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tokipoki 01-16-2014 12:49 PM

Primal feeding amount
 
This is kinda related but I'm wondering how much Primal you feed at a meal or per day. I just got a bag of the frozen chicken nuggets for Teddy (9.5 pounds) and they recommend 4 nuggets a day which seems like such a small amount calorie-wise compared to what other foods recommend. I'm just not sure why Primal has such low calorie recommendations for maintenance compared to other foods (Primal recommends 190 cal/day and DFA's calculator recommends 330 cal/day...!)...maybe because it's more easily digestible and the pups can get more nutrition out of it?? I guess I can always increase if he's not maintaining his weight but I was just curious if you find that you need to feed more than what is listed.

Island Girl 01-16-2014 05:26 PM

Jenny, Thanks so much for sharing this information! Good stuff to know!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4376863)
This is kinda related but I'm wondering how much Primal you feed at a meal or per day. I just got a bag of the frozen chicken nuggets for Teddy (9.5 pounds) and they recommend 4 nuggets a day which seems like such a small amount calorie-wise compared to what other foods recommend. I'm just not sure why Primal has such low calorie recommendations for maintenance compared to other foods (Primal recommends 190 cal/day and DFA's calculator recommends 330 cal/day...!)...maybe because it's more easily digestible and the pups can get more nutrition out of it?? I guess I can always increase if he's not maintaining his weight but I was just curious if you find that you need to feed more than what is listed.

According to Primal's website, Sachi is supposed to get 1.8 nuggets a day. I was not about to measure .9 of a nugget a meal (we feed her 2X a day) lol. So we just give her 1 nugget per meal. It does seem like a small amount, especially when she gobbles it up, but they do absorb more of the nutrients from the food. As far as I know, you can adjust the amount depending how active your pup is. The more active, the more food. For us, the 2 nuggets is about right, she has maintained the same weight for several months now. Considering Sachi is 4.4 and Teddy is 9.5, 4 nuggets for you seems ok but he may need more if he is burning alot of energy.

Verbena 01-16-2014 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4375778)
I always thought dogs that ate raw had "nicer" teeth because they were getting whole bones to chew on which scraped stuff like plaque off their teeth...I don't know how much research is behind that though. So I wouldn't think that the ground bones would have the same effect necessarily. Maybe since this food does not have a very high amount of carbohydrates and is higher in protein, it helps prevent build up and tooth decay from occurring.

And although the protein listed is higher on the packaging, it will "drop" when you rehydrate it. But it is still a higher amount of protein than is found in kibbles when you convert it to a dry matter basis, like Jenny said.

I am more concerned about the protein. Biewers should have 28% or less of protein. They prefer less. So I am having a hard time finding grain free with a lower protein.

tokipoki 01-16-2014 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbena (Post 4377056)
I am more concerned about the protein. Biewers should have 28% or less of protein. They prefer less. So I am having a hard time finding grain free with a lower protein.

Sorry if you've already answered in another post but what do you currently feed? When I feed Toki kibble, I prefer to use lower protein formulas like Natural Balance's LID ones and they have several grain-free varieties (I really don't feed her too much kibble though and just have a few sample packs or take some from my parents). I know that Honest Kitchen also has some grain-free dehydrated recipes that are lower in protein (the Force formula is one of the lower protein ones) than other raw/less processed foods.

tokipoki 01-16-2014 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Girl (Post 4377015)
Jenny, Thanks so much for sharing this information! Good stuff to know!



According to Primal's website, Sachi is supposed to get 1.8 nuggets a day. I was not about to measure .9 of a nugget a meal (we feed her 2X a day) lol. So we just give her 1 nugget per meal. It does seem like a small amount, especially when she gobbles it up, but they do absorb more of the nutrients from the food. As far as I know, you can adjust the amount depending how active your pup is. The more active, the more food. For us, the 2 nuggets is about right, she has maintained the same weight for several months now. Considering Sachi is 4.4 and Teddy is 9.5, 4 nuggets for you seems ok but he may need more if he is burning alot of energy.

Yes, who wants to wrap up 1/10 of a nugget? LOL Did you get Primal's email with the coupons for the freeze-dried formulas yesterday? Of course they sent the email right after I came back home from the store with 2 bags already ha! I'll definitely go back to use the coupons if he does well on the chicken kind I got. We've used the other kinds as a topper/mix-in in the past but not as his entire diet. Some of the exotic/novel proteins look interesting but I'm not sure that we're feeling that adventurous right now :)

Verbena 01-16-2014 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4377065)
Sorry if you've already answered in another post but what do you currently feed? When I feed Toki kibble, I prefer to use lower protein formulas like Natural Balance's LID ones and they have several grain-free varieties (I really don't feed her too much kibble though and just have a few sample packs or take some from my parents). I know that Honest Kitchen also has some grain-free dehydrated recipes that are lower in protein (the Force formula is one of the lower protein ones) than other raw/less processed foods.

I just changed to Fromm Salmon Tunalini from TotW Sierra. He is a picky little guy. He was not to happy with HK.

Teresiana 01-17-2014 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4376863)
This is kinda related but I'm wondering how much Primal you feed at a meal or per day. I just got a bag of the frozen chicken nuggets for Teddy (9.5 pounds) and they recommend 4 nuggets a day which seems like such a small amount calorie-wise compared to what other foods recommend. I'm just not sure why Primal has such low calorie recommendations for maintenance compared to other foods (Primal recommends 190 cal/day and DFA's calculator recommends 330 cal/day...!)...maybe because it's more easily digestible and the pups can get more nutrition out of it?? I guess I can always increase if he's not maintaining his weight but I was just curious if you find that you need to feed more than what is listed.

I noticed that about Primal. Their portions do seem REALLY small. I follow the DFA daily calories, not Primal's guide. According to Primal, 4-pound Prima should consume only 80 calories a day!! Poor Prima would shrivel up if I fed her that amount. The frozen duck is 48 calories per nugget. So instead of the 1.7 nuggets/80 calories per day recommended by Primal, I feed her 3 nuggets (144 calories). Plus, she gets a teaspoon of ricotta or goats milk everyday for a snack...plus treats during nightly training time. All that = around 172 daily calories. Not 80!! She does well with that amount & I wouldn't feed her less than that.

tokipoki 01-17-2014 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teresiana (Post 4377213)
I noticed that about Primal. Their portions do seem REALLY small. I follow the DFA daily calories, not Primal's guide. According to Primal, 4-pound Prima should consume only 80 calories a day!! Poor Prima would shrivel up if I fed her that amount. The frozen duck is 48 calories per nugget. So instead of the 1.7 nuggets/80 calories per day recommended by Primal, I feed her 3 nuggets (144 calories). Plus, she gets a teaspoon of ricotta or goats milk everyday for a snack...plus treats during nightly training time. All that = around 172 daily calories. Not 80!! She does well with that amount & I wouldn't feed her less than that.

That's good to hear! I was going to say, even Toki gets over 200 calories so I figured that since Teddy is more muscular and almost a couple pounds bigger that he'd need more than what they were recommending. Yesterday, Teddy was kinda looking at me like "That's it??!?!" after he ate LOL. I'll bump him up a nugget or maybe give him something else to nibble on too.

mimimomo 01-17-2014 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4377215)
That's good to hear! I was going to say, even Toki gets over 200 calories so I figured that since Teddy is more muscular and almost a couple pounds bigger that he'd need more than what they were recommending. Yesterday, Teddy was kinda looking at me like "That's it??!?!" after he ate LOL. I'll bump him up a nugget or maybe give him something else to nibble on too.

Princess & Momo, both 5#'s get 1 nugget per meal. I get the 'dat's it?!' look too! I feed them 3 small meals bc they seem so hungry all the time. The other 2 meals are canned food, kibble, ziwipeak or whatever fresh protein I happen to have.
I'm not good w/#'s, so I don't measure out their ea/individual calories, I should tho. I even have a food scale & bunch of measuring cups. I just guesstimate. I weigh them once a month, if they're gaining, I reduce the food a little & vise versa. I wanted to know your question, so I googled & found this...not sure if it answers your question but I still need to read it a few x's to 'get it'!:

Dog Blog: Feeding for health and longevity: Raw vs. kibble vs. calories


Calculating the ideal daily energy requirement for a dog is a little complicated, but not difficult. First, we need to know the dog’s ‘ideal’ weight. The standard guideline is to be able to easily feel the ribs beneath the coat, see a definite waist when viewed from above, and an abdominal tuck when viewed from the side. We also need to know the Metabolic Energy value (kcal/kg) of the food that we feed. This information is usually easy to find on the packet label of commercially produced, complete kibbles and some canned and pouched foods. The final piece of information that we need to calculate daily energy requirement is the dog’s age, sexual status and activity level. Tilly’s ‘ideal’ weight by eye and feel is around 14 kg. She is between 5 and 7 years old, spayed, and typically active.

According to the dog food calculator (picture left), this gives me two category choices – ‘typical’ and ‘senior, neutered, inactive’. She is neutered, but she is neither senior nor inactive, so ‘typical’ more accurately describes her.

I feed her Chappie original canned, which has a Metabolic Energy value of 850 kcal/kg. The resulting calculation is that she requires 796 calories per day and I should be feeding her 940 grams of Chappie per day, however, to follow the 25% food restriction diet to increase lifespan, a further calculation is needed.


To calculate 25% of 796, we need to divide 796 by 100 (7.96) and then multiply this by 25 (199). This gives a reduced daily calorie intake of 597 (796 – 199).

We know that 940 grams contains 796 calories, so to reduce this by 25% we divide 940 grams by 100, which gives 9.4 grams (1% of 940 grams), and then multiply 9.4 grams by 25 to give 235 grams. 940 grams minus 235 grams is 705 grams. So actually, Tilly requires 705 grams of Chappie per day.

Beau’s ‘ideal’ weight by eye and feel is 32 kg. He’s 3 years old, neutered, and very lazy, so even though he’s a young dog, I place him in the ‘senior, neutered, inactive’ category. I feed him Acana Grasslands kibble, which has a Metabolic Energy value of 3750 kcal/kg. According to the dog food calculator, this works out at 1211 calories and 320 grams of Acana Grasslands per day. To feed for increased lifespan, this is reduced to 908 calories and 240 grams of Acana Grasslands per day. If I went by Acana’s daily recommendation for an inactive, 32 kg dog, I would be feeding him 320 grams per day – 80 grams more than is needed. Beau’s ‘feeding for increased lifespan’ weight is around 31 kg. Feeding for increased lifespan drops the ‘ideal’ weight by 1 kilo – that’s a whole kilo of excess fat! Visually, the difference in my dogs between ‘ideal’ and ‘increased lifespan’ weights is that the ribcage is more defined, with the outline of the last three ribs visible beneath the coat (picture right).

It is much, much harder to calculate how much raw food to feed because meats, vegetables, plants, etc, differ greatly in their individual Metabolic Energy values.The general guide to feeding raw food is around 2% of the dog’s ideal body weight per day. For Tilly this works out at 300 grams per day in which to pack 796 calories (her ‘ideal’ weight calorie count). To feed for increased lifespan, we need to reduce the calories to 597, but to feed for variety, the quantity of food fed per day will fluctuate greatly in order to provide the correct calorie count per meal. For example, there are around 85 calories in 100 g of raw tripe, which means that an all tripe day for Tilly weighs in at 705 g, but if fed according to the 2% rule would provide her with a meagre 238 calories. Raw lamb ribs are around 284 kcal per 100g, so an all lamb rib day for Tilly weighs in at 210 g, but feeding lamb ribs according to the 2% rule would provide her with 796 calories (and a huge quantity of fat). Because the Metabolic Energy values of different foods is so inconsistent, realistically, the best way to feed a raw food or home-cooked diet is by calorie content, not by weight, whilst trying to keep the overall quantity of the meal at around 2% of the dog’s bodyweight. That way, meals that combine meat, bone, offal, fish, egg, dairy and veg, fruit, grain, cereal, herbs based on the mesocarnivore 50-70:30-50 animal:plant ratio of the human-food-eating domestic dog could be made without overloading or starving the body with such wildly fluctuating daily calorie intakes and meal weights, although the ratios per meal would need to differ from dog to dog to accommodate individual calorie needs.


Hey IDK how that pink tongue face got in there...

tokipoki 01-17-2014 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimimomo (Post 4377333)
Princess & Momo, both 5#'s get 1 nugget per meal. I get the 'dat's it?!' look too! I feed them 3 small meals bc they seem so hungry all the time. The other 2 meals are canned food, kibble, ziwipeak or whatever fresh protein I happen to have.
I'm not good w/#'s, so I don't measure out their ea/individual calories, I should tho. I even have a food scale & bunch of measuring cups. I just guesstimate. I weigh them once a month, if they're gaining, I reduce the food a little & vise versa. I wanted to know your question, so I googled & found this...not sure if it answers your question but I still need to read it a few x's to 'get it'!:

I'm such a freak with my kitchen scale lol I started weighing out Toki's stuff when I switched her to canned. It's hard for me to eyeball 1/2 of 3/4 of a can and just easier to weigh (I wish I was that particular with my serving sizes!).

And I might have to incorporate something else into Teddy's diet besides just the Primal...something with more fiber...not to get needlessly elaborate but his stool this morning was oddly long and skinny which was unusual! I'm pretty sure this is related to the fiber content and the smaller amount of Primal I fed. I wanted to try putting him on a low-carb, grain-free diet to see if it would help his skin but I may still have to give him a little kibble. I know stools are smaller on raw food but I worry about anal glands not being emptied and creating a different issue...we'll see. I always find something to worry about haha!

Teresiana 01-17-2014 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4377347)
I'm such a freak with my kitchen scale lol I started weighing out Toki's stuff when I switched her to canned. It's hard for me to eyeball 1/2 of 3/4 of a can and just easier to weigh (I wish I was that particular with my serving sizes!).

Lol. I do the same thing!! I weigh all of their food to the ounce or gram. And you're right about the canned food. It is hard to judge. I feel like a nut reading the labels, dividing up the total calories in the can by ounce & weighing the portions...:p But it's habit from feeding a PMR diet & I suppose I'll always do it that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4377347)
And I might have to incorporate something else into Teddy's diet besides just the Primal...something with more fiber...not to get needlessly elaborate but his stool this morning was oddly long and skinny which was unusual! I'm pretty sure this is related to the fiber content and the smaller amount of Primal I fed. I wanted to try putting him on a low-carb, grain-free diet to see if it would help his skin but I may still have to give him a little kibble. I know stools are smaller on raw food but I worry about anal glands not being emptied and creating a different issue...we'll see. I always find something to worry about haha!

If Teddy's stools are firm, I wouldn't worry too much about the shape of them. All of mine have long skinny poo. As in pencil skinny. That's just the way their bodies digest raw food. So much more is absorbed. I leave them a little kibble out during the day & I can always tell who nibbled on the kibble by the roundness of their poo.

tokipoki 01-17-2014 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teresiana (Post 4377356)
Lol. I do the same thing!! I weigh all of their food to the ounce or gram. And you're right about the canned food. It is hard to judge. I feel like a nut reading the labels, dividing up the total calories in the can by ounce & weighing the portions...:p But it's habit from feeding a PMR diet & I suppose I'll always do it that way.


If Teddy's stools are firm, I wouldn't worry too much about the shape of them. All of mine have long skinny poo. As in pencil skinny. That's just the way their bodies digest raw food. So much more is absorbed. I leave them a little kibble out during the day & I can always tell who nibbled on the kibble by the roundness of their poo.

Oh man, we know how to have a good time with all this poo talk ;) And yes, Teddy's was like pencil skinny but also firm so I guess that's good as long as he's not stinking or scooting!

mimimomo 01-17-2014 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4377347)
I'm such a freak with my kitchen scale lol I started weighing out Toki's stuff when I switched her to canned. It's hard for me to eyeball 1/2 of 3/4 of a can and just easier to weigh (I wish I was that particular with my serving sizes!).

And I might have to incorporate something else into Teddy's diet besides just the Primal...something with more fiber...not to get needlessly elaborate but his stool this morning was oddly long and skinny which was unusual! I'm pretty sure this is related to the fiber content and the smaller amount of Primal I fed. I wanted to try putting him on a low-carb, grain-free diet to see if it would help his skin but I may still have to give him a little kibble. I know stools are smaller on raw food but I worry about anal glands not being emptied and creating a different issue...we'll see. I always find something to worry about haha!

For us, 1 tablespoon of canned food w/1 tblspn of moistened kibble works great (total of 2 tablespoons per meal). That's my measuring system haha! Since Turbo is 6#'s, I give him a little more & his weight always stays steady, maybe fluctuate 2-3 ounces. Mimi is 7#'s & I don't give her more bc she's older & her metabolism slowed down. Plus she just lounges all day until we go out, then she's a totally different dog loll.

I used to have to empty Mimi's anal glands when they were eating chicken. Once I found out Turbo can't have chicken, I stopped giving all of them chicken & her AG don't fill up! I haven't had to squeeze them for the last couple of months & no sign of it filling up. So I think it also has to do w/food sensitivity. If your dog's AG fill up fast, I would change the protein.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teresiana (Post 4377356)
Lol. I do the same thing!! I weigh all of their food to the ounce or gram. And you're right about the canned food. It is hard to judge. I feel like a nut reading the labels, dividing up the total calories in the can by ounce & weighing the portions...:p But it's habit from feeding a PMR diet & I suppose I'll always do it that way.


If Teddy's stools are firm, I wouldn't worry too much about the shape of them. All of mine have long skinny poo. As in pencil skinny. That's just the way their bodies digest raw food. So much more is absorbed. I leave them a little kibble out during the day & I can always tell who nibbled on the kibble by the roundness of their poo.

Momo's poopie sometimes does this & I always wondered why! Long & skinny, but it's always formed. Now his poopie is tiny & firm.:thumbup: Loll thumbs up to poopies!

Island Girl 01-20-2014 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimimomo (Post 4377364)
:thumbup: Loll thumbs up to poopies!

I have to laugh every time we discuss the shape, form, consistency, amount, frequency, etc., of poopies. I had a discussion about dog poop with my co-worker before switching to raw (she had feeding issues with her dog too). We were both cracking up when we realized we had a 20 minute talk about dog bowel movements.

So, I am happy to report Sachi has firm and small poopies since being on raw.
:lol tears

Island Girl 01-20-2014 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokipoki (Post 4377072)
Did you get Primal's email with the coupons for the freeze-dried formulas yesterday? Of course they sent the email right after I came back home from the store with 2 bags already ha! I'll definitely go back to use the coupons if he does well on the chicken kind I got. We've used the other kinds as a topper/mix-in in the past but not as his entire diet. Some of the exotic/novel proteins look interesting but I'm not sure that we're feeling that adventurous right now :)

Got them and I had just picked up a bag of Turkey too! I do want to try the freeze-dried, so I will pick some up when I have a chance!

We've tried the Rabbit and Venison. Sachi loves the Venison!

mimimomo 01-21-2014 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Girl (Post 4378732)
I have to laugh every time we discuss the shape, form, consistency, amount, frequency, etc., of poopies. I had a discussion about dog poop with my co-worker before switching to raw (she had feeding issues with her dog too). We were both cracking up when we realized we had a 20 minute talk about dog bowel movements.

So, I am happy to report Sachi has firm and small poopies since being on raw.
:lol tears

Haha that's funny. Somehow, talking about dog poop is not as gross as human poop.

I picked up a bag of frozen Rabbit the other day...realized it was for kitties! Will be going back to exchange it...wish they made it different colored bags like Stella & Chewy's or something.

Verbena 02-24-2014 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimimomo (Post 4379027)
Haha that's funny. Somehow, talking about dog poop is not as gross as human poop.

I picked up a bag of frozen Rabbit the other day...realized it was for kitties! Will be going back to exchange it...wish they made it different colored bags like Stella & Chewy's or something.

So I got to know which of the Primal did you try and they liked. I want to order a few bags and I figured see what others liked.

mimimomo 02-24-2014 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbena (Post 4396954)
So I got to know which of the Primal did you try and they liked. I want to order a few bags and I figured see what others liked.

They LOVE all the formulas & premade raw is all they're eating now, all doing super! They've tried the frozen variety of Duck, Lamb, Rabbit & Venison. Only Princess & Momo eats that for 1 meal & get freeze dried for the other. Mimi & Turbo get freeze dried for both meals bc they don't like frozen versions. They've tried Duck & Lamb in freeze dried Primal (we might try Beef next, except Princess it triggers her colitis). They also eat Stella & Chewy's freeze dried in Lamb, Pheasant & Rabbit. I rotate the proteins for every meal & add water to rehydrate the freeze dried. Every furry body is very happy & excited @ every meal time, I can't make it fast enough!

You can only order freeze dried versions online, frozen is not available for order...need to get the frozen from your local feed/pet boutique/store.

Island Girl 02-24-2014 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbena (Post 4396954)
So I got to know which of the Primal did you try and they liked. I want to order a few bags and I figured see what others liked.


Sachi has tried all the frozen raw formulas and has had no problems with them. Chicken, Beef, Duck, Lamb, Rabbit, Venison, Turkey & Sardine, and Pheasant. We currently have Venison, Turkey & Sardine, and Pheasant in our freezer and we rotate them. It's hard to say which one is her favorite as she usually eats very quickly no matter which protein it is.

If you are just starting out, Primal has a starter pack (frozen raw) that comes with 3 nuggets each of Chicken, Beef, Lamb and Duck. It's a good way to test the waters without having to invest in the full bags of food.

Verbena 02-25-2014 05:23 AM

I am going to start on the freeze dried. I am hoping this will make him want to eat more

mimimomo 02-26-2014 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Girl (Post 4397074)
Sachi has tried all the frozen raw formulas and has had no problems with them. Chicken, Beef, Duck, Lamb, Rabbit, Venison, Turkey & Sardine, and Pheasant. We currently have Venison, Turkey & Sardine, and Pheasant in our freezer and we rotate them. It's hard to say which one is her favorite as she usually eats very quickly no matter which protein it is.

If you are just starting out, Primal has a starter pack (frozen raw) that comes with 3 nuggets each of Chicken, Beef, Lamb and Duck. It's a good way to test the waters without having to invest in the full bags of food.

:thumbup: Awesome, didn't know they had a starter pack!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbena (Post 4397217)
I am going to start on the freeze dried. I am hoping this will make him want to eat more

Is this for Galen? I'm sure he'll LOVE it!


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