High urine ph

[Farleys]

Has anyone had any experiences with high urine ph with their dogs? This is about my Labrador , only 8 months old. I know he isnt a yorkie!! But I hate the one labrador forum i found, they are sooo not helpful. So here is the story: I work at the Veterinary Clinic by the way. SO a couple weeks ago, my lab, started peeing blood. One day he was fine, the next day, he was straining to urinate and it was bloody!!!! So i take him in, he has a severe urinary tract infection, and they seen Struvite Crystals( common in utis this bad) ANd high ph. So he takes his 2 week round of antibiotics, and today i brought him into work with me to recheck his urine. Today , the blood is complelty gone, but his ph is HIGHER, and more struvite crystals. Then the dr asks what i am feeding, and i tell her, and she says well that should be fine. I said well could it be diet related? And she says well i would say yes if you were feeding a crazy grain free diet, or something like that i would say maybe, although grain free usually makes their ph lower.........
Okay, so am i crazy or did she just first try to say if i was feeding a grain free that could be the problem....
but then she says although grain fee diets usually make their ph lower.
So then wouldnt it make sense to try him on a grain free diet and see what happens?
I will admit as much as i like her and respect her as a dr she has no knowledge when it comes to nutrition really. I am going to talk to the other dr tomorrow about it to see if it would make sense to try a grain free diet. But I would love to know if any of you have had a dog with NO MORE Infection, still have high ph and struvite crystals, and if it was diet related.

[Ellie May]

The urine has to be cultured for infection to be ruled out. That is the next step along with an xray to make sure those crystals didn't form struvite stones (or maybe a u/s if you do cystos there and can check really quick).

[Farleys]

already done xrays, and there is no reason to do a culture right now! Thanks for the info tho

[107barney]

Agree a culture should be done two weeks after stopping antibiotics. I had a similar issue and the dog had a subclinical infection creeping into the kidney. Urine was clean until it was cultured and kidney ultrasounded. The dog required 6 weeks of antibiotics to clear it under the care of a specialist. Struvites are almost always the result of a UTI.

As for the struvites and high Ph and diet. If you alter the diet to acidify the urine, you could end up with oxalate stones. After about a year of battling struvites in my other dog, I found the best and most simplest advice I got from a vet was to liquify the diet. I used diluted chicken broth that I made myself. When I was in a pinch, I used diluted tuna fish water (no salt added, trader joe's brand).

Good luck

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Farleys

already done xrays, and there is no reason to do a culture right now! Thanks for the info tho

Well, veterinarians and veterinary specialists believe there is reason to do one in these cases. UTIs don't always show up on u/a. It sometimes takes time for the bacteria to grow. And anyway, it is NEVER a bad idea to do a culture when an infection is/has been present because it is a much better idea to know which bacteria you are trying to get rid of. My dogs have had their share of urinary issues. One had symptoms of a uti with clean urine. We did a culture. The IMS wanted yet another culture just to make sure nothing grew.

As Cathy said, if you're going to use something to acidify the urine long-term, you could run into other issues. With a higher pH and struvites still present, there is obviously a problem. If it is a remaining infection and it isn't treated because nobody would do a culture, then you will also run into more problems which I'm sure you already know.

[ladyjane]

One of my fosters had struvites recently. She had been treated previously for a UTI and it did not clear. Culture was done and the results showed that a different antibiotic was needed. She just completed a course of Primor this past week. She is going for a cysto on Monday to see if the infection is cleared and hopefully the struvites will be gone. I will try to remember to post the results.

[Farleys]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Well, veterinarians and veterinary specialists believe there is reason to do one in these cases. UTIs don't always show up on u/a. It sometimes takes time for the bacteria to grow. And anyway, it is NEVER a bad idea to do a culture when an infection is/has been present because it is a much better idea to know which bacteria you are trying to get rid of. My dogs have had their share of urinary issues. One had symptoms of a uti with clean urine. We did a culture. The IMS wanted yet another culture just to make sure nothing grew.

As Cathy said, if you're going to use something to acidify the urine long-term, you could run into other issues. With a higher pH and struvites still present, there is obviously a problem. If it is a remaining infection and it isn't treated because nobody would do a culture, then you will also run into more problems which I'm sure you already know.

ITs not that they dont beleive there is a reason to do one in the case. Its just not right now. Struvite crystals are not BAD!!!Many non serious things can cause struvite crystals. ANd neither is high PH, unless it stays this way and constantly causes reoccuring infections. There is no blood now, so thats a very good sign.
Thanks for everyones input. I fully trust my vets decision. There are 5 of them, and i trust every single one. He just finished abx on thursday. So if the time comes that they recommend a culture i will do it for sure. I have also worked their long enough to know cultures often come back with no answer!!! So i wouldnt do one if it wasnt necesary. It can often be a waste of time. I have experienced that many times with a previous dog, that had chronic utis.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Farleys

ITs not that they dont beleive there is a reason to do one in the case. Its just not right now. Struvite crystals are not BAD!!!Many non serious things can cause struvite crystals. ANd neither is high PH, unless it stays this way and constantly causes reoccuring infections. There is no blood now, so thats a very good sign.
Thanks for everyones input. I fully trust my vets decision. There are 5 of them, and i trust every single one. He just finished abx on thursday. So if the time comes that they recommend a culture i will do it for sure. I have also worked their long enough to know cultures often come back with no answer!!! So i wouldnt do one if it wasnt necesary. It can often be a waste of time. I have experienced that many times with a previous dog, that had chronic utis.

I am sorry, but I beg to disagree on this statement. With chronic infections, cultures are indicated and are not going to come back frequently with no answer!

[Farleys]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I am sorry, but I beg to disagree on this statement. With chronic infections, cultures are indicated and are not going to come back frequently with no answer!

Thats fine, you may have had different experiences than mine. I Have worked at a clinic for 14 yrs, and have seen this many times. I am by no means against them. As i stated i would have it done if its reccomended. I happen to have had a dog growing up, who had a constant uti. Cultures were done, xrays, bloodwork, and not just once, but multiple times, never an answer. But thats not what my post is about. i was just curious if anyone here has had diet influence urinary health.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Farleys

Thats fine, you may have had different experiences than mine. I Have worked at a clinic for 14 yrs, and have seen this many times. I am by no means against them. As i stated i would have it done if its reccomended. I happen to have had a dog growing up, who had a constant uti. Cultures were done, xrays, bloodwork, and not just once, but multiple times, never an answer. But thats not what my post is about. i was just curious if anyone here has had diet influence urinary health.

As for your diet question, the only thing I can say is that I follow my vet's recommendations. I do not have any reason to think she is so uneducated that she cannot advise me on basic good nutrition with regards to most conditions. I once had a pup that was beyond her knowledge and she referred me to the vet nutritionist at Texas A&M.

As for the rest of your post, I have deep concerns about you saying that you worked in the field for 14 years and are advising people that cultures are not a good diagnostic tool. That is just, in my personal opinion, so wrong. Sadly some people believe everything they read. They will believe what you said and quite possibly their animal will suffer because of it. Untreated and under treated infections can wreak havoc on a pup. You are advising that people should go against what is commonly known as an excellent diagnostic tool. I don't know if you have indeed worked in the field, and in what capacity, but I question something here. I am a registered nurse and have studied microbiology and I know how important culture and sensitivity studies are. I am almost speechless over this.

[Ellie May]

Well, I hope you find the answer. Obviously a piece of the puzzle is missing if a dog has high pH and struvites after being treated for a UTI. Tests come back clean all the time, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to skip them. If there are struvites present with no infection (which hasn't been determined yet), then it is possible that the pH has been up for awhile. It could be somewhat dietary. I'd be much more concerned that something is being missed though. If it is, then it could turn into a kidney infection. To each their own though. Good luck with your pup.

BTW, my pup had a nasty UTI. It cultured as e. coli. After it is cleared (nothing seen on u/a), his vet wants another culture to make sure it is gone. It's standard of care for UTIs. I'm not saying I do them everytime. But more often than not it is the safest route for the pup.

[107barney]

If you want nutrition advice, I suggest you contact a vet nutritionist. And when you do, if you contact the one some of us use, she'll tell you to get a culture done.

BTW most grains are acidic. Therefore the ph # would go down, not up if the urine became more acidic. So your vet was correct.

Struvites can't form in normal to acidic urine. The best way to do this as I said is to liquify the diet with water, broth, etc. After you've done a culture.

So to recap:
low pH = acid
high pH = alkaline
grains = acidic
acid/low pH = struvites can't form but oxalate crystals can
struvites form in alkaline urine, usually due to infection
Culture is needed.

[jimmy85]

My yorkie had struvite bladder stones removed. Following her surgery she's had recurrent UTI. She's had Ultrasound/cystos/urinalysis, etc. The diet has been modified initially to a Science Diet brand food which made oxalate crystals form and then she was moved into Royal Canine SO food which has worked better.

In the process of elimination through caught samples and cysto urine samples taken the vet was able to determine the UTI was a lower UTI vs upper UTI. Think Kidneys to Ureter to Bladder to vulva to on the grass anatomy for the urine pathway.

We've had good luck with the RC SO food and have recently added the nutraceutical craninidine 1/4 per day to the diet. It is a cranberry extract which can affect urine pH which makes the conditions for bacterial growth less favorable.

Additionally we have kept Charlie's hair cut short. We have patted her area with a pampers sensitive skin baby wipe then patted dry with a napkin after she goes to the bathroom. I take a caught urine sample every 6 wks for analysis and take a bi-weekly pH of the urine with litmus paper. You can buy litmus paper at a pharmacy. The pH that my vet recommended was between 5-6 for Charlie.