[News] Just What Kind of Breed Is That?

[fasteddie]

Anyone seen a YorkiPoo in person before? :P
That's a Labradoodle pictured below.
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http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/images/labradoodle.jpg
Angie Daugherty was so eager to take possession of her new-breed Labradoodle pup that she drove up to Lapel to see it at two weeks of age. She wouldn't be able to take the dog home with her for at least another six weeks.

"I like the look of the dog, the size and the non-shedding," said Daugherty, a 39-year-old Carmel accountant.

Millions of people a year buy a pup. What makes this scene special is a dog whose breed name you won't find in the American Kennel Club registry, or in any printed matter from decades past.

The Labradoodle is a made-up name for a Labrador and poodle cross-breed. The mix supposedly was "invented" in Australia in the late 1980s by breeders intent on coming up with a dog that combined the perceived hypoallergenic qualities of a poodle with the family-friendly nature of a Labrador.

Since then, other specialty hybrid dogs such as the Goldendoodle (Golden Retriever and poodle), Yorkipoo (Yorkshire terrier and toy poodle) and puggle (pug and beagle) have caught the attention of dog fanciers looking for something out of the ordinary.

Jane Stanger, a former nurse, has been breeding Labradoodles in her Anderson home the past couple of years. She paid $34,000 for Velvet and Koby, two stud Australian Labradoodles.

"It's mostly Lab and poodle with some Irish water spaniel and then a couple of other breeds, but (the Australian breeder) won't tell us which," said Stanger. "It's a secret recipe."

Like a Disney dog

Stanger's adult Labradoodles look a bit like the shaggy dog in the old Walt Disney movie of the same name, and a little like a cross between a Lab and poodle, as advertised. The wiry hair seems as if it was transplanted from '60s political activist and hippie Abbie Hoffman.

Size can vary considerably. Breeding a standard poodle with a Lab will give offspring that may be any size between the two. Some breeders use a toy poodle as a stud, which results in an adult dog about the size of a cocker spaniel.

Brian Brodette drove all the way down from suburban Chicago to southern Indiana to pick up his Labradoodle from breeder Julie Neukam in rural DuBois County. Brodette paid $800 for the dog.

"I would say it's much smarter than the typical Lab, because of the poodle," said Brodette, 47, who is married with three children. "But it has the same temperament as a Lab. It's a great family dog."

The hypoallergenic reputation of poodles also helped, said Brodette. Poodles have an undercoat, which results in less shedding.

Michael Wagenbach, who breeds Weimardoodles (Weimaraner/poodles) and Labradoodles in Wolcott, Ind., calls poodles "the standard for non-shedding and hypoallergenic" dogs.

Yet most breeders, Wagenbach included, as well as a Purdue University veterinarian, note there are no guarantees when cross-breeding dogs. You won't know which parent's genes a puppy will inherit until it's born.

And hair and hair loss may not be issues anyway.

"Most people are not allergic to the hair," said Saralyn Sharp, a registered veterinary technician in Small Animal Community Practice at Purdue's School of Veterinary Medicine.

"They're allergic to the dander -- the dead skin, and every animal has dander," said Sharp.

Puggles are popular

The puggle is a more recent crossbreed also said to provide some health benefit -- this time, to the dog itself. If the match works, a puggle will have a face somewhat similar to that of a pug, but a body closer to that of a beagle. Color is often a shade of fawn.

"The beagle has the good personality, the happy-go-lucky personality," said Phil Knepp, a part-time breeder in Odon, Ind. "You still get the pug look . . . "

Puggle pups sell for about $400, but prices can vary widely.

Like most puggle breeders, Knepp uses a beagle female and pug stud because beagles are seen as better mothers than pugs.

Puggles may also breathe easier than purebred pugs.

"One of the issues with pugs is their soft palate, which is elongated and stretches into their throat," said Cara Gardner, a veterinarian at Broad Ripple Animal Clinic.

The breed's stubby muzzle and long soft palate lead to breathing problems, and snoring, as well.

Whether a puggle will lack the unwelcome characteristics of both breeds (beagles can bark a lot), or incorporate problems from both, is a question that will be answered only when the dog is full-grown, experts say.

The same goes for general appearance.

Yet Sharon Turner, owner of the Tinytykes kennel in Caledonia, Wis., says breeders can control for outcomes if they're careful. The trick is to stick with the same stud and mother, she says.

"Then you can pretty much predict what you're going to get in the future," Turner said.

Local radio personality Tom Griswold (WFBQ 94.7) imported two Labradoodles from Australia a couple of years ago. Griswold already had two Golden retrievers, but his youngest son wanted smaller animals, and a friend recommended the Labradoodle.

"It's almost like buying a car," Griswold said. "They literally come in five colors and five hair types. They have small, medium and large."

Tazzie is a light golden female Labradoodle, and Daxie is a tan-white male. Griswold says he paid several thousand dollars for the pair, including shipping.

Some people believe cross-breeds such as the Labradoodle and puggle are healthier overall, just because they're not purebred. That's why some breeders will usually go back to the original disparate breeds for a litter of Labradoodles or puggles, rather than mating previously crossbred dogs to each other.

The evidence for such "hybrid vigor," as it's called, is mixed. Gardner points out that purebred dogs often have been bred for recessive genes, with less regard for health issues than is wise.

"There are reasons why dominant genes are dominant," Gardner said.

Ancestors' health matters

Yet Purdue's Sharp says it's largely a myth that mixed-breed dogs are healthier than purebreds because all dogs have such closely related genes, irrespective of outward appearance.

Sharp recommends that owners who are really concerned about the health of their dogs go to an established breeder and demand proof of health of the dog's ancestors, as far back as possible.

They also should be prepared to pay for a veterinary exam to look for signs of maladies known to afflict specific breeds. For example, Sharp says, Labs should be checked for hip dysplasia and receive a heart, eye and thyroid check-up, as well.

"If they've done this kind of testing, then to me it's worth paying $1,000, because then I know the stock behind my dog is mostly free of genetic defects," Sharp said.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/1/196769-7271-047.html

[fasteddie]

More info:
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A look at the mixes

Crossbreeds are supposed to combine the best characteristics of two breeds, but you won't really know that until after they're born. Pricing typically is the same as the more expensive of the two breeds, or a little higher. Prices can vary widely, though.
• Puggle: This pug and beagle mix weighs 14 to 20 pounds in adulthood, and is 13 to 15 inches high at the shoulder. A typical puggle has a curly tail, and is tan with a black muzzle. From $400 to $700.
• Labradoodle: Labrador and poodle mix (standard, toy or miniature) started the crossbreed trend in the late 1980s. It's said to be hypoallergenic, but about all you can hope for is that it will shed less. A Lab/standard poodle version is about 25 to 30 inches tall and weighs 35 to 45 pounds. About $600.
• Yorkipoo: Mix of Yorkshire terrier and miniature poodle has a soft, silky coat. Weighs 4 to 10 pounds and is 7 to 8 inches tall. Can get pricey -- $1,000 or more.
• Goldendoodle: Coat's appearance ranges anywhere from shaggy retriever to "relaxed-curl" poodle. Adults usually are 20 to 24 inches tall at the shoulder and weigh 45 to 75 pounds. Cost is $650 and up.


Oodles of doodles

Crossbreeds are coming online almost as fast as new car models from Detroit and Japan; many involve a poodle as one parent because the breed doesn't shed and it is perceived to be intelligent.
Ask your veterinarian to recommend a good breeder, and request documentation of all health claims made for a pup and its parents.
Breeders consulted for this article include:
• Tinytykes Puppies (Yorkipoos and a lot more) in Caledonia, Wis. Online at http://tinytykespuppies .com or phone (715) 572-7990 weekdays.
• Phil Knepp (puggles) in Odon. Call (812) 486-8713, or send e-mail to philknepp@hotmail.com .
• Lincoln Manor (Labradoodles, goldendoodles) in Anderson. Call (765) 642-8287.
• Pups4kids.com in Lake County, Ill. Call (847) 249-7877 or online at www.pups4kids.com.
• Hickory Doodles (goldendoodles and Labradoodles) in DuBois County, Ind. Call (812) 678-5704.
• Sunshine Acres in Wolcott. Call (219) 279-2422 or send e-mail to bowwow@sugardog.com.

[MeiMei girl]

Has anyone seen a Shorkie?? It is a yorkie and shih tzu mix, which are usually cute! I saw a 12 week male last year and he was a little more beefy than a yorkie, had the yorkie ears, a medium brownish fluffy coat with a short muzzle and bigger eyes than a yorkie.........he was really cute and different looking.

[Yorkie24U]

Post removed at request of poster...

[bettyeanne]

The main reason we paid "Way Over the TOP Dollar" for Toto was because we learned that one of the main reasons for the "purebred" was that breeders are really trying to eliminate health problems common in the Yorkie. Even though our breeder raises "show dogs", we were never interested in showing one of our own, although I do find it fascinating and keep up with some of Toto's relatives. We also weren't interested in breeding which is why we planned, even before we ever saw our baby, to have her spayed. I have to agree with Yorkie24U, if I were going to pay for a dog, I would go to a rescue before I would buy a "Top Dollar Mutt". I realize everyone has their own preference ... this was just mine.

[Chester]

Well Chester is mixed with lasha and yorkie, he is far from being a mutt. His dad very small Lasha apso and his mom is very small 100% yorkie. He was breed by a breeder who's husband sells puppies. If you look at chester you would never know that he was mixed. He weighs 5 pounds at 2.5 years and has no no trace of lasha except for personalty for garding. He is the sweetest dog an loving.
HE IS FAR FROM BEING A MUTT and we are glad we got him!!

[bettyeanne]

Ygeorge ... after re-reading my post, I realize that I didn't really make myself clear and sounded like I was insulting any pet that wasn't purebred. I was mortified!! That wasn't what I meant at all ... I meant that we shouldn't encourage those "puppy mill" breeders who are evidently trying to breed for the sake of selling pets which are "odd", such as a small one and a very large one for the sake of selling these "oddities" for a lot of money. I meant that I would get a "rescue" before I would pay one of these breeders. I didn't mean to be critical of any mix and I profoundly apoligize that it sounded like I was. I would never, ever insult one of God's creatures! Please accept my apology? Also, please let Chester know that I think he is gorgeous and would never consider him a "mutt".

[Tay794]

What about Morkies or Yorktese? (Maltese-yorkie or yorkie-maltese)

[yorkipower]

Originally Posted by Tay794

What about Morkies or Yorktese? (Maltese-yorkie or yorkie-maltese)

OK, I'm getting controversial here. Please, I do not mean to offend but I think you all know what is coming. . .

So, I DO love mutts! What I don't love is this fallacy of the "super-mutt" or the "designer-dog" that according to the article people are willing to drive all day for and plop down fantastic amounts of money for.

Just so you know that I am not biased here: if you want to see what a "Yortese" probably looks like, please visit my website and look at the "Yorkie" in the superman outfit, because there's a very good chance you are looking at a Yorkie Maltese mix. He's my little man and super little athlete but there's three other things you need to know about him 1) he is an adoption from an animal shelter 2) he cost me the hefty sum of a $40 donation to the shelter 3) three years after adopting him, he almost died of a rare and potentially fatal autoimmune deficiency called "Addison’s disease" - relatively rare in Yorkshire Terriers. So much for the "out-cross" “hybrid” fallacy!

Good breeders who practice according to the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America's ethics rules do not breed Yorkipoos or Morkies or any other flavor of the month they can come up with. They do, however, take dogs who have genetic faults out of their breeding programs. Just because a dog is a mutt, does not mean it can't pick up a genetic problem from one or both of its parents. (I believe there were problems with labadoodles?? “Despite the benefits of hybrid vigor, Labradoodles aren’t ‘superdogs’. Skin problems have been reported as the most common issue, with reports suggesting that many Labradoodles have had skin problems varying from minor to serious.”??).

Now, if you are looking at my "son" and saying: "he looks like a typical pet Yorkie!" You are right! While I can't prove conclusively one way or the other (and since he competes under an Indefinite listing Privilege ("ILP"), I'm not about to anyhow), the reason you can't see the Maltese (unless you know the breed standards backwards and forwards and even then he still look a heck of a lot like the Yorkie in the pet shop window) is because of the history of the Yorkshire Terrier. Most breeds, with perhaps the exception of the most ancient, Salukies and Maltese (and recent genetic testing has even brought THAT into question) are the products of crossings with other breeds. The exact origins of the Yorkshire Terrier are not well known. We do know that Yorkies are the products of crossings of various Northern English terriers such as the Clydesdale, Paisley, Dales and Broken Coat but there's also some speculation that the Maltese was brought in to soft and silken the coat as well as give it the length. So, if this is true, your average "Yorktese" is no more than a throwback! I wonder how many of the people selling these dogs would admit that, or better yet, even KNOW that! (When you visit general message boards where people sell dogs, it is almost horrifying to see that these so-called breeders often can’t even spell the breed of dogs they are selling correctly! I’ve seen “Chihuahua” spelled “Chiwawa”)!

Here's a more basic question: why would you make such a cross? What's the point? Each breed is unique now, products of generations of careful breeding, each bred for a specific purpose and “type”; in the Maltese's case, going back hundreds of years! Mix them together and you dilute the best parts of each. If you want a scrappy little darling, you get a Yorkie, if you want a regal couch sitter, you get a Maltese. They are very different types of dogs - why mix them?

Here's a better idea, go to http://www.petfinder.com and find the perfect mutt and give it a home!

[bettyeanne]

Thank you, yorkiepower. Very well said ... that's what I meant. I love all animals as well!!

[Chester]

Hi Bettyeanne,

Thanks
I think I read the note on one of my bad days too. So I also apologize also. It been said that word come across stronger on paper then if we were to say them in person. On paper there is no emotion attached, you can not see the persons face as they are talking.

cc.yorkipower I also read just the other day that yorkies were breed with maltese as well. P.s Enjoyed your note

[yorkipower]

Originally Posted by Ygeorge

Hi Bettyeanne,

Thanks
I think I read the note on one of my bad days too. So I also apologize also. It been said that word come across stronger on paper then if we were to say them in person. On paper there is no emotion attached, you can not see the persons face as they are talking.

cc.yorkipower I also read just the other day that yorkies were breed with maltese as well. P.s Enjoyed your note

Thank you all for your feedback. Glad to be of help!

One comment -
George, you did take some offence to having your dog called a "mutt." Please don't! When people stop me on the street and ask me what kind of dog my little man is I will tell them that he's a Mr. Bun! They then ask me where they can get one, and I politly inform them that when God made Bun, they broke the mold!

To be honest, I don't think the word "mutt" is an insult
(some of my most beloved dogs in my life have been members of the "M" word constituency)! Well, if you want to be politically correct, "mixes" "unregistered" or "paperly challenged." It's like calling someone a blond or a brunette!

A mutt is just a dog whose parents were of two different breeds, or were of unknown breeding (mutts or unregistered purebreds themselves)and in either case, cannot be registered as a purebred with any of the major dog registries (or listed as one of the more ancient, rare breeds - for instance the Neopolitan Mastiff and Glen of Immal Terrier are both purbreds, because stud books were kept on them for ages and these books were "closed" but both breeds were only recently accepted into the AKC (in comparison the article about the puggles illustrates that they "create" these dogs by going back to crosses of beagle with pug rather than puggle to puggle)). So, by that definition, your dog IS a mutt but that doesn't make him any less cute or lovable!

On a side note, since we are talking about "good breeders" and "bad breeders," and "good" and "bad" breeding, I do have to admit that although I understand that Yorkietalk does not have control over the adds Google (ah-ha?) posts on this site, and someone has to pay for the cost of this message board, there are some "Advertisments" I wish were not posted up there. Some of these breeders whose links are being hosted use words like "Teacup" in thier advertisng and sell crosses like "Tzu and Yorkie." I'll leave it at that to avoid causing "trouble." N'est pas?

[yorkipower]

While I rant on . . .

I know a lot of Standard Poodle people who would be offended by the notion that their dogs are not "family friendly"! Aside from being some of the smartest dogs going, you wont find a more gentle and loving breed! Plus a Poodle is just as, if not more so, bitable than a Lab! If you just look at which breeds win highest honors in obedience competitions each year, you'd see the Standard Poodle ranks right up there, second maybe, only to the Border Collie! Why on Earth would you need to cross a Poodle with a Lab if all you wanted was a good natured family dog? You've already got it in the Standard Poodle!

[bettyeanne]

Originally Posted by Ygeorge

Hi Bettyeanne,

Thanks
I think I read the note on one of my bad days too. So I also apologize also. It been said that word come across stronger on paper then if we were to say them in person. On paper there is no emotion attached, you can not see the persons face as they are talking.

cc.yorkipower I also read just the other day that yorkies were breed with maltese as well. P.s Enjoyed your note

Thank you!! It is hard for me to communicate what I really mean sometimes ... my poor husband just tolerates me!!

[browniesmom622]

my friend has a puggle he also has a pug here she is the puggle and looking in to getting a bishonpoo