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-   Yorkie Showing & Information (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yorkie-showing-information/)
-   -   Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yorkie-showing-information/219354-question-about-exhibitor-show-breeder-litters.html)

Nancy1999 12-30-2010 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furbaby Friend (Post 3374882)
This is really the main point of good breeders continuing to breed despite the overload I think. Imagine if they just stopped and left all the "pet supply" (I know that sounds crud, but can't think of another way to say it... please take it as I mean it and not how it sounds) to the mills and BYB because there were too many pups... the breed would be unrecognizable after a short time :(. The reputable breeders producing 24 puppies or whatever in whatever time isn't the problem, it is those that don't give a flying flip about anything except the money that's the problem!
I think I know how you mean it and I agree, also a big factor is that reputable breeders insist on limited registration. Pet breeders often will sell breeding rights to anyone willing to spend a few extra dollars. So many breeders have bought their breeding dogs without any training whatsoever, and the cycle continues.

DvlshAngel985 12-30-2010 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furbaby Friend (Post 3374882)
This is really the main point of good breeders continuing to breed despite the overload I think. Imagine if they just stopped and left all the "pet supply" (I know that sounds crud, but can't think of another way to say it... please take it as I mean it and not how it sounds) to the mills and BYB because there were too many pups... the breed would be unrecognizable after a short time :(. The reputable breeders producing 24 puppies or whatever in whatever time isn't the problem, it is those that don't give a flying flip about anything except the money that's the problem!
Yeah, I guess that was my point. With the amount of pet quality dogs being churned out by greeders in about the time it takes for one champion to be produced from quality lines, the yorkie breed can become unrecognizable.

Anyone remember these sad looking pups?Coming Soon -
They're definitely pets, but I wouldn't consider them yorkies if I wasn't told they were suppose to be yorkies. It's like saying, they're going to be pets anyway, so what does it matter what they look like. I know that sounds down right mean, but I'm not saying all dogs shouldn't be loved, just if anyone wants to breed, do it with a purpose. And cute puppies is definitely not a good enough reason to breed.

bchgirl 12-30-2010 05:50 PM
In this discussion it's been forgotten this breeder has 5 - 10 litters per YEAR

gemy 12-30-2010 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 3374910)
In this discussion it's been forgotten this breeder has 5 - 10 litters per YEAR
Well 5 litters is not so much with on average 4 breeding females. 10 litters, well I'd like to see two or three person help, and you would be awfully busy in the show ring. Finishing champions, supervising, and investigating best breeding matches etc.

I don't think anyone can categorically state 10 litters is too many in any and all circumstances. So much more needs to be known other than the absolute numbers

Furbaby Friend 12-30-2010 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 3374910)
In this discussion it's been forgotten this breeder has 5 - 10 litters per YEAR
There came a point in the thread where it stopped being about this one particular breeder and took a turn into exhibitor breeders in general.

We've all already agreed THAT "breeder" is kinda iffy to most of us. :rolleyes:

Furbaby Friend 12-30-2010 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985 (Post 3374905)
Yeah, I guess that was my point. With the amount of pet quality dogs being churned out by greeders in about the time it takes for one champion to be produced from quality lines, the yorkie breed can become unrecognizable.

Anyone remember these sad looking pups?Coming Soon -
They're definitely pets, but I wouldn't consider them yorkies if I wasn't told they were suppose to be yorkies. It's like saying, they're going to be pets anyway, so what does it matter what they look like. I know that sounds down right mean, but I'm not saying all dogs shouldn't be loved, just if anyone wants to breed, do it with a purpose. And cute puppies is definitely not a good enough reason to breed.
:(:(:( ::shivers:: That... dog... still gives me the oogies when I look at it. Poor thing.

Furbaby Friend 12-30-2010 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy (Post 3374916)
Well 5 litters is not so much with on average 4 breeding females. 10 litters, well I'd like to see two or three person help, and you would be awfully busy in the show ring. Finishing champions, supervising, and investigating best breeding matches etc.

I don't think anyone can categorically state 10 litters is too many in any and all circumstances. So much more needs to be known other than the absolute numbers
And this is a good point... the breeder could have the money and resources to pull this off. We don't actually know anything about them besides the number of litters.

I actually don't even know who we're talking about specifically, nor do I care to know.

Nancy1999 12-30-2010 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 3374910)
In this discussion it's been forgotten this breeder has 5 - 10 litters per YEAR
I don't think you can judge someone breeding skills, just by the number of litters a year, it's definitely an indicator, but a serious breeder often has a minimum of 5 breeding bitches. If each one had 1 litter a year, that's 5 litters, Again I see a difference between 5 and ten, but ten is still within the range, if a breeder has ample help. Same with pet owners, some people have no problem taking care of 5 pets; yet this would overload other pet owners. Questions we should be concerned with are how is this breeder selling her dogs, does she find good homes, does she place them on limited registration, what are the kennel conditions, is there proper vet care? Does she stand behind her dogs, does she do health testing, does she sell breeding dogs to people with no breeding skills, and no mentoring. So many things should be used to access breeder capabilities. I would rather see someone breeding ten litters a year who thoroughly knew what they were doing, then someone who just breed a couple of litters, and was clueless.

Furbaby Friend 12-30-2010 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3374936)
I don't think you can judge someone breeding skills, just by the number of litters a year, it's definitely an indicator, but a serious breeder often has a minimum of 5 breeding bitches. If each one had 1 litter a year, that's 5 litters, Again I see a difference between 5 and ten, but ten is still within the range, if a breeder has ample help. Same with pet owners, some people have no problem taking care of 5 pets; yet this would overload other pet owners. Questions we should be concerned with are how is this breeder selling her dogs, does she find good homes, does she place them on limited registration, what are the kennel conditions, is there proper vet care? Does she stand behind her dogs, does she do health testing, does she sell breeding dogs to people with no breeding skills, and no mentoring. So many things should be used to access breeder capabilities. I would rather see someone breeding ten litters a year who thoroughly knew what they were doing, then someone who just breed a couple of litters, and was clueless.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: :yeahthat:

And again Nancy is way more awesome at expressing her points than I will ever be.

Ladyhawk 12-30-2010 06:52 PM
We have several exhibitors around here that finsh 4 dogs a year. This can't be done without having quite a few litters to produce those show dogs. Breeders can't be judged by how many litters they produce each year but on how well the dogs are kept, how the puppies are placed, and if the goal of perserving and improving the breed is being sought.

lisaly 12-30-2010 07:35 PM
I've read through all of this, and I think the number ten or even five stands out because of what we've read here on YT by some about what makes someone a good breeder or what constitutes a show breeder. I may be incorrect, but I don't think those that are talking about the 23 dogs that don't make it to championship, are questioning the worth of those dogs. When I was looking for my dogs, I wasn't important to me to have a show quality dog , yet I looked for someone who I thought was breeding for the health and welfare of the pups. I did and still do want to have a dog that is healthy, has an excellent temperament, the Yorkie spunk and heart, and is a good, solid representation of the breed. If a breeder is doing health testing, evaluating their breeding stock, very carefully placing their pups into loving homes, and trying to breed to produce quality dogs, that's what is important to me, even to supply the pet market. They also need to spend good quality time to care for the needs of the pups, properly socialize them, and provide excellent vet care. I know there is an overpopulation problem, but if there aren't people to provide quality dogs to the pet market, won't more people turn to bybs and puppymills? I prefer to focus more on the ethics, knowledge, love, and passion of the breeder rather than the number of litters a year if all the other factors are carefully considered. I agree that the number can raise red flags, and it definitely should be looked into, but it is one of many factors that should be considered.

Sugar's Mom 12-31-2010 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 3374910)
In this discussion it's been forgotten this breeder has 5 - 10 litters per YEAR
You are right but I think that is the norm for some of these exhibitor/breeders with larger kennels. I "heard" of a well known kennel in Texas that has an outside kennel and keeps 70-90 dogs on ground at all times (unless she has recently downsized) Granted, she does have kennel help but that is a lot of dogs just to keep and you know as well as I do that she is not showing all those dogs. it would be impossible. However, I do know that she also studs her males out to almost anyone that has the $2,000 cash stud fee. You take your girl to her and leave her and the breeder then picks out a suitable male for her. I have been told on here that show people rarely if ever, stud their males out. This woman is financially stable as they say but where do you think she got her money? From the dogs of course.

Wylie's Mom 12-31-2010 05:43 AM
Hmmmm...this whole thread sparks a lot of thought for me...and some of my thoughts are still mulling around too much for me to articulate them.

I guess one thing that is really bothering me is that even though someone may have great kennel facilities/help or whatever...and in their minds are properly supporting their quantity of dogs - I'm just not comfortable with what I see as a 'volume breeder' - whether it be an Exhibitor, a Mill, or a good breeder who doesn't show.

So, not only was my initial shock driven by my confusion over an Exhibitor being a volume breeder (as I see it), but also by the sheer volume itself....whether or not they were a show breeder.

I prefer pups to be raised in the home. That just feels right to me.

manolos mom 12-31-2010 07:09 AM
Being a new Exhibitor myself I have learned so much in the past 6 months. Volume Breeder's are not my choice and I feel they may be breeding for the income. When buying a dog the first thing you look at is the Kennel Name. From there you can start your research. Are they a YTCA Member? How many litters per year? How many times per year is the bitch bred? How many bitches?How many dogs? What age do they retire their dogs and Bitches? Size, Weight, Hereditary diseases, Cleanliness, the dogs quarters,(love google earth) Are they breeding for the standard or for tiny's? With a little research you can tell if they are money driven breeders. Also, it takes a lot of time and money to Champion a Dog. Lissette

jencar98 12-31-2010 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3374816)
I think you don't understand, it is not to get a champion title behind the name, the champion title just means that that dog has had approval of others to breed. This may or may not even be legitimate approval, but that's another point. If breeders do not breed Yorkies, who are a good example, the Yorkshire terrier will not look anything like it does right now, it's taken many years to produce these dogs. I think it's very hard to develop an eye if you don't show, and you must remember a good breeders goal is also to preserve and improve the breed.
Nancy, I understand just fine, and please know, I understand a lot more than some people think that I do;)


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