Questions/Experiences with MVD

[NicoleMarie]

Hi Everyone, I was wondering if all you moms with babies with "possible" MVD wouldn't mind sharing your babies story/experiences/symptoms with me...

As I posted a while ago, Cruz started having seizures about 3 months apart in July. He has no other symptoms. He did have some mild elevated Bile Acids. Ultrasound showed no shunt. Internal medicine specialist suspected MVD. I was truly never convinced, because he shows no other symptoms. He seizures are random, and never after he eats. We started him on Hills L/D in Oct. The seizures have still continued (about 2-3 months apart). I am starting to think that he is epileptic and does not have MVD at all. I met with another vet yesterday for a second opinion, and he believes too Cruz is epileptic, judging by when his seizures started (3yrs old), the pattern, and lack of other symptoms.

Here is where I was looking for help... For all of you who have little ones with "possible" MVD (meaning no liver biopsy proved) what kind of of symptoms did they have or still have?

If Cruz is really just an idiopathic epileptic.. I don't want to keep him on the Hills L/D if he doesn't need it. I'd rather him have a more balanced food.

[tokipoki]

We are currently going through the process of figuring out if Toki has liver shunt or MVD. I think that the only way to truly diagnose MVD is by having them get a tissue sample from the liver and analyzing it. I have a thread in the Health & Diet section but basically Toki has not had any symptoms of liver issues...we only noticed an issue during a routine blood test when they found elevated liver enzymes. We then had a BAT performed and the post-fast value was 61 (if I'm remembering correctly). My vet is leaning toward MVD and we will most likely have them do a biopsy on the liver when we have surgery to remove bladder stones.

I would not take the lack of symptoms to mean that there is no possibility of MVD or some other liver issue. If it were me, I would stick with a diet specifically for liver pups (possibly with milk thistle supplement) if you do not plan on doing a liver biopsy. I feel the same way about the prescription food but it is proven to work and completely balanced. I will probably ask for a referral to a nutritionist so that I can homecook in the future. I believe LuvTaycieGirl homecooks for her pup Taycie that has MVD and is having good results...I was actually going to contact her for more info on Dr. Remillard's diet once we have more answers.

I'm hoping for the best with Cruz...keep us updated.

[NicoleMarie]

Thank You. We chose not to do a livery biopsy only because the treatment plan would be the same for MVD. I don't mind the Hills L/D I just wouldn't want to be feeding him that if he does not have any liver issues at all. ya know? Cruz bile acids In dec were 1.9 & 45.4. He recently had a full blood panel down in Feb and all liver enzymes were normal. (Could be the diet?)

I wish there were just some other ways to figure out if he's epileptic or having seizures because of his liver.

The vet we met with yesterday did mention Denamarin. Which I believe does have Milk Thistle in it to start giving him to see if that helps. I guess this could help us figure out if the liver is the problem.

Thank you! Good luck to you too!

[Specs]

We are going through the whole LS/MVD thing with Toby also (thread under sick and injured). The original reason we took him to the vet was because he would start licking his lips a lot, rear leg twitching, chewing backs of paws and then scratching his chin and face and yelping loudly. This would happen 4-8 times a day and he was visibly unhappy and uncomfortable. What are Cruz's seizure symptoms like?

We always wondered whether Toby was suffering from mini seizures related to his high BATs or was suffering from symptoms related to food allergies. The vet gave him antihistamine and virally all the above symptoms disappeared. Now we have him on a low protein home made liver diet with no other meds but lactulose and he still has the odd lip licking and minor rear leg scratch but for the most part he is completely normal. Allergies are unreal to sort out. We need to feed him his current diet for 8 weeks before we will know.

I sure hope Cruz's seizures stop soon, it sounds as though he has great support! All the best and please keep us posted!

[enzosfamily]

NicoleMarie -sounds just like my Enzo! He was 4.5 when he started having seizures out of nowhere. He would vomit food about once a month since he was a puppy but not enough to warrant too much worry. We first did the bile acid test and he had higher than normal but no shunt after an MRI and his liver enzymes are completely normal. The seizures started coming more frequently - no one thought it had anything to do with his liver but encouraged us to do the biospy. We too chose not to because if it is MVD, there is nothing we would do differently.

I went on a three year journey to try to cure him. At his worst point the seizures were every 7-10 days but besides that he would act completely normal and healthy. I cried every time he had a seizure and went the holistic route because the conventional vets I saw were not interested in looking outside the box - Enzo was not cookie cutter and every one was stumped.

It was a long hard journey but here is what we did:

I finally ended up with a Chinese Medicine vet who said she specialized in hard cases. She diagnosed him according to chinese medicine principles - I had to stay away from chicken, lamb and beef - all of which I was feeding Enzo! I home cooked a diet of white fish, quinoa and frozen chinese vegetables and in a few short weeks, his vomiting completely stopped. I got that recipe from a Vet in Vermont that super analyzed his blood panel for me. Originally I was given the l/d food too by my original vet as well as the denmarin. The l/d is horrible - ugh the ingredients! and Enzo hated it with a passion - I had to practically stand on my head in the those days to get him to eat.

Back to last year with the Chinese Med Vet - she told me about laser therapy and how she believed it would help Enzo. She normally does accupuncture but had just gotten the laser and thought that might be even more effective. She also started adjusting Enzo as she is certified in chiropractic for animals. She said that Enzo's atlas part of his neck was out of whack and that she sees that often in dogs that have seizures. Between the intensive laser therapy and chiropractic treatments, Enzo was seizure free for one full year. The laser is not painful at all - they just feel a warm sensation. After it is done, Enzo is as relaxed as he can be. He just recently had a seizure two weeks ago but I swear it was because I had fed him bison for a week - we decided to try it to see if he could tolerate it - obviously not! I threw out the remainder of the food and went back to turkey and white fish as usual. He has been ok since but I am going back to the vet next week to get another laser treatment to hopefully nip it in the bud. He was just about to be ready to have the laser treatment only once every three months..going to continue just getting one once a month now to make sure he is ok.

I forgot to mention I travel an hr and 45 minutes for his visit - I don't care because our Vet is a true miracle worker. I highly recommend you look into changing your dog's diet, completely stop all vaccines and just titre and look into laser and chiropractic care - it works!!! I never put Enzo on phenobarbitol as his liver is already not fully functioning and I did not want to exacerbate the problem. Enzo is happy and healthy and I am thrilled with his outcome.

The laser that is used is by Erchonia - you can go to their website and find Vets that use it in your area. There is a Vet Chiropractic website that has practitioners that are certified. If you would like more info or need help, please email me at jennlynnw@aol.com. If you would also like to try home cooking, I can give you the recipe as it is easy and the Vet knew Enzo's liver isn't completely up to par. I also have a local holistic vet that I take my other dog too and happened to take Enzo too for a little cold and was telling her about all I have done - she said she hasn't met a Yorkie yet that didn't have some kind of liver dysfunction so that made me feel so much better.

Don't want to exclude anyone else with dogs having seizures so if anyone would like to know more about what we did, feel free to email me too. I have a wealth of information on this topic unfortunately. The moral of my story is : Never give up hope and don't take no for an answer! There are so many alternatives out there - just have to find that one passionate Vet that truly wants to help!

[NicoleMarie]

He's had a total of 4 seizures since July. All except one seizure were typically the way they explain grand mal seizures! Extremely heartbreaking to watch. I've made some good notes on things he does before and how he acts that I know when one is coming right before it happens. Luckily the actual seizing part is under 2mins, even though it seems like a lifetime.

Cruz does have a little bit of a leg tremor sometimes that I've noticed when he is getting ready to sleep. But this doesn't happen a lot.

What kinds of food do you cook for your little one? I would love to be able to give Cruz some baby carrots and other low protien treats but the internal specialist was against it. Which I could understand at the time when we first started him on the hills LD but now I am hoping I can try to start adding them in. I am just really starting to think that Cruz is epileptic and his liver is not the issue. He never has had any vomiting, diarrhea, lack of appetite, stumbling. (just naming off other symptoms I been reading on here that dogs with MVD had)

I hope the diet continues to work for Toby!

[NicoleMarie]

Enzosfamily, WOW thank you so much for all that information! First, I am so sorry it took you 3 years to find a cure that works for Enzo. I think about it everyday and I can't imagine how hard that was you.
My husband and I got Cruz before we got married and have no children yet, so he is our baby! Sometimes I even joke saying he completes our family! I spent many sleepless nights sense July trying to diagnose him myself (LOL) which I know is bad but like you said I can't give up hope, which is part of the reason we saw another vet Monday. My regular vet is great and takes such good care of Cruz but I knew it was time to try find something more or new information. The new vet we saw talked to us for 1hr 45 mins ..just talking! He was amazing! He was the one who told us about the denamarin. He also told us about a Holistic vet he highly reccomends in Vermont! ( I couldn't believe when I read that in your post-I immediately looked to see where you were from--we are right outside of Albany) Anyways, he had mentioned how he sent many of his seizing dogs there whos owners wanted to try a different approach. He told us a story about a dog he sent to this vet who never had another seizure again and then another dog where the holistic approach didn't work. Its funny you said that about your vet saying "that she hasn't met a yorkie that doesn't have some kind of liver dysfunction" because this vet said the SAME THING!! Crazy!!
I already researched the vet he recommended and I am going to do the same with the information you provided however, and the vet agreed that we might not be there just yet. With Cruz only have seizures a couple months apart we can still try some other things.
My biggest fear is that these seizures are going to get closer and closer together. Cruz is just as active, hyper and spunky as the day we brought him home, apart from the seizures we don't look at him as a sick dog and hope that never changes.
I don't know how I feel about the Hills food. Honestly, I never even heard of it until all this happened. All I know is that I am not a fan of giving Cruz a special diet and/or Meds if he doesn't need them (for his liver). Cruz isn't crazy about the Hills food. He eats it, but nothing like how he used to eat his old food. And he LOVED food. He would eat lettuce like it was a steak!!! Its very hard right now because as I mentioned above I was told I couldn't even give him veggies as treats. I swear I don't know who cried more me or cruz the day I had to throw out all his bones & treats! So now on top of worrying about seizures, I am worrying that hes not getting enough nutrients and hes on a diet he doesn't need.

I think we decided to re-test cruz bile acids again, start him on the denamarin and see how he does. With seizures, it always a watching game. Which as you know is SO hard! If anything changes, or Cruz starts having more seizures I am 100% seeking out that Holistic vet. Who knows maybe my gut is wrong, maybe Cruz does have some liver issues. Maybe this denaramin combined with the Hills will be just the right thing for him!

I really wanted to thank you for taking the time to respond and provide me with all that information. Enzo is very lucky! I am SO thankful I found this site back in July. It's my saving grace...

I hope Enzo continues with his great progress! I am so happy for you and him that after 3 years things have been looking up. I will definitely keep you updated and I am sure I will have more questions as we go. Thank you sooo much again! I might sleep a little easier tonight!

[107barney]

The only way to determine if your dog's seizures are due to epilepsy is to rule out all medical causes of the seizures as epilepsy is a diagnosis of exclusion. My dog has epilepsy and has had all the tests.

If your dog had abnormal bile acids, then it is likely that your dog has a liver issue. Dog's without liver problems have normal bile acids (like my epileptic dog, for example).

The dog could have both epilepsy and MVD in which case you need to treat for both. If I were you, I would schedule a consultation with a board certified neurologist for an evaluation of your dog's seizures. Try to get a video if you can with your phone, as seeing the seizures is how they can definitively diagnose the type and severity of the seizures.

As for diet - I have no issues w/ the Hill's L/D diet and it worked very well for my MVD dog for a couple of years until she no longer tolerated the food due to allergies and another medical problem. I home cook for my dogs. I use a board certified veterinary nutritionist -- personally, I would not be interested in an alternative practitioners or holistic veterinarians to formulate a diet for my dog.

Good luck!

[NicoleMarie]

Thank You 107Barney!

I always wondered why they didnt refer us to a neuro specialist too! Maybe that is something I can look into as well.

I have heard a lot about dogs having allergies from the food, he has only been on Hills diet since Oct. What are some signs I should keep an eye out for? He just had a full blood panel done and everything was great, even liver enzymes!

His elevated Bile Acids is the only reason I am not taking him off the food and following my gut right now. His numbers were not extremely high, and were never tested before so we have nothing to compare too. The internal Medicine specialist did say that cruz could have both. One thing he did say but didnt dwell on it long was that since Cruz is a Morkie (Maltese +Yorkie) his bile acids could be irrelevant because some Maltese are known to have elevated Bile acids.

Has home cooking for your dog stopped her seizures?