladymom · 05-16-2009, 09:01 PM

I would not waste your time on breeders from the AKC website. You will most likely end up with a pet quality Yorkie.

If you are serious about finding a show prospect, you need to contact breeders on the YTCA website's Breeder Contact page.

Yorkshire Terrier Club of America

Be warned, though, reputable show breeders will not just turn a show potential over to a novice. Many require a co-ownership. If you are serious about getting into showing, your best bet would be to attend some shows in your area, meet some of the breeders and see if you can find someone to mentor you.

You can find the show schedule for your area here:

InfoDog AKC Dog Show Information - Main Menu

Sugar's Mom · 05-17-2009, 03:41 AM

Anyone that payss thirty dollars can list puppies on AKC. That means nothing and TopKnot is right about even older pups falling apart. I have kept four from my own breeding that I thought would be show quality only to have them fall apart at about six or even seven months old. Also, just another word of caution, just because someone shows doesn't mean they always sell show quality pups. in fact it is usually the opposite. They keep those for themselves and sell those that don't make the cut.

topknot · 05-17-2009, 04:39 AM

Yes, serious show breeders will require co-ownership and will mentor you. We want to make sure you learn right and do right for the breed. You should go to many shows and learn the show breeders and see the yorkies. This is the best way to learn and to get to know many of the breeders as well as the dogs. Just remember that there are handlers there that show for others, so there are also show breeders that are not at the shows too.

She may have used someone else's stud. Did you ask if it was her male or not?

Show breeders will want you to show their show prospects or especially their show quality that they sell - that is what they want. It is disrespectful to buy a show prospect and if it turns out okay and then not show it - not good. You have to make sure you are committed to showing and will follow through or hire a handler to show for you. You do not want to be someone that says they will show, get a very nice dog, and then not show it and only want to breed it. This is one main reason the co-ownership will be attached. It takes trust on both sides - you have to trust the breeder and they must trust you too to do what is right. Show people cannot keep all their hopefuls. I would rather place, and I have, my pups to a nice pet home. It is hard right now to trust someone. Just the times I guess. So sad. This is the reason you want to go to the shows and talk to people, let them get to know you, your intent, and what exactly you are looking for.
Best of luck.
T.

C C Kent · 05-17-2009, 05:22 AM

Lots of good advice so far. I would encourage you to put yourself in the shoes of the breeder that has the "show" puppy. If you really think you have something special you'll be hesitant to place the puppy with a novice unless you are going to supervise the puppy's career to make sure it's not wasted.

Repeat breedings, especially in our breed are more of a continuation of the first breeding in the idea that all of the genetic potential was not evident in the first breeding. As a test it will take ten puppies minimum to get a well rounded view of genetic potential of a given pair. Out of the ten a great match might produce three puppies (generalized greatly) that have proper structure, coat, movement, attitude.... and the list goes on. These three will still need careful training, grooming, and handling to have a shot in the ring.

If the show breeder isn't interested in being very involved in the career of the puppy placed with a novice.....

If it was easy it wouldn't be so much fun, best of luck!

topknot · 05-17-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C C Kent

Lots of good advice so far. I would encourage you to put yourself in the shoes of the breeder that has the "show" puppy. If you really think you have something special you'll be hesitant to place the puppy with a novice unless you are going to supervise the puppy's career to make sure it's not wasted.

Repeat breedings, especially in our breed are more of a continuation of the first breeding in the idea that all of the genetic potential was not evident in the first breeding. As a test it will take ten puppies minimum to get a well rounded view of genetic potential of a given pair. Out of the ten a great match might produce three puppies (generalized greatly) that have proper structure, coat, movement, attitude.... and the list goes on. These three will still need careful training, grooming, and handling to have a shot in the ring.

If the show breeder isn't interested in being very involved in the career of the puppy placed with a novice.....

If it was easy it wouldn't be so much fun, best of luck!

So true!
Grooming and training if not done correctly can ruin a nice dog and then not make champion. So this is another reason why the breeder wants to be your mentor. It is best to go with a great show breeder near you, so they can train you how to groom and train correctly. It takes a lot of time and work on the breeder's side to mentor. And then the novice must also be willing to listen and learn. Research and learning about the breed is on-going and takes a lot of time and energy.
Yes - it can be a lot of fun!!! So true!

T.

Abby08 · 05-17-2009, 07:28 PM

Thank you everyone! Ladymom, Sugar's Mom,Topknot,and C C Kent!
Some of this I have been doing for many years. Going to the shows, reading show owners online information about show dogs only going with co-ownership and only being allowed full AKC breeding rights after acheiving championship. Reading their online published thoughts about proper ethics,only breeding to the standard,spaying and neutering pet puppies. I am in full agreement with the grand majority of what I have read. This year I did not go to the Spring all breed show,(usually occurs around Easter here and it came early this year, just snuck up on me). However I am not very outgoing and going up to talk to people has been hard for me all of my life. I have done it on occasion, but didn't have a clue as to what to ask.

Way back when, I did email the proper folk at the YCTA about contacting someone who might have a show prospect and never heard back. I do go to the website every now and then to read up on what changes are being allowed or not with the breed and other good info that they do have listed on their website.

There is at least one show breeder that I know of in my area, but I think she is now more involved with showing for other folks and training and grooming too. She is a couple of hours away from me.

I am lucky in that there is a professional dog trainer in the area that teaches stacking and show ring practice. I did take my dog for this last year, but when I figured out her coat was not good enough and perhaps her ears may be too big, I kind of gave up at the time.
Yes, I have noticed that many folks are handling for the Show Folks. One or two local show people I have recognized in the chairs around the ring, but they are usually supper focused on the dogs and seem kind of "stoney faced" so I am under the impression that they are not in the mood for conversation at that point in time. Afterwords they disperse quickly. Some have talked to me when I have asked, but my questions were very limited.

I have learned alot more since coming in here and actually owning a Yorky. I did get a copy of the YTCA's handbook on the standard. I did subscribe to the Yorkshire Terrier magazine one year. I have boo coo Yorkshire Terrier books, looking for how to groom and show, but each one only has a tiny bit of info, most dup of the info is duplicatedand not very detailed. I know I have a lot more to learn!

I do go on.....
But really I do appreciate everone's information and input!
Thank you again!

05-16-2009, 05:43 PM	#1
Abby08 Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: ,nc,usa Posts: 193	How to tell if a Month Old Puppy is a Show Prospect? I am looking for a young male Yorky that I can show. I'm not looking for a world champion, but a dog that I can be reasonably be assured that he could stand up to some competition and be able to finish in some color of ribbon. I have been emailing people who's dogs I admire and respect their eithics and hoping they might have a good show quality prospect that they would not mind selling to a novice. Today I went to the AKC site and emailed breeders who had lots of years of showing behind them and also made sure their breeding animals had the proper medical tests before breeding. One of them wrote back to say they had puppies that were a month old. One was going to be kept by the breeder for themselves, the other to another breeder and the 3rd I could come take a look at to see if I was interested. The breeder said that this was a repeat breeding with other puppies in the previous litter by the same two dogs being in the ring now. I thought that dogs had to be at least 6 months old before one knows whether they are show prospects or not? Can a person with many years of showing and breeding practice know whether they have a show prospective animal at that early age? I currently would be afraid to take a chance. Yet I am very tempted. The picture of the dad that they sent was gorgeous. I have noticed that many breeders rarely send pics of the dams ! Why is that? They contribute 50 percent of the DNA ! I am really flattered that they even bothered to email me back, but then after reading my books and other comments by other professional folks in here, I now have doubts. Can I trust to take an over 4 hour trip to go look at a puppy that is barely a month old yet? And expect to eventually take it to the conformation show ring and finish him as a champion?

05-16-2009, 07:12 PM	#3
topknot Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: GA Posts: 3,787	That is right - you cannot tell if a 4 month old pup is a show prospect. Even though it is a repeat breeding that does not guarantee that this litter will turn out the same. You have hopes, but no guarantee. I have seen repeat breedings and sometimes it works and sometimes they do not turn out the same. I hope this person actually has champions they have finished. It sounds like they have picked the one for themself and another for the friend probably based on sex of puppies and weight. We look at the heads at his time, but only just looking and watching. You also must watch personality too. Without a strong outgoing personality it makes it hard to finish. So be sure to keep this in mind too. You will have a better chance of getting something you are looking for if it is a 5-6 month old pup and still that is just hope. A pup can really fall apart even from 6 months to a year old. All of us breeders for show can only hope and wish until they reach their maturity without any problems. I feel too that it is the dam that contibutes a lot too. You should be able to see the dam when you get there. They should have photos too of the dam or can takes some and send to you. Tell them you understand if she has been clipped down. T. Last edited by topknot; 05-16-2009 at 07:15 PM.

05-16-2009, 09:01 PM	#5
Ladymom Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,317	I would not waste your time on breeders from the AKC website. You will most likely end up with a pet quality Yorkie. If you are serious about finding a show prospect, you need to contact breeders on the YTCA website's Breeder Contact page. Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Be warned, though, reputable show breeders will not just turn a show potential over to a novice. Many require a co-ownership. If you are serious about getting into showing, your best bet would be to attend some shows in your area, meet some of the breeders and see if you can find someone to mentor you. You can find the show schedule for your area here: InfoDog AKC Dog Show Information - Main Menu __________________ http://www.myladysdogbows.com/ http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...6213341?ref=nf

05-17-2009, 04:39 AM	#7
topknot Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: GA Posts: 3,787	Yes, serious show breeders will require co-ownership and will mentor you. We want to make sure you learn right and do right for the breed. You should go to many shows and learn the show breeders and see the yorkies. This is the best way to learn and to get to know many of the breeders as well as the dogs. Just remember that there are handlers there that show for others, so there are also show breeders that are not at the shows too. She may have used someone else's stud. Did you ask if it was her male or not? Show breeders will want you to show their show prospects or especially their show quality that they sell - that is what they want. It is disrespectful to buy a show prospect and if it turns out okay and then not show it - not good. You have to make sure you are committed to showing and will follow through or hire a handler to show for you. You do not want to be someone that says they will show, get a very nice dog, and then not show it and only want to breed it. This is one main reason the co-ownership will be attached. It takes trust on both sides - you have to trust the breeder and they must trust you too to do what is right. Show people cannot keep all their hopefuls. I would rather place, and I have, my pups to a nice pet home. It is hard right now to trust someone. Just the times I guess. So sad. This is the reason you want to go to the shows and talk to people, let them get to know you, your intent, and what exactly you are looking for. Best of luck. T. Last edited by topknot; 05-17-2009 at 04:43 AM.

05-17-2009, 05:22 AM	#8
C C Kent YT Addict Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Missouri Ozarks Posts: 452	Lots of good advice so far. I would encourage you to put yourself in the shoes of the breeder that has the "show" puppy. If you really think you have something special you'll be hesitant to place the puppy with a novice unless you are going to supervise the puppy's career to make sure it's not wasted. Repeat breedings, especially in our breed are more of a continuation of the first breeding in the idea that all of the genetic potential was not evident in the first breeding. As a test it will take ten puppies minimum to get a well rounded view of genetic potential of a given pair. Out of the ten a great match might produce three puppies (generalized greatly) that have proper structure, coat, movement, attitude.... and the list goes on. These three will still need careful training, grooming, and handling to have a shot in the ring. If the show breeder isn't interested in being very involved in the career of the puppy placed with a novice..... If it was easy it wouldn't be so much fun, best of luck! __________________ Paris Sophie Bogus Maximus Chezzer Macy Gissimo

05-16-2009, 07:42 PM	#4
Abby08 Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: ,nc,usa Posts: 193	Thank you phfgkl and Topknot! I do appreciate your answers! Yes, these pups are only a month old and I am not even sure if I should bother to go look at it? Yes, the sire is a champion, she sent a picture of him, but not the mother,she is not a champion. On the AKC website she lists the sire and dam,along with their registration numbers. Her own website though, is kind of brief, being only one page and dosn't really show much of her dogs, but does tell how long she has been showing and breeding. I would not hold it against anyone for cutting down the coat of a dog they don't show or is a mother dog, nor do they have to have extensive web pages. But I was hoping they were being honest with me. Now I am not so sure. I would rather pay a pet dog price for a pet dog than a high sum for a pet dog. Which is what I did with my first dog. Thank you both for taking the time to answer me!

05-17-2009, 03:41 AM	#6
Sugar's Mom BANNED! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 9,248	Anyone that payss thirty dollars can list puppies on AKC. That means nothing and TopKnot is right about even older pups falling apart. I have kept four from my own breeding that I thought would be show quality only to have them fall apart at about six or even seven months old. Also, just another word of caution, just because someone shows doesn't mean they always sell show quality pups. in fact it is usually the opposite. They keep those for themselves and sell those that don't make the cut.

05-17-2009, 07:28 PM	#10
Abby08 Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: ,nc,usa Posts: 193	Thank you everyone! Ladymom, Sugar's Mom,Topknot,and C C Kent! Some of this I have been doing for many years. Going to the shows, reading show owners online information about show dogs only going with co-ownership and only being allowed full AKC breeding rights after acheiving championship. Reading their online published thoughts about proper ethics,only breeding to the standard,spaying and neutering pet puppies. I am in full agreement with the grand majority of what I have read. This year I did not go to the Spring all breed show,(usually occurs around Easter here and it came early this year, just snuck up on me). However I am not very outgoing and going up to talk to people has been hard for me all of my life. I have done it on occasion, but didn't have a clue as to what to ask. Way back when, I did email the proper folk at the YCTA about contacting someone who might have a show prospect and never heard back. I do go to the website every now and then to read up on what changes are being allowed or not with the breed and other good info that they do have listed on their website. There is at least one show breeder that I know of in my area, but I think she is now more involved with showing for other folks and training and grooming too. She is a couple of hours away from me. I am lucky in that there is a professional dog trainer in the area that teaches stacking and show ring practice. I did take my dog for this last year, but when I figured out her coat was not good enough and perhaps her ears may be too big, I kind of gave up at the time. Yes, I have noticed that many folks are handling for the Show Folks. One or two local show people I have recognized in the chairs around the ring, but they are usually supper focused on the dogs and seem kind of "stoney faced" so I am under the impression that they are not in the mood for conversation at that point in time. Afterwords they disperse quickly. Some have talked to me when I have asked, but my questions were very limited. I have learned alot more since coming in here and actually owning a Yorky. I did get a copy of the YTCA's handbook on the standard. I did subscribe to the Yorkshire Terrier magazine one year. I have boo coo Yorkshire Terrier books, looking for how to groom and show, but each one only has a tiny bit of info, most dup of the info is duplicatedand not very detailed. I know I have a lot more to learn! I do go on..... But really I do appreciate everone's information and input! Thank you again!