Over 99% of Vaccine Reactions go Unreported

[jp4m2]

Originally Posted by Britster

I am kind of confused. Cathy, you have agreed with me in the past regarding vaccines.

I'm not really sure why this post was so "bad". Every one posts informative links all the time. The point of forums is to post and discuss things, whether right vs. wrong, opinion vs. fact.

And yes, over-vaccination IS an issue. Is under-vaccination as well? Of course. But I don't think anyone, in this thread anyway, is saying NO vaccines at all? It speaks volumes to me that some AAHA hospitals are already switching to every 5 years (and I know it'll be a sloooww process). The decision was based on the 2011 AAHA Guidelines which state that DHP should be given no more than every 3 years and that it is effective for greater than 5 years (http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...Guidelines.pdf). From what I recall, the 3 year was basically a "compromise". A jump from annually to every 5-7 years would have been huge for most vets.

But, to me, it just proves that all along people WERE being scammed (but more than likely not on purpose). At one point in time, yearly vaccines WERE given and recommended by most vets. This was the 'standard of care' and many folks STILL believe this to be the case. I believe it probably started in the best interest of our pets but ended with annual income in mind (or just ignorance/lack of current education). Then suddenly every 3 years is okay. Now it's 5. Or 5-7 really according to studies. More than likely the lifetime of the dog. This is not new age internet hogwash, but real studies have been done, and the general population still believes that dogs need yearly vaccines, at least the ones I encounter. These are good dog owners who feel they are doing right by their dog by giving them yearly shots when it's simply... bogus.

The thing is, IMO, a lot of vets don't want to give up that money they get from yearly vaccines. Let's face it - most dog owners wouldn't want to fork up the dough to get titers and a majority of people ONLY take their dogs to the vet when they need vaccines (so it IS a way to get pets into the vet, which is a good thing). It is a fairly large money maker for them no matter how you put it. And no, I am not one who thinks all vets are out to get us, or money grubbing, or bad people who want our pets to suffer so they can reap the benefits. Quite the contrary. Now, an owner like me, I'll be at the vet at least once a year anyway for annual check-ups, bloodwork, etc so they'll still get their money from me. But an average owner... does not do this. So I guess in some way I can understand this viewpoint.


I more than likely won't do titers anyway, because I don't see the point.


Have you had your measles, mumps, and polio titer checked this year? It's kind of the same concept IMO. Humans get vaccines as kids. We don't continue to check the levels every year (unless a job requires it, for example, or you are ill, etc). Some get the flu shot every year. But other than that...?? What would the point be? Would getting the chicken pox shot every 3-5 years decrease your chances of getting chicken pox any more than if you got it only once as a baby?

Vaccines ARE important. Very important. Year after year, or even every 3 years? Meh... I have no desire.

Thank you......I agree with everything you stated.

[ladyjane]

Brit I missed your last line. All I can say is that I hope it works for you and Jackson. I will do every three years on my pups until it is proven they have lifelong immunity. I am not about to compare human vaccines with canine vaccines and don't follow that logic. The flu vaccine is yearly because that is as long as they believe it works. When there is scientific proof that DHPP is lifelong for canines, THEN I will stop doing every three years.

As I said in a previous post, I don't believe in playing Russian Roulette with my pups' lives.

My pups live long lives ... I am not losing them at young ages and they are all vaccinated every three years....even those with congenital conditions.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Brit I missed your last line. All I can say is that I hope it works for you and Jackson. I will do every three years on my pups until it is proven they have lifelong immunity. I am not about to compare human vaccines with canine vaccines and don't follow that logic. The flu vaccine is yearly because that is as long as they believe it works. When there is scientific proof that DHPP is lifelong for canines, THEN I will stop doing every three years.

As I said in a previous post, I don't believe in playing Russian Roulette with my pups' lives.

My pups live long lives ... I am not losing them at young ages and they are all vaccinated every three years....even those with congenital conditions.

This is my feeling too. I have two dogs nearing 14. I think they have a few years left in them too! No one here is dropping dead early either or living anything but a happy dog life. They are vaccinated and have had vaccines their entire lives.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Britster

I am kind of confused. Cathy, you have agreed with me in the past regarding vaccines.

I'm not really sure why this post was so "bad". Every one posts informative links all the time. The point of forums is to post and discuss things, whether right vs. wrong, opinion vs. fact.

And yes, over-vaccination IS an issue. Is under-vaccination as well? Of course. But I don't think anyone, in this thread anyway, is saying NO vaccines at all? It speaks volumes to me that some AAHA hospitals are already switching to every 5 years (and I know it'll be a sloooww process). The decision was based on the 2011 AAHA Guidelines which state that DHP should be given no more than every 3 years and that it is effective for greater than 5 years (http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...Guidelines.pdf). From what I recall, the 3 year was basically a "compromise". A jump from annually to every 5-7 years would have been huge for most vets.

But, to me, it just proves that all along people WERE being scammed (but more than likely not on purpose). At one point in time, yearly vaccines WERE given and recommended by most vets. This was the 'standard of care' and many folks STILL believe this to be the case. I believe it probably started in the best interest of our pets but ended with annual income in mind (or just ignorance/lack of current education). Then suddenly every 3 years is okay. Now it's 5. Or 5-7 really according to studies. More than likely the lifetime of the dog. This is not new age internet hogwash, but real studies have been done, and the general population still believes that dogs need yearly vaccines, at least the ones I encounter. These are good dog owners who feel they are doing right by their dog by giving them yearly shots when it's simply... bogus.

The thing is, IMO, a lot of vets don't want to give up that money they get from yearly vaccines. Let's face it - most dog owners wouldn't want to fork up the dough to get titers and a majority of people ONLY take their dogs to the vet when they need vaccines (so it IS a way to get pets into the vet, which is a good thing). It is a fairly large money maker for them no matter how you put it. And no, I am not one who thinks all vets are out to get us, or money grubbing, or bad people who want our pets to suffer so they can reap the benefits. Quite the contrary. Now, an owner like me, I'll be at the vet at least once a year anyway for annual check-ups, bloodwork, etc so they'll still get their money from me. But an average owner... does not do this. So I guess in some way I can understand this viewpoint.


I more than likely won't do titers anyway, because I don't see the point.


Have you had your measles, mumps, and polio titer checked this year? It's kind of the same concept IMO. Humans get vaccines as kids. We don't continue to check the levels every year (unless a job requires it, for example, or you are ill, etc). Some get the flu shot every year. But other than that...?? What would the point be? Would getting the chicken pox shot every 3-5 years decrease your chances of getting chicken pox any more than if you got it only once as a baby?

Vaccines ARE important. Very important. Year after year, or even every 3 years? Meh... I have no desire.

Brit, when I've traveled to certain places I've been given boosters for polio, and other things most here don't need as adults.

[rubymoon2072]

thank you for confirming I am not insane. My new vets office was going on and on about how there rarely reactions. This is why I insist on doing one shot at a time and waiting in between. I am so glad they are going to change the protocol.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by rubymoon2072

thank you for confirming I am not insane. My new vets office was going on and on about how there rarely reactions. This is why I insist on doing one shot at a time and waiting in between. I am so glad they are going to change the protocol.

What I am quite sure they mean is that an anaphylactic reaction is rare. Individual vets do not see them often. I don't think they are trying to mislead you. Many people don't even let a vet know when there is discomfort at the site or mild symptoms of fever....there are many of them. NOT many serious reactions!!! I always report all reactions to my vet so that it can be noted in the pup's record. There are a couple of older ones that she recommended we not vaccinate again with DHPP because they had 24 hours of fever and screaming when touched. Strange reaction...kind of scary to me but still not anaplylactic in nature.

It is good that you ask for the vaccines to be separated. My vet does rabies first and then two weeks later the DHPP. Office visit is charged only the first time.

Not sure what you meant by the comment that I bolded....if you meant your vet or "they" as the AVMA or AAHA. This protocol has been in effect since 2011.....if your vet is not doing it, I would take him/her a copy of the AAHA guidelines and ask why.

[107barney]

I wait 4 weeks in between vaccines now.

[rubymoon2072]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

What I am quite sure they mean is that an anaphylactic reaction is rare. Individual vets do not see them often. I don't think they are trying to mislead you. Many people don't even let a vet know when there is discomfort at the site or mild symptoms of fever....there are many of them. NOT many serious reactions!!! I always report all reactions to my vet so that it can be noted in the pup's record. There are a couple of older ones that she recommended we not vaccinate again with DHPP because they had 24 hours of fever and screaming when touched. Strange reaction...kind of scary to me but still not anaplylactic in nature.

It is good that you ask for the vaccines to be separated. My vet does rabies first and then two weeks later the DHPP. Office visit is charged only the first time.

Not sure what you meant by the comment that I bolded....if you meant your vet or "they" as the AVMA or AAHA. This protocol has been in effect since 2011.....if your vet is not doing it, I would take him/her a copy of the AAHA guidelines and ask why.

my vet I meant...my new one! if people don't call with the symptoms then the vet really has no clue of the reactions. They are new to me and new the area (previously a vet at another practice and opened her own) so I asked to make sure they do report any issues. They stated they rarely hear of any reactions and I wonder if it is because it is not reported. and I am sure but I just don't like the defensiveness when I pose the question. and the tech did get a lil defensive with me. Everyone has an opinion and how they see there pups react. I know also I am a bit anal about what is done and so maybe she was just reacting to my flood of questions and worries. haha. I am a bit uptight when it comes to their well being.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by rubymoon2072

my vet I meant...my new one! if people don't call with the symptoms then the vet really has no clue of the reactions. They are new to me and new the area (previously a vet at another practice and opened her own) so I asked to make sure they do report any issues. They stated they rarely hear of any reactions and I wonder if it is because it is not reported. and I am sure but I just don't like the defensiveness when I pose the question. and the tech did get a lil defensive with me. Everyone has an opinion and how they see there pups react. I know also I am a bit anal about what is done and so maybe she was just reacting to my flood of questions and worries. haha. I am a bit uptight when it comes to their well being.

I have a tip. Don't ask the techs - speak to the vet directly.

[rubymoon2072]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I have a tip. Don't ask the techs - speak to the vet directly.

hehe yeah. she was new to me so we were sorta just chatting and I brought up my fear of vacc reactions.

but yes when I spoke to the vet I felt better. She was funny saying Keylo is going to be mad at me and she's so beautiful I don't want to make her cry. Thankfully she did the shot so well that Keylo didn't even react nor did she have any issues with soreness that I noted after.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Brit I missed your last line. All I can say is that I hope it works for you and Jackson. I will do every three years on my pups until it is proven they have lifelong immunity. I am not about to compare human vaccines with canine vaccines and don't follow that logic. The flu vaccine is yearly because that is as long as they believe it works. When there is scientific proof that DHPP is lifelong for canines, THEN I will stop doing every three years.

As I said in a previous post, I don't believe in playing Russian Roulette with my pups' lives.

My pups live long lives ... I am not losing them at young ages and they are all vaccinated every three years....even those with congenital conditions.

But it was one year. Now it's 3 years. A few hospitals are moving to every 5 years. Soon enough it will be 7. If that is not enough proof then I am not sure what is. What makes 3 years the magical number over 5? AAHA themselves has acknowledged that in the case of the non-rabies core vaccines, immunity lasts at least >5 years for distemper and parvo, and at least >7 years for adenovirus. AAHA, since 2011, has recommended at 3-year or greater intervals. So I am not sure why one must be stuck on the 3 year interval. Obviously they feel safe enough stating that some of these vaccines are good for 7++ years. Regardless if one feels vaccines every 3 years are not going to 'hurt' the dog, why not change to every 5 years? What is the difference? Do you truly feel your dog is more protected getting them every 3 years vs. every 5?

I am hardly playing Russian Roulette with my dogs life.

[Britster]

Are these studies supposed to just be ignored?

Age and long-term protective immunity in dogs ... [J Comp Pathol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

The present study examines the DOI for core viral vaccines in dogs that had not been revaccinated for as long as 9 years. These animals had serum antibody to canine distemper virus (CDV), canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) and canine adenovirus type-1 (CAV-1) at levels considered protective and when challenged with these viruses, the dogs resisted infection and/or disease. Thus, even a single dose of modified live virus (MLV) canine core vaccines (against CDV, cav-2 and cpv-2) or MLV feline core vaccines (against feline parvovirus [FPV], feline calicivirus [FCV] and feline herpesvirus [FHV]), when administered at 16 weeks or older, could provide long-term immunity in a very high percentage of animals, while also increasing herd immunity.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Britster

But it was one year. Now it's 3 years. A few hospitals are moving to every 5 years. Soon enough it will be 7. If that is not enough proof then I am not sure what is. What makes 3 years the magical number over 5? AAHA themselves has acknowledged that in the case of the non-rabies core vaccines, immunity lasts at least >5 years for distemper and parvo, and at least >7 years for adenovirus. AAHA, since 2011, has recommended at 3-year or greater intervals. So I am not sure why one must be stuck on the 3 year interval. Obviously they feel safe enough stating that some of these vaccines are good for 7++ years. Regardless if one feels vaccines every 3 years are not going to 'hurt' the dog, why not change to every 5 years? What is the difference? Do you truly feel your dog is more protected getting them every 3 years vs. every 5?

I am hardly playing Russian Roulette with my dogs life.

Sorry, Brit....I did not mean to imply that you were. I am quite certain that Jackson is well cared for and I would never mean such a thing.

It was a general statement directed at people who just make decisions blindly. There are MANY people who do not vaccinate their pups...far more than you can imagine...I see it all of the time when I process adoption applications. AND many who don't do Heartworm prevention...and then they put their pups through heartworm treatment IF they can afford it. If not, the pups suffer horrible deaths...OR get dumped onto rescues to do it. The people who read and educate themselves come far and few between...most people look for excuses not to give adequate protection to their pups. For me, I am happy following the guidelines with my young, healthy pups. Do I think it gives MORE protection? No, I just know that they are for sure receiving adequate protection. I used to give yearly and never had an issue so I really don't make myself crazy over giving them every three years. I am happy to wait for the change to come.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Britster

Are these studies supposed to just be ignored?

Age and long-term protective immunity in dogs ... [J Comp Pathol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

I don't believe that any studies are being ignored. I did not read that entire study but did note the word "could" and that concerns me. I like "would" much better.

[Teegy]

Originally Posted by Britster

But it was one year. Now it's 3 years. A few hospitals are moving to every 5 years. Soon enough it will be 7. If that is not enough proof then I am not sure what is. What makes 3 years the magical number over 5? AAHA themselves has acknowledged that in the case of the non-rabies core vaccines, immunity lasts at least >5 years for distemper and parvo, and at least >7 years for adenovirus. AAHA, since 2011, has recommended at 3-year or greater intervals. So I am not sure why one must be stuck on the 3 year interval. Obviously they feel safe enough stating that some of these vaccines are good for 7++ years. Regardless if one feels vaccines every 3 years are not going to 'hurt' the dog, why not change to every 5 years? What is the difference? Do you truly feel your dog is more protected getting them every 3 years vs. every 5?

I am hardly playing Russian Roulette with my dogs life.

I spoke with my two out of the three vets I've had regarding rabies and they have both told me that there is scientific evidence out there that has been submitted showing the rabies vaccine is still prevelant at 7 years and they are trying to get the government to change the law from 3 to 7.