Coconut Oil

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Ill take the word of the board certified vet nutritionist as to what will trigger pancreatitis and what won't. Since pancreatitis treatment for a severe case can run upwards of $1,000 a day, I would rather avoid the expense along with my dog's suffering. My understanding is that the hormone CCK leads to pancreatic enzyme secretion, and that it is most responsive to dietary fat. Whether coconut oil down regulates CCK and thus pancreatic secretion is not something I know and I won't gamble with my own dog. Many people feed fish oils to their dogs with a history of pancreatitis too for the anti-inflammatory effects but in our case that tight rope isn't worth walking. I love my dog too much to see him suffer, but that's just me. I love coconut oil, it's one of the few fats I myself will eat, but it's not a great choice to add to a home cooked diet and therefore I only use it occasionally for my non pancreatic dogs.

Howdy! How about the Coco Therapy Chips? Would those be bad to give to Pnut, given that he has had Pancreatitis before? I give him like 3 chips once a week-

[Sharonmarlow]

I have been feeding my terriers CO for YEARS (ever since the article came out in Whole Dog Journal). I have never had a dog with Pancratitties but I have seen CO help dogs with bad breath and skin problems. I love the stuff also because unlike fish oil, it does not go rancid.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Ill take the word of the board certified vet nutritionist as to what will trigger pancreatitis and what won't. Since pancreatitis treatment for a severe case can run upwards of $1,000 a day, I would rather avoid the expense along with my dog's suffering. My understanding is that the hormone CCK leads to pancreatic enzyme secretion, and that it is most responsive to dietary fat. Whether coconut oil down regulates CCK and thus pancreatic secretion is not something I know and I won't gamble with my own dog. Many people feed fish oils to their dogs with a history of pancreatitis too for the anti-inflammatory effects but in our case that tight rope isn't worth walking. I love my dog too much to see him suffer, but that's just me. I love coconut oil, it's one of the few fats I myself will eat, but it's not a great choice to add to a home cooked diet and therefore I only use it occasionally for my non pancreatic dogs.

Well, since I do know exactly what triggered Peek's pancreatitis, and caught it in time, his treatment ran about $200. He did relapse after two weeks, caught early again, so his meds were extended a bit longer. I don't consider him a 'pancreatic' dog, since he's never had an episode since that time.

When I started him on Coconut oil, I introduced it very slowly into his diet, and I watched him like a hawk for any reactions. He never had a problem with it. To me, the benefits far outweigh the risks, so it was worth the gamble.

I don't like to watch mine suffer either, and I don't. I take them to the vet when they need to go. Probably not the best vets in the world, as family obligations keep me from hopping on a plane to go to the best. I was thinking I wish I could give mine the care you give yours, but then again mine are all fine and doing well. Bright eyes and happy.

They would probably be happier if I allowed them up on the furniture all the time, but I try to prevent them from jumping on and off and hurting themselves... again I love them too much to see them suffer. I've trained them enough now that they can't jump high enough to get on my bed by themselves, they've lost the ability by not using those muscles for that purpose, and they know I will help them up on and down off the bed and they will bark till I come for them. But that's just me.

[kjc]

Duplicate post sorry.

[107barney]

Kjc have you looked into stairs up to the bed? Mine have a set on two sides of the bed and are trained to use them. Luckily when accidents do happen, we have excellent and world recognized animal care right here so I don't have to jump on a plane or miss time from my family obligations or two jobs. But, I would if that's what it takes, but that's me. Anything for my darlings to keep their bright eyes and gentle souls as healthy and happy for as long as i'm blessed to be the one in charge of their well being. Good luck with the coconut oil, I'm still reluctant to use it.

[ladyjane]

There are so many different things that we assume are good for our pups; but sometimes they just are not. I don't know about coconut oil and pancreatitis, but I suspect Cathy is right. All I know is that IF I wanted to give something like that, I would ask the vet nutritionist I use. I am fortunate that, having used her for diets for a few of my pups now, I can write and ask her basic questions about treats and other things.

For example: I was giving my foster Gizmo bits of sweet potatoes...and Cathy mentioned to me that they are high in oxylates. OMG...that is the type of stones he had years ago...I would have had a fit if he got stones because of that!! I wrote to the nutritionist and she is going to go over his records since he was recently ill with pancreatitis and she will advise me on food and treats.

Everyone seems to assume that what looks good and is so called natural is good and is ok for any pup and that just is not the case. Each one is so different.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Ill take the word of the board certified vet nutritionist as to what will trigger pancreatitis and what won't. Since pancreatitis treatment for a severe case can run upwards of $1,000 a day, I would rather avoid the expense along with my dog's suffering. My understanding is that the hormone CCK leads to pancreatic enzyme secretion, and that it is most responsive to dietary fat. Whether coconut oil down regulates CCK and thus pancreatic secretion is not something I know and I won't gamble with my own dog. Many people feed fish oils to their dogs with a history of pancreatitis too for the anti-inflammatory effects but in our case that tight rope isn't worth walking. I love my dog too much to see him suffer, but that's just me. I love coconut oil, it's one of the few fats I myself will eat, but it's not a great choice to add to a home cooked diet and therefore I only use it occasionally for my non pancreatic dogs.

I have been sifting through studies trying to find the answer to this. Very interesting. I think it is still a ? for nutritionists. It seems for humans CCK is not released from MCTs. But in rats (I think it was), they are finding it is released through an afferent vagal neuron pathway. Have to read more to find info on dogs. and also, even if it is released, I don't know ifanymore would be released when ingesting mct than carbs. Anyway, coconut oil contains MCTs, but it is not just a MCT. It also contains LCTs.

Glad it works for all of you. I don't use it because my dogs have fat in their food and any miraculous benefits of it have not been proven. Actually, one of my pups eats a kibble with CO in it, but it is part of the overall food makeup and is not added on top of her kibble fat to get some kind of unknown positive result. I know people tend to randomly select the amount to give too. But like anything there has got to be a minimum effective dose (for whatever the effect is supposed to be). IMO, it is just another one of those things that is not necessary. Adequate studies have not been done on the cardiovascular risk of using this either.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Kjc have you looked into stairs up to the bed? Mine have a set on two sides of the bed and are trained to use them. Luckily when accidents do happen, we have excellent and world recognized animal care right here so I don't have to jump on a plane or miss time from my family obligations or two jobs. But, I would if that's what it takes, but that's me. Anything for my darlings to keep their bright eyes and gentle souls as healthy and happy for as long as i'm blessed to be the one in charge of their well being. Good luck with the coconut oil, I'm still reluctant to use it.

I have stairs but I removed them as when my dogs become excited, they tend to jump over the stairs to get down, which is worse than just jumping off the bed, lol. I did ask my vet before using CO on my dogs, and feel confident with my decision to include it in their diets.

Originally Posted by ladyjane

There are so many different things that we assume are good for our pups; but sometimes they just are not. I don't know about coconut oil and pancreatitis, but I suspect Cathy is right. All I know is that IF I wanted to give something like that, I would ask the vet nutritionist I use. I am fortunate that, having used her for diets for a few of my pups now, I can write and ask her basic questions about treats and other things.

For example: I was giving my foster Gizmo bits of sweet potatoes...and Cathy mentioned to me that they are high in oxylates. OMG...that is the type of stones he had years ago...I would have had a fit if he got stones because of that!! I wrote to the nutritionist and she is going to go over his records since he was recently ill with pancreatitis and she will advise me on food and treats.

Everyone seems to assume that what looks good and is so called natural is good and is ok for any pup and that just is not the case. Each one is so different.

I agree, CO may not be good for every dog. I did research and discuss it's use on my dogs with my vet prior to adding it to their diets.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I have been sifting through studies trying to find the answer to this. Very interesting. I think it is still a ? for nutritionists. It seems for humans CCK is not released from MCTs. But in rats (I think it was), they are finding it is released through an afferent vagal neuron pathway. Have to read more to find info on dogs. and also, even if it is released, I don't know ifanymore would be released when ingesting mct than carbs. Anyway, coconut oil contains MCTs, but it is not just a MCT. It also contains LCTs.

Glad it works for all of you. I don't use it because my dogs have fat in their food and any miraculous benefits of it have not been proven. Actually, one of my pups eats a kibble with CO in it, but it is part of the overall food makeup and is not added on top of her kibble fat to get some kind of unknown positive result. I know people tend to randomly select the amount to give too. But like anything there has got to be a minimum effective dose (for whatever the effect is supposed to be). IMO, it is just another one of those things that is not necessary. Adequate studies have not been done on the cardiovascular risk of using this either.

There's a link I posted to the PubMed research articles (10,000 of them) that prove what CO can do. Granted, most are about human effects, but there are some tests that were done on dogs.

I agree, CO is not a neccessary nutrient, but as my pups get only fatfree treats, I feel a little bit of CO balances it out by the end of the day. Store bought treats are either high protein and/or high fat, so not really ideal to add either. Also, the fat in the food is LCTs, so by adding CO, which is predominantly MCTs, I am not duplicating what is already there.

I did some research to determine the dose to give each of my dogs, then ran that info by my vet. Too much can cause diarrhea, but before that happens, the coat will begin to appear oily. When I see that, I back off on the dose.

I looked into CO when Tink had her LS surgery. The vet said she would need additional surgeries to remove bladder stones for the rest of her life. One benefit of CO is that it disolves kidney stones, which also can occur with LS. I am taking the chance that by feeding her CO, it will prevent her from needing any additional surgery. To date, she has not had any UTIs since feeding her CO.

Peek a Boo has cataracts, but has always had vision. Since being on CO, I feel his vision has improved, and that the cataracts have not gotten worse. He was not a good candidate for the surgery. This I attribute to the antioxidant action of the CO, but I am not sure. Nothing else in his diet has changed.

Also found this: DogAware.com Articles: Pancreatitis in Dogs

Medium-chain triglycerides

Medium-chain triglycerides (MCTs) are a form of fat that does not require pancreatic enzymes for digestion, so it is well tolerated by dogs with chronic pancreatitis, EPI, and other forms of fat malabsorption. MCTs can be used to increase calories, and to help with the absorption of fat-soluble vitamins for dogs who cannot tolerate other forms of fat in their diets. MCTs may help to reduce triglyceride levels in the blood and prevent pancreatitis that is caused by hyperlipidemia, though it does not lower cholesterol levels.
MCTs are found in coconut oil, and small amounts are found in dairy fat. Purina Veterinary Diets EN Canine Formula, one of the prescription diets recommended for dogs recovering from pancreatitis, uses coconut oil to supply 22 to 34 percent of its fat. MCT oil is also available, but MCT oil is not very palatable, so you may find coconut oil easier to use.
Coconut oil is 63 percent medium-chain fatty acids (8 percent caprylic, 7 percent capric, and 48 percent lauric), and 36 percent longer-chain fatty acids (16 percent myristic, 9 percent palmitic, 2 percent stearic, 7 percent oleic, 2 percent linoleic), while MCT oil is made up solely of the shortest of the medium-chain fatty acids, caprylic and capric acids. If your dog has problems with coconut oil, MCT oil may still be an option.
When feeding coconut oil, it’s best to use virgin (unrefined) oil sold in glass jars. You can give as much as 1 teaspoon per 10 lbs of body weight daily, but start with much less and increase only gradually as you see your dog can tolerate it. (See “Crazy About Coconut Oil,” October 2005, for more information.)

[107barney]

I decided to ask a question about CO to Dr. Remillard, a board certified veterinary nutritionist. You can all see the question and her answer by clicking the link below. Seems to settle some of the issues I wondered about especially with regard to pancreatitis. PetDiets - Ask the Veterinary Nutritionist (DVM + PhD)

If the link cannot be accessed, here is a cut and paste.

QUESTION:
A constant source of debate on a yorkie forum involves coconut oil and I'm hoping you can shed some light on this hot topic. I searched your FAQs and have not seen any info on this topic. Thank you in advance.

It is alleged that since coconut oil is a mostly a medium chain triglyceride, it does not require pancreatic enzymes for digestion and is therefore well tolerated by dogs with chronic pancreatitis, EPI and other fat malabsorption disorders. It is also alleged that MCTs can help absorb fat-solubme vitamins for dogs who can't tolerate other fat in their diets. Is this true, and if so, is it true for Coconut oil specificaly. If dogs with pancreatitis can eat coconut oil without the pancreatic enzymes secreted, is there any other potential problem with adding this to the dog's food?

Also, are you aware of any anti-oxidant effects of coconut oil with regard to canine eye health or any other disorder for that matter? As part of the almost unending list of reported miraculous effects, we have heard that there are dogs with better vision, better coats, better tolerance to allergies and inflammation, and even one person who swears it has dissolved bladder and kidney stones in dog with liver shunt. Clearly you can see why so many are jumping on the coconut oil bandwagon.

Finally, the dosage of coconut oil seems to vary. Generally, people are feeding up to 1 tsp per 10 lbs of body weight, added on top of regular dog kibble. Assuming the only down side of adding coconut oil is the addition of calories, what is the dose you would recommend being added to a dog's kibble diet per body weight?

ANSWER:
MCT are fatty acids with 8-12 carbons. LCT are 16-24 carbons. Hence MCT are digested and absorbed faster than LCT. MCT does require some lipases and bile acids for digestion just less than LCT because there are fewer carbon-carbon bonds that need be broken before gut absorption can occur.

Here is the most important difference: MCT are smaller more soluble in water hence they can be absorbed in the blood circulating around the gut. LCT are fat soluble and cannot be absorbed into the blood, they must be absorbed into the lymph circulating around the gut. Eventually, the both get to the liver (MCT much sooner than LCT).

Coconut oil is mostly C6 and C8 - about 70% of the fat in coconut oil is in the MCT form and about 20% is LCT but it is 100% fat. Fat is Fat and they all have the same caloric density (9 Kcal/g or 120 kcal/tbsp).

How much to give? There is no one dose for all cases - in each case someone should be calculating the dose based on the reason of giving the coconut oil and what effect you want in the dog. If you need to add fat for calories to the diet for weight gain, then figure out how many more calories you want to give in a day, divide by 9 and that is the dose.

What is the dose you would recommend being added to a dog's kibble diet per body weight? I would not be recommending coconut oil to normal healthy dogs … could give it but there is no specific reason or advantage to doing so …. Anyway 1 tsp per 10 lbs of body weight = 45 kcals to a dog needing 260 kcal/day is increasing the caloric intake by 17% - which should increase weight if that’s needed. But you could do this with any vegetable oil and save some $$.

Pancreatitis - the pancreas is stimulated by how much fat is in the stomach chime: less fat lower stimuli. The type of fat has little effect on whether the pancreatitis is stimulated or not. Hence most pancreatitic diets have low fat and the calories have to come from the “dreaded” carbs .... MCT or coconut oil still requires lipase and bile acids so there is some stimulus to the pancreas and liver.

EPI - the veterinary enzyme replacement products are so effective (and expensive) I have never had a case where I had to change the type of fat in a well management EPI case. Now there are enzyme replacement knock-offs and so if you go cheap on the meds, you might be able to make up for by paying $$ for an MCT oil – but why??

Anti-oxidant effects of coconut oil with regard to canine eye health? No not heard or read of it.
Anti-oxidant effects of coconut oil in anyway? That does not make any physiologic sense – in fact quite the opposite given it is a fat and contains double bonds. Fat with double bonds need protection from oxidation – do not provide protection.

Coconut oil dissolving stones – ??? No fat of any type has been implicated in any type urinary stone formation, dissolution or prevention. Acting as anti-inflammatory compound defies the mechanisms of action as we know them today – I think someone is confusing this with the effects of EPA and DHA.

Better coats – sure increasing the fat content of any diet makes the coat better…. Does not matter what type of fat is used.

Other fat malabsorption disorders – too vague ???
Lymphangectasia - YES here is where the carbon length matters. Feeding MCT gets more calories into the dog using the portal blood supply and lowers the stimulus to the lymphatics. Feeding LCT fat stimulates the lymph and makes protein losses into the gut worse. Always try to get MCT into a Lymphangectasia dog.

Fat soluble vitamins do need fat for absorption but they require micelle formation in the gut, and MCT being more water soluble than LCT, make very poor if any micelles. Fat soluble vitamins are better absorbed with LCT.

Downside to feeding MCT – nothing is perfect …..
Poor palatability – diet rejection
Vomiting
Osmotic diarrhea
Expensive
Coconut oil as a source of MCT – has had a better track record and is usually (not always) accepted by the dog.

[Ellie May]

Love Dr. R! Saved me more searching. Fat is fat. All fat creates shiny coats. There is little proven about CO benefits relating to disease management. And pancreatitis can still occur.

[ladyjane]

Very detailed information. Thanks for getting those facts, Cathy!

[BrittanyVThomas]

Just had to say that I bought coconut oil for the sole purpose to use on my skin and hair. Little did I know that Mia would become an addict to licking my skin when I put it on! I reach for the jar and there she is, jumping up and down licking her chops. I have put a tiny bit with her food and haven't had any trouble. But now I have to try to hide from her when I use coconut oil

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by BrittanyVThomas

Just had to say that I bought coconut oil for the sole purpose to use on my skin and hair. Little did I know that Mia would become an addict to licking my skin when I put it on! I reach for the jar and there she is, jumping up and down licking her chops. I have put a tiny bit with her food and haven't had any trouble. But now I have to try to hide from her when I use coconut oil

I had to laugh...I have a couple that drive me crazy when I put lotion on. I always put it on at bedtime...and have to immediately dive under the covers or they are licking it off. I just cannot imagine why...I would think scented lotions would taste horrible...guess it is the smell.