Also keep in mind that Liver Shunt has to this date not been proven to be genetic. No genetic markers to date have been found and no research has proven that it is genetic. However there is every logical reason to believe that SOME FORMS are genetic.

Other Liver Dysfunctions that could mimic Liver Shunt:
Acute Hepatic Failure - Rapid loss of liver function due to death of liver cells caused by drugs, toxins, infectious diseases and lack of oxygen. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Hepatic Lipidosis - The accumulation of fatty tissue within the liver caused by appetite loss which promotes the accumulation of lipid in the liver. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Hepatitis Chronic Active - Inflammation of the liver causing the accumulation of inflammatory cells and scarring. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Copper Storage Disease - Genetic disease caused by excessive accumulation of copper in the liver. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Infectious Hepatitis: Viral disease that targets the liver, kidneys, eyes and blood stream. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Benign Tumors: Abnormal cell accumulation that affects the livers ability to filter and process properly. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Cancer: Abnormal cell accumulation that affects the livers ability to filter and process properly. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Toxins: Excessive overload of impurities in the blood stream that overloads the livers ability to filter and process properly due to illness or disease. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Parasites: Such as liver flukes or HEARTWORMS which invade the liver causing the livers inability to filter and process properly. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Liver Abscess: Lesions that cause the livers inability to filter and process properly. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Cirrhosis - One form of the end stage of liver disease causing the liver to be unable to filter and process properly. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Trauma - Severe or blunt blow to the liver region causing contusions. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

Pancreatitis - A severe inflammatory process that occurs with digestive enzymes that can spill over into the liver and cause severe disease. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

ADVENOVIRUS - Viral disease of canines. Mimics Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

POISONS: Toxic substances ingested by mouth or absorbed through the skin into the blood stream that can have deadly consequences to your animal such as Oleander, Azalea, Rhododendrons, Poinsettias and Japanese yews to name a few. Causes liver malfunction and can mimic Liver Shunt signs and symptoms.

MEDICINES: There are several chemicals that could be toxic to the liver including medicine given daily to many animals such as Rimadyl (arthritis treatment), Thiacetarsamide (heartworm treatment), Ketaconazole (fungal treatment), Tylenol (acetaminophen), Glucocorticoids (cortisone), Anthelmintics (wormer), Parasiticides, Phenobarbital (epilepsy meds).


What age is Liver Shunt Diagnosed:
Liver Shunt can be diagnosed as early as 8 weeks of age and for years after that. The degree of the shunt determines at which stage the diagnosis is usually made. A minor shunt where only minor amounts of blood are being redirected around the liver may go for years without being diagnosed.

The amount of protein that you feed your animal also has some bearing as to the degree of problems that your animal will exhibit thus delaying the diagnosis further if you are feeding a low-protein feed.

Keep in mind also that other disease or occurrences can cause Liver Shunt which would make it diagnosed only after the disease or occurrence.

Liver Shunt can be caused by other outside sources and other medical ailments.

nice attempt at deflection

I think you need to go to Dr Tobias website and get facts from the leading vet in this field.

This is what upsets me more than anything else! THE REASON TO LIVER SHUNT TEST YOUR BREEDERS ALONG WITH ANY OFF SPRINGS IS TO POSITIVELY MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE BREEDING WITH CLEAN LINES AND YOU ARE NOT PASSING THE LIVER SHUNT GENE ON! My personal opinion is that if someone is breeding to better the breed and to make sure they are getting clean off springs from their breeders is to do the proper test. Also just because your breeders may test negative for liver shunt does NOT mean they cannot pass it on to their off springs. I am quite positive that someone would pay alittle more for their puppy if they know that the acid bile test has been done on their puppy to make sure the puppy is healthy. I have purchased a puppy with liver shunt before and I would NEVER want to put someone else through that heartbreak! Let alone the $2300.00 it cost to fix the external shunt. :mad:

AMEN!!!!!!!! :thumbup:

Here's the link to the site:
http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs...tability.shtml

High puppy mortality (6-14 weeks)" Quote

Maybe you should of read this before you advertised 10 day old puppies for sale? JMO

Updates on Liver Shunt Research Programs:
9/05 Dear Yorkie Supporters:


Here is an update of the happenings at University of Tennessee regarding liver shunts in Yorkies. I realize it's a very long letter, but I hope getting the information directly to you will help clarify our programs.


We have several ongoing programs regarding liver shunts in Yorkies and other breeds:


First and foremost is our Angel Fund. This fund was started with the help of Terri Shumsky. Terri truly was a Yorkie Angel; through her efforts dozens of owners were assisted with medical and surgical care of their shunt puppies or were directed to places where they could receive excellent treatment. The fund was set up for three purposes: to help determine the hereditary nature of liver shunts, to help support surgery costs for owners, and to help support clinical projects to improve detection and survival of dogs with shunts. The fund has been used for all of these purposes, and continues to be supported by compassionate Yorkie and non-Yorkie dog owners and enthusiasts. In fact, YTNR recently made a $2,500 donation to the fund to keep it going, and a recent clinical project has added another $3000. Many owners of Yorkies and other affected breeds have also made contributions.


The hereditary studies were also supported by a 1 year grant from the AKC. With this grant, we performed pedigree and epidemiology studies. We found that incidence of shunts was twice as high in dogs that were inbred, but that there was no single family line that could be identified as a shunt carrier. We also found that Yorkshire terriers had a 36 times greater risk of having congenital shunts than all breeds combined, and the odds of having a shunt was 58 times that of mixed breed dogs. With the funding we also developed our "breeding family". We had several Yorkies with corrected shunts that we hoped could be bred to produce puppies so that we could determine mode of inheritance.


So far, only Tilly ("Maggie Mae") produced puppies - a healthy male and a healthy female (both neutered)- from her breeding with Tuffy. Our second male ("Mouse") was just castrated because he developed a prostate infection and changes in his testicles. Another male had to be castrated for behavioral reasons (marking, fighting, etc.). Sassy has had several one-day heats, but has never had cytologic changes that indicate she is ready to be bred. Mary ("Kissy") just went in to heat Friday and will be spending the next two weeks with Tuffy in the honeymoon suite at the local hotel. One of the girls ("Mocha") has been placed in a home with breeder, in the hopes that an experienced breeder will be more likely to recognize the signs of heat in her and therefore will be able to bring her to Tuffy (or visa versa) at the appropriate time.


The other females that we received for possible breeding were too small and too sick to be considered- either they were not going to reach 4 pounds or their liver disease was so severe (and did not resolve with shunt surgery) that we did not want to endanger their lives; therefore, they were spayed. All of the dogs are living with Tennessee Yorkie people- many with veterinary faculty and staff- that have had Yorkies before. All are living in homes and are well loved. We do not do home inspections for placement and I do not do any home inspections after placement; we trust the people that are caring for these dogs and have seen the excellent condition of their other pets.


So, out of the one successful breeding, we have learned that the characteristic for shunts is not simple dominant, simple recessive, or sex linked, and that the disease can skip generations (although we do not know whether these healthy pups are carriers of the gene). The AKC grant was completed 2 years ago, and the results have been published in 2 scientific journals (attached below), so we are no longer doing pedigree studies. We've decided we will not accept any more dogs for breeding, but we hope to start looking at the actual gene assays, or assisting other researchers with this, using our Yorkie family and their offspring. Webmasters were asked several weeks ago to remove the $250 breeder incentive from their sites; hopefully that has been done. On a sadder note, we just lost Tilly last week to a liver lobe torsion (a portion of her liver twisted and she went into shock). She also had a uterine infection, and we were getting ready to spay her when she died. Everyone was devastated- it's hard to lose such a sweet family member.


Our second project is determining better ways to diagnose shunts. As you may know, nuclear scans (rectal scintigraphy) can tell us whether there is shunting or not, but they cannot tell us the type of shunt (i.e. whether it is surgically correctable, or whether there are multiple acquired shunts present). We have recently developed a better technique ("transplenic scintigraphy") for scanning dogs, and it seems to be able to diagnose multiple acquired versus single congenital shunts. The scan is quicker and uses less radioactivity, making it safer for us and the dogs. This funded project has just won the National Radiology Award, and two publications have been submitted. This study was also funded by an outside research grant that allowed us to pay for scintigraphy in over 40 dogs; we will continue to assess the dogs we've evaluated and hope to present our expanced results at next year's national surgery meeting.


Our third project is determining why some dogs have complications after surgery. This funded study is looking at blood sugar and hormone levels in our patients and may help us to predict which dogs will have problems immediately after surgery or later in life. Most often, dangerously low blood sugar affects Yorkies within 6 hours after the surgery, but other breeds are also affected. This study is ongoing and will continue until we can find the answer to this dangerous problem.


What is the bottom line of all our programs? We have determined that shunts are hereditary, that we might decrease the risk with less inbreeding, that it is passed as a genetic trait through multiple genes or through a gene that only expresses itself under certain conditions. With all of our experience that we have gained, our mortality rate is 1% for surgical correction (compared to 2-14% at other hospitals), and we see no fatal seizures after surgery in dogs (compared to 3-7% in other hospitals). Our dogs require no anti-seizure medication before surgery, and usually stay 1-2 nights in the hospital after surgery (compared to 2-4 at other hospitals) because of low postoperative complication rates. Our average surgery time is half that of most other referral hospitals, and 85% of our dogs are clinically normal 4-6 months after surgery.


University of Tennessee will continue to lead the country in clinical studies of dogs with shunts and we will continue to try and help Yorkie owners and other dog lovers by keeping the costs low. This gives us plenty of animals to evaluate, and tons of experience that will continually make us better. Currently we are giving owners an estimate of $1400-1600; this includes bloodwork, scintigraphy, anesthesia, surgery, and 2 days aftercare. We expect this estimate to rise every year with inflation, but have found that our prices are usually much less than at other clinics. Our administration may request that we increase these costs to reflect our expertise in the area (and to make them more equivalent to "market"- usually $2200-$4000) but so far we've been able to convince them of the value that information from these patients provides. (It also allows us to help more dogs!)


Please feel free to forward - so that everyone will be well informed.


Dr. Tobias, DVM, MS, Diplomate ACVS
Professor, Small Animal Surgery
University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine

I am sorry this happened to you. But I am glad that you did purchase your puppy, especially since you knew how to care for such a young puppy! I am sure that there are young puppies that do not survive because of being placed to young. I have actually seen 8 week old puppies with no teeth. I let my puppies nurse until between 6-8 weeks old.

Also with CKC (Continential Kennel Club) you can register about anything! You can register your dog as a purebred even though it may not be. For example I can find a dog along the road and think it resembles a yorkie and register it through CKC. So sometimes the breeders of CKC dogs do not even know the lines in which their breeders came from. Do not get me wrong, I am sure their are reputable CKC breeders around. But that is why it is so important to do your homework before purchasing any dog!

Chipper ....

May I ask how many years youve been breeding?
How many breeding males/females do you have?
You mention champion lines will you please share your pedigrees?
Are your breeding males/females champion sired?
Since you stress your Yorkshire Terriers fit the AKC standard to the "T" will you be kind enough to post current pictures of the Parents, pups and perhaps past pups?
Have you ever had your adults tested for "LP's"?
Have you ever had your adults tested for "LS"?
How many times are your puppies seen by a vet before leaving for their homes?
Do you offer a one year health guarantee?
At what age do you begin weaning your puppies?
At what age do you begin deworming and shot series?
Can you explain your comment "Blue chip special"?
How can you claim one 10 day old puppy is show quality?
How can you claim one 10 day old puppy will have the correct coat coloring?
How can you claim two pups were 7-8 oz larger at birth than the others, when your average newborn weight from your 5lb bitch ranges from 4-5 oz.
How can you claim you can only have one pup if you breed your female only once during her heat cycle?
How can you explain ear cropping (hiding the dumbo ears),when it is not done to the yorkshire terrier breed?

Whew...really glad you threw that statement in there...thanks! (I am a CKC breeder.) And yes, I know exactly what you mean...thankfully, they are taking steps towards fixing some of the problems with the registry, like these you've mentioned.:)

Thank you for your kind words. I am so glad that I have found this site! And yes, I am in the market for another furbaby. You know what they say just can't have one. Believe me I have done my homework this time and I will not be hastey and jump on one. This time I am in no hurry. And when I do find a breeder that I think is up to par, I will come here first and ask questions before I even think about putting a deposit on one. Thanks meeshue

Think of it this way, your little furchild fell into a pot of gold when you adopted her.

Thank you so much! meeshue

As a buyer I would never buy a puppy before 12 weeks!! They need socialization from their mother. To let them go between 5 and 6 weeks is ludicrous!!!:thumbdown

mind if I copy this ... I'd like to ask my vet a few questions . Ive had all of my adults tested but I still worry about this .... I have gotten some new lines recently and have had them tested also .. with sonigram and blood and spent alot of money having this all checked out ...I have not had one ... that I know of so far but I do worry about new lines and joining them into my breeding program ... some people will not be honest with you about their dogs we all know this ...

thanks thought Id ask first ...
Pat

I applaud breeders who do care and do have thier offspring checked . I have kept many of my offpring just for the pure reason of testing them .... for not just this but other things as well luxating patellas and many other things that afflict this breed from time to time ..

10-27-2005, 08:04 PM #1 chipperdancing
The "C" Section was at 1:30pm this afternoon, the cork stopper is a beautiful little girl weighing 5oz., and two boys, one 4.9oz. and one 4.2oz. I brought all three straight home and fed them.
This is Mini's first breeding, she doesn't seem to want anything to do with her babies~ HELP!

Yesterday, 04:08 PM #19 chipperdancing
I have bred her twice, both times on her 9th and 12th day. Both times one pup has been 7 or 8 ounces larger than the others. More than one Breeder has suggested the larger pup came from the first tie, getting somewhat of a headstart over the others.

Now please correct me if I am wrong, but the 10-27 post mentions nothing about a pup weighing 7 or 8 ounces more than the others. And which is it, 7 or 8? Her first litter on 10-27 showed that all weights were within an ounce of each other.

If the pups came from different ties, I cannot imagine that much difference in the weight.

hmmm...:confused: Interesting!

I have had the good fortune to be able, in the last 10 months, watch several litters of Yorkies, from birth to adoption. I have recently been watching the interaction of puppies 7 weeks old. It breaks my heart that when I got my little girl at 6 weeks, she was cheated out of this time with her litter mates. I had to teach her how to bark. When I got her, she was eating dry puppy food soaked in water to mush. She did not know how to drink water either out of a bowl or a lickit. The breeder cheated my little girl out of learning the things that she needed to learn. She was cheated out of socialization skills as well.

I look at these little 7 week old pups and realize my little girl was smaller than they are when I got her.

So no matter what you say and how much you try and convince yourself and others, these puppies are definately not ready to leave at 5-6 weeks of age. They are just getting their sea legs.

I also take offense that you would call a 13-14 lb yorkie a "Porkie-Yorkie". WRONG!!!!!!! I fell in love with one that I saw and thought she was absolutely beautiful.

And....."IF" what you say is true and you had a puppy, 7 or 8 ounces larger than the others, what guarantee do you have that you would not be selling a larger than standard.

If the 7-8 ounce pup had to have weighed at least 11-12 ounces at birth. Large puppy, huh!!!!!!!!!

This should be the last thing I post.



Which is it? James and Noel Parker or
William & Rhonda Kent - (541) 888-4128 -

Can someone tell me this secret of determining show quailty at just a few weeks old lol? This way when my pup is hopfully born. Bitch was just bred (no not mine, im not a breeder) I can go and look at these few week old pups and say I want that one, that one is going to be a champion.
Oh well I can wish cant I?

Whew......
 

You guys have been extremely cordial to Chipper......much nicer than my thoughts.....


Ah, ah, ah, ........oh hell......some people are just plain, "clueless"


Lets move on.....

If your puppies eyes are not open by 10 weeks old then I would say you have a serious defected puppy. Puppies eyes usually open by 2 weeks old.

Meeshu though your furbaby is adorable, and obviously very loved...I have to tend to agree here, something must have "jumped the fence" and had a romance with her mommy. :) And you are right, at 8 weeks, I'm sure she looked pretty much like she should .. it's just too young to tell anything. Glad you learned a valuable lesson, sorry it was the hard way. :)

Funny out of all the things wrong in the start of this thread that you would only catch the typo! Incase you do not get what I am trying to convey is this, I meant 10 DAYS NOT 10 WEEKS! I would also like to add that NOT all puppies have their eyes open by 10 days old.

I got both of my Yorkies at an early age. first one 5 weeks only because it was hurt and momma dog was pushing it away, I was told.so I took her in.and had her checked. #2 -8 weeks and #3- 6 weeks. At those ages all of them had their eyes open all of them could eat on their own, all of them did fine. and turned out to be very smart loving babies. Would I let my babies go at that age? NO NOt because I dont think they can make it on their own, Witch some smaller ones may not be able to at that age. But because I think they should stay with their mommas as long as they can.
BUt I really dont see the point in coming back to this thread and posting over and over what you think. Why not post your opinions and be done with it.

I have to say I find it sickening for someone to cut and paste information on Liver Shunt, when they obviously have no grasp on simple animal husbandry, much less the complexities of inherited diseases. The excuse people use "you can't prove it's hereditary" is nothing but that.. an excuse! Until you can prove it is NOT...you have no business breeding anything that isn't tested, and EVERY OFFSPRING tested. How do we erradicate this problem in the breed? As breeders, WE ARE RESPONSIBLE...if we do our parts to eliminate LS from our breeding programs, and responsibly alter any offsrping which test high, thus eliminating them from our program, then WE ARE DOING OUR PART. The same goes for Luxating Patellas, Legg Perthes, Collapsing Trachea, PDA and other heart defects...blue born pups, brown born pups, ETC ETC ETC. If you can't manage to be part of the solution, please DON'T be part of the PROBLEM. Excuses are like buttholes, everyone has one, and most of them stink! They are only a way for people like you to justify in your own mind that you are doing nothing wrong. :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

I honestly do not think ANYONE would be able to tell if a puppy is of show quality at 2 weeks old! So many things on the puppies have not even developed at that young of an age. Many people say things that are not necessarily true, they do it to sell puppies!

But didn't you read? Blue is ALREADY BLUE AND GOLD at ten days old...that CERTAINLY makes him show quality, don't you think?? :D

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Amen! I could not have stated that any better!