Wow....that comment by 107barney was quoted and OBVIOUSLY meant for pstinard. You seriously need to stop taking things so personal!!!

:thumbup: We are all happy that Piper is doing well AND that we have all of you here on YT! :)

Obviously you DO care. I think you need to go back after you have calmed down a bit and read and digest this entire thread. NO WHERE do I see where anyone attacked YOU.

As to your credentials, you are not the expert we are discussing. This thread is not about YOU .. although you have turned the discussion towards yourself which is totally baffling to me.

I am not professing to be an expert on anything. I share my experiences and voice my opinions just like anyone else.

well now...cough it up now...not later. If you say it is dangerous, there should be NO delay!! This thread is likely to be closed soon and people should know what you see as dangerous! You might be saving the life of someone's pet. Isn't that part of the reason we are here? To help our beloved pets?

Oh no... There must be a great unveiling....

Yeah, well it always makes me leery when a professional bashes another, especially when they are of different professions.

Truth in Advertising
 

This lawsuit is about truth in advertising. Sadly, the best dog food companies do not have multi million dollar advertising budgets. They have to put all of their resources into producing their food. If you really want to know what you are feeding your dog then you should select from the small list of companies that have taken "The Pledge" provided by The Association for Truth in Pet Food. ( Evermore Pet Food - a company co-owned by my daughter is among them.). These companies are completely transparent about the quality and the origin of their ingredients and the pledge is signed by the company CEO. This information is available for free at
Association for Truth in Pet Food – The Pledge
I might add that neither Purina or Blue Buffalo have taken this Pledge.
When it comes to food, no kibble can compete with fresh food, but you do get what you pay for and fresh food of the highest quality is expensive. If cost is an object then you might want to consider using a high quality product as a mixer. I might add that the two women who own Evermore Pet Food ate their dog food for lunch every day of March 2011. For the rest of the day they consumed only ingredients that were used in the food. This was to demonstrate the integrity of their ingredients.

And without further ado, LOL! :D But seriously, what I was going to say, is that I did a lot of reading up on "meat and bone meal" (one of Purina's and other inexpensive commercial dog food's main ingredients) as a dog food ingredient. If you do a regular google search, you will find that most people have nothing good to say about it. You *could* chalk that up to the people writing about it being the ignorant masses acting on mob mentality. So I decided to check out the scholarly vet nutrition literature, and almost all articles (including Dr. Remillard's) say that it is a good source of high quality protein, and is not a bad ingredient to have in dog food. HOWEVER, the two most recent and frequently cited articles made their own "meat and bone meal" in house for their feeding experiments. They did not use commercial preparations.

My thoughts and conclusions are this: If you are going to make your own "meat and bone meal" or "poultry byproduct meal" and use known ingredients, then knock yourself out. It's probably healthy! BUT, the commercial grade "meat and bone meal" allows the use of dead and diseased animals, road kill, euthanized pets, and the fecal matter that may be present in the intestines. The cooking process will undoubtedly sterilize it, so your dog won't be ingesting dangerous bacteria (unless the food processor has additional health code violations), and the protein and nutritional content will *probably* be fine. But, I see the following problems:

(1) Antibiotics and other drugs might not be destroyed in the cooking process, and can contaminate food lots.

(2) If the meat is of unknown origin, it will be impossible to eliminate protein sources that your dog might be allergic to, should your dog be one of the rare few who has food allergies.

(3) Mad cow disease. That disease is now under control, but the indiscriminate use of "meat and bone meal" in animal feeds is what allowed it to spread. The infectious agent (a prion) was not killed in the cooking process. While mad cow disease may not be a problem any more, use of dead animals of unknown provenance *could* allow the re-emergence and spread of similar types of diseases.

Now, Dr. Remillard (and other trained vet nutritionists) say that "meat and bone meal" is a quality ingredient, and the DFA thinks that it is poison incarnate. I am closer to the DFA's point of view on this one issue. It would make me very nervous feeding my dog food that has unregulated and unknown ingredients. I WILL try to contact Dr. Remillard by email and see if I've mischaracterized her position on this. If I hear back, I'll let you know and give a clarification.

So, in summary, I take the good and the bad from all sources and form my own opinion, and that's all I'm asking people to do. As far as Purina and Blue Buffalo go, I feed my cat Purina One (which contains named ingredients as its main ingredients) and I feel Bella Blue Buffalo (which also contains named ingredients as its main ingredients).

There is really no reason to close this thread. Please, please Admin, don't close this thread! I haven't had a chance to address the issue of GMO corn, LOL! More on that later :)

Great, can't wait to see what she says.

:):):) I'll copy what I just posted and ask her if it's accurate and a fair statement of the situation.

Oh yes, I know that Purina states that their suit is about truth in advertising. They have even made a new ad campaign based around the lawsuit that is failing miserably, judging by public comment. This is one of those "spirit of the law" vs "letter of the law" situations. Purina is bashing Blue Buffalo for some of the same ingredients that Purina uses slipping into a couple of bags of Blue Buffalo dog food, some of those ingredients being in very small quantities by Purina's own admission. The suit doesn't even say who did the analysis, or how the analysis was done. FWIW, Blue Buffalo is preparing a counter-suit, so we'll see how this plays out in court.

If a dog food lists "chicken meal" as an ingredient, is this the same as "meat meal"? Or does chicken meal guarantee that it does not include road kill and euthanized animals?

Chicken meal means that it HAS to contain chicken, so it's safe in that regard. The "meal" part means that it can contain organ meats and other less desirable cuts of meat, though. It will NOT contain road kill or euthanized animals, since chickens are rarely picked up off the roads, or euthanized at animal shelters.

I don't find myself qualified to do that. Call me a blind follower if you choose, but I have chosen to ignore the man I feel is behaving like a carnival barker. I have yet to see a vet or vet nutritionist employ such methods. I don't want to go back to school and I am not educated in animal nutrition. I see lay people every day googling and calling their information research. I just don't believe it is a way to educate oneself. Again, you would have to pick and choose because we all know there is valid and invalid information all over the web. I have chosen the people I believe are more qualified than the DFA. My choice for my pups and it has worked well for me and for them.
Not going to pick and choose from a man I have such distrust of.

The three points you make pstinard could apply to meat or any food source in general, could they not? In response to each point I will say this:

1. Antibiotics can contaminate feed lots, period. This means that the meat, the bone, or the byproducts of the animals could be contaminated just as the meat and bone meal could. So finding a product w/o meal doesn't eliminate this first point of contention.

2. As you correctly point out, dogs with true food allergy are rare, with less than 10% of dogs having a true food allergy. Those rare dogs are usually placed on food elimination trials with home cooked ingredients or foods that are marketed for this issue. Since most dogs have food intolerance and not allergy, using a more restricted product that is OTC may indeed resolve the symptoms.

3. Mad cow disease. This gets back to the whole feed lot problem, and the food system as a whole. Eliminating bone meal from the mix doesn't address this larger problem nor eliminate its risks. I personally try to avoid eating CAFO animals but it's not always possible to do.

Since I believe I had heard that you are a corn geneticist by training, and not a veterinary nutritionist, I will be looking for your thoughts on GMO corn. I don't eat corn, but my dogs do, and I think it is a quality ingredient for them. They find it palatable especially with a little butter on it mixed with their meats.

As for Rebecca Remillard, she has gone over and beyond for me and my dogs....in fact, she is consulting on a case right now for my Teddy and is not charging me for the additional advice or dietary recommendations. She has done the same for other dogs here who were not at all doing well and she found solutions where other specialists could not. So she has earned my trust and I have the utmost respect for her. It will be a sad day for veterinary medicine and pet owners when she retires but she will definitely have left her mark on me and I could never thank her enough for her dedication and skills that saved the life of my dog Daisy.

That's basically what I do too. No one company is going to be perfect, no one food is going to be good for all dogs, and no one doctor is going to have the answers to everything. I would have no problems feeding most of the Purina One formulas or Purina Pro Plan formulas, depending on how my dog does on them of course. Blue Buffalo? To be honest, *I* personally wouldn't touch it, but that doesn't mean some dogs don't do great on it.

I saw a question in the thread and now I can't find it but it was about Purina and it's 'hypocrisy' because they use some of the ingredients that they are complaining BB uses, but I believe the reason is because Purina isn't trying to hide the fact that there's corn or wheat in their food. It would be VERY bad for a dog who has issues with any of those ingredients and an owner thinking they're not feeding them. So it's a pretty big deal if BB does end up testing for these ingredients, IMO.

Point (1) Well yes, to a certain degree, but animals of unknown provenance are more likely to be problematic. Take the recent example of horse meat cropping up in food for human consumption. Besides the issues of truth in labeling, the problem isn't with horse meat per se, it's with using euthanized animals that may have been shot up with pain killers or other medicines before they died. I would love to try horse meat, but I wouldn't want to eat Secretariat.

We're in agreement on point 2.

And basically we're in agreement on point 3 :).

And I would indeed trust Dr. Remillard when it comes to specialized diets. If you haven't read her article on home cooking that I linked to, inbox me with your email address and I'll send you the PDF--it's a great article! I was just puzzled by her apparent support for the use of unnamed meat sources. That may be a misunderstanding on my part, so I'll wait to see if she writes back.

Okay, now about GMO corn. Yes, you remembered right, I'm a corn geneticist by profession :). Non-GMO corn is a good food ingredient for animals that aren't allergic to it. GMO corn is okay to eat currently, but it could add some additional allergens since it contains new proteins that didn't previously exist in corn. Probably not a major issue, but it could be for a few animals. It's theoretically possible to engineer a corn that would be more toxic to consume, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to slip it past regulatory agencies. Still, it's a good idea for the public to be aware of what traits are being engineered into the corn that they are eating, in the unlikely event of problems down the line. As for me, I haven't gone out of my way to eat non-GMO corn yet, or to take it out of my pets' food.

Good point about the food allergies. It's always bad when foods test positive for ingredients that they are not supposed to contain. Purina hasn't proven anything (yet), so we'll see how this works out. Maybe ALL commercial dog foods should be tested for truth in labeling.

Oh never mind.......

Oh geez. I just looked and now she's gone.

Very strange.

OMG that video was annoying, so boring, and what the hell with all the red. Can't show his face huh?

It is really bad, isn't it? But that pitch at the end fried me.

There is not degree to be earned anywhere in dog nutrition. Vet's can study animal nutrition outside their regular studies but are not given more than one semester in ANIMAL nutrition in veterinary college.

We have many pet food companies that hire veterinarians to work for them. Anyone at any level who is paid by a company is going to represent the company's best interest first. The kind of thing "the dentist" points out about pet foods are things that are common knowledge. The ingredients and the kind of side effects certain ingredients have been found to cause are easy enough to find. The fact that it is a dentist that puts the information together for people to read for themselves means nothing. They are simply facts that anyone can make their own decisions about.

I would guess that few of us here went to school and for any length of time to lean how to cook for ourselves and our families although I'm sure many of of us have read up on human nutrition at one time or another. Are humans less complicated to feed than dogs?

If anyone is interested in learning more about the pet food industry from some people who have invested a lot of time and money investigating the industry and how it works with the FDA here is a link to a good website:
Purina Sues Blue Buffalo | Truth about Pet Food

Veterinary nutritionists possess not only veterinary training but they have advanced training in nutrition. They often have doctorates in animal science and nutrition. So there is a degree in dog nutrition, it's called animal nutrition and it's a doctorate. I'm sure there are masters' and bachelors level programs as well.

As for most people knowing about nutrition, that's sadly just not true as I look around and see sick and supersize.... people who struggle to be healthy and lose weight and they struggle because they just don't know how to eat. They do what they have been told by sophisticated marketing campaigns.

Feeding dogs is easy - they are opportunistic scavengers that will eat just about anything. There are some people who feed their dogs out of a garbage can and they do ok! I prefer to reach out to experts, and I'm humble enough to know when someone knows more than I do. I don't feel stupid for reaching out for help and those who mock the use of specialists just make themselves look like fools. They just don't know what they don't know.

As for the dog food advisor, well, he isn't for me.

Might wanna check this out and read the first q and a Frequently Asked Questions American College of Veterinary Nutrition

General vets are just that...general vets. They don't profess to be specialists in nutrition. That does not mean they have zero knowledge about nutrition. For specialized nutrition advice, I use veterinary nutritionists who DO have advanced knowledge and do have degrees in animal nutrition.

As to the DFA, I will take my vet's advice on nutrition any day over his. If a case is complicated, she is the first one to send me to a specialist. DFA is not for me either. His qualifications, in my opinion, are less than a general vet. Just my opinion.

Lookey Lookey.....
 

Here is the complaint that Purina filed against Blue. I'm only about 2/3 of the way through it, but had to stop to make myself some snacks and feed PURINA to my dogs. Who knew that Hill's also had issues with Blue.... Very interesting read.... What do you all think??

http://consumermediallc.files.wordpr...ue-buffalo.pdf

This all reminds me of this SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkbiJYU4CNI

hahaha!

I've never liked BB and honestly this all just confirms my original thoughts.

I just hope it doesn't turn really nasty because I could see BB trying to bring Purina down too... but I think this could overall be a really good step for the pet food industry. So many of them rely on marketing teams to sell a product. Consumers are slowly and surely becoming more aware in general so we'll see.