Food? or is it something else?. . .

[imdll]

Lu is my first tiny dog but not my first small dog. I have had numerous different breeds over the years but larger than the just under 3.5 lbs Lu weighs in at. Her tiny size is of course one of the reasons I watch her health so closely. I'm not a complete stranger to medical issues with dogs I've dealt with a dog with cancer and rehabilitated a 90 lb Giant Schnauzer after he broke his back and was left unable to walk for a time. I realize Lu's size makes it very important to watch her health as she has very little reserves and things can change rapidly if she were to become seriously ill.

I have a bit of background from rasing my kids as well. Of my 4 children 1 was full term, 3 were technically pre-term as preterm is considered anything earlier than 3 weeks before term. One 3.5 weeks (6 lbs 13oz), one 5.5 weeks (4 lbs 15 oz) and one 8.5 weeks pre-term (3 lbs 7 oz). The last one was born the same weight Lu is now and came home from the hospital at 4 lbs 3 oz. When it comes to medical stuff I'm probably a little less flappable than most as I've kind of been there done that and definitely got the t-shirt.

I will have to pay better attention when Lu does her gagging thing. It has seemed terribly random and the first time she did it she had been pretty distracted all day and so I thought maybe she hadn't eaten quite as she should have and so maybe her blood sugar was kind of low. She has never had blood sugar issues but being so tiny and so busy it seemed reasonable that maybe she just kind of forgot about eating. I did give her a little bit of corn syrup on the roof of her mouth just in case.

When she does her gagging thing and then vomits a little bit it has only ever been bile, which to me says her stomach was empty, which is why I thought maybe she hadn't eaten as she should.

The time frame was over a period of two days. The first night Lulu seemed fine except out of the blue she jumped off my husband’s lap, gagged a little and vomited a little bit of bile, she did that twice. I figured maybe she hadn't eaten properly and as a precaution put some corn syrup on the roof of her mouth. (As I mentioned she has never hadblood sugar issues but it was what sort of made sense at the time.) The rest of that evening Lu seemed fine. The next day she seemed maybe not quite as perky but not exactly sick. She still ate and drank and played a little bit but she did seem to maybe be a little bit off. No other gagging or other symptoms. The next day after that she seemed pretty much the same as the day before but she didn'tseem to be eating much and so I was watching her pretty closely. She didn't have diarrhea but her stool was much softer than usual when she went poop just before noon. At supper time she pooped again but it was nothing but gloppy mucous, no stool. Just before bed she pooped again and this time there was some stool and mucous and a small amount of blood. I did a bunch of reading to see if I should be panicking and considering what I read and her general demeanour I was concerned enough that if things didn't change by morning Lu was definitely going to the vet but not feel that she required going immediately. By the next morning everything was cleared up and Lu was acting like she didn't have a care in the world, ate a good breakfast, drank well,went outside for a pee, had a bowel movement and it was completely normal. . .zero symptoms.

There was no soft or loose stool, no gagging etc. until this past Wednesday and she gagged a little bit and then threw up a little bit of bile. I was worried it could be the start of the same sort of cycle of events and that would indicate the possibility of something more serious but nothing more developed and that night, she ate well, drank well and no bowel issues and no gagging issues since. Just a silly busy little dog.

As far as what the gagging is, I don't think it's a burp and is more of a retching all be it rather slight. Sort of a very minor version of when a dog will eat grass and throw up, kind of a cough, clearing throat and then a little bit of bile. Does that make sense how I 'm describing it? I will also say that the amount she was vomiting and the mucous and soft stool etc. was not to the point of a dehydration issue. Of course if the not drinking much had continued then dehydration would certainly have been a concern but not due to loosing fluids and more due to simply not taking in enough.

As for as possible causes Lu doesn't eat treats except very very rarely.It's one of her little quirks but it does make it easier to know she isn't eating anything she shouldn't be. For the most part she'll sniff treats (even roasted turkey) and she might even taste it but most often that's about it.

I haven't changed any cleaning products etc. but that doesn't guarantee she didn't come in contact with something that didn't agree with her. I will watch for any possible causal issues and see if I can notice a pattern.

Right now the mucousy stool etc. seems to be a none issue as there has been no sign of bowel issues for at least a week. The gagging thing is pretty sporadic and she gagged once and had a little bit of bile vomit on Wednesday (which is when I panicked and worried maybe it was a sign of bad things to come) and then she gagged and coughed a little bit tonight once but no bile. (played like a crazy woman tonight and ate and drank fine) Is it possible the air is too dry? Could it besomething that silly? We live on the prairies and the air gets crazy dry in the winter and pretty much sucks the moisture right out of your skin. Could it be hair in her throat from cleaning herself? Is it possible it could be something that silly? I will watch for other things that may be factors as you have suggested. It may very well be that the gagging vomit and bile is completely unconnected to the acting ill and mucousy stool and that is was just a coincidence that it occurred the way it did before.

I'm not going to take Lu in for tests and stress her out if there is nothing to investigate. As long as she seems like she is doing fine and her energy levels are good and she is eating well and drinking well and there are not signs of problems with her bowels then I'm not going to stress about it. (If it comes back then I guess it will be time to get some testing done.) I suppose dogs can not feel well sometimes just like people. The occasional gagging thing does have me wondering a bit and so I will keep an eye on that and see if I can figure out a pattern of some sort or causal factor.

Thank you. I do appreciate the comments and concerns. I know they are coming from compassion and that without knowing me or being able to see the situation for yourself it's very difficult to know what to suggest and that erring on the side of caution is a better choice than to be too casual about possible health issues. Particularly when dealing with such a little dog. I promise I am keeping a very close eye on things.

Ok, my goodness that is darned near a novel. Sorry about that!

[megansmomma]

Did these issues start when you changed food? I'm asking this because the gagging, bile and occasional poop issues are all things my boys did while on Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Brown Rice and Lamb which I considered a high quality food and thought they were doing well on it for almost 2 years~except for what I considered an occasional gagging, bile and poop issues. It happened about once a week and was very random and there was slight blood in a poop on a few occasions. I did not ignore the blood and I went to the vet, had blood work and nothing was ever found wrong. I had always chalked it up to it eating too fast or empty tummy when other issues were ruled out with vet checks. Doodlebug was at the vet in late summer as a matter of fact and his blood work was "perfect" for a sick dog.

I have always purchased the large bag of NB and divide it into small Ziploc bags and stored it. When I went to feed them late one evening I realized there wasn't the one last bag I thought. They were starving and out of desperation I went to Target thinking I would buy a can of something to feed them for the night and run out in the morning to Petco to pick up their "good" food. Instead I picked a bag of kibble~ OMG ~they have not gagged, thrown up or had a bad poop since. GASP~it's PURINA ONE Beyond
Healthy Pet Food Products: Purina ONE® Beyond?

The reason that I am repeating this entire story is that your little one sounds to me just like what I was going through. I firmly believe after 8 weeks of not picking up nasty poop, no gagging, no bile and not one threw up that it was the NB at the root of our problem. In short, I believe that you should schedule a vet visit to address your concern but at the same time I would consider the food choice a possible cause. I've come to realize with my own experience that "premium" foods might not be all they are cracked up to be. Who would have thought PURINA ONE BEYOND would solve all our problem.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

Did these issues start when you changed food? I'm asking this because the gagging, bile and occasional poop issues are all things my boys did while on Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Brown Rice and Lamb which I considered a high quality food and thought they were doing well on it for almost 2 years~except for what I considered an occasional gagging, bile and poop issues. It happened about once a week and was very random and there was slight blood in a poop on a few occasions. I did not ignore the blood and I went to the vet, had blood work and nothing was ever found wrong. I had always chalked it up to it eating too fast or empty tummy when other issues were ruled out with vet checks. Doodlebug was at the vet in late summer as a matter of fact and his blood work was "perfect" for a sick dog.

I have always purchased the large bag of NB and divide it into small Ziploc bags and stored it. When I went to feed them late one evening I realized there wasn't the one last bag I thought. They were starving and out of desperation I went to Target thinking I would buy a can of something to feed them for the night and run out in the morning to Petco to pick up their "good" food. Instead I picked a bag of kibble~ OMG ~they have not gagged, thrown up or had a bad poop since. GASP~it's PURINA ONE Beyond
Healthy Pet Food Products: Purina ONE® Beyond?

The reason that I am repeating this entire story is that your little one sounds to me just like what I was going through. I firmly believe after 8 weeks of not picking up nasty poop, no gagging, no bile and not one threw up that it was the NB at the root of our problem. In short, I believe that you should schedule a vet visit to address your concern but at the same time I would consider the food choice a possible cause. I've come to realize with my own experience that "premium" foods might not be all they are cracked up to be. Who would have thought PURINA ONE BEYOND would solve all our problem.

Totally agree. It does sound like it could be food related. I have a pup that had multiple issues and I called my vet and spoke with her on the phone...it did not require a visit as he was like your pup...off and on and not sick to the point he needed to be seen. She suggested that I try Ultra z/d and it worked! There are many tests that can be done for IBD....but I personally did not feel I needed to put him through that since the food fixed his problem. My vet agreed....because even IF we came up with a definitive diagnosis, the treatment would be the same.

Another issue I had years ago with food actually was the same kind of thing...and all of my pups had it off and on. I thought it might be viral so I let it go .. until one day I thought...hey might be the food. Switched the food and they were fixed!

I would suggest that you perhaps call your vet and ask him/her for an opinion.
Good luck and please keep us posted.

[imdll]

Oh crud I hope it's not her food! I realize that would actually be a good thing and there are much worse things but this dog is so amazingly picky!!! When I say she doesn't eat treats I mean that since I got her in April she has maybe eaten some sort of a treat less than a half a dozen times. She ate a tiny bit of a cracker she found one time at my Mother-in-laws, I have a little 80g trial box of CaniSource, a new Canadian natural food that is 70% beef and freeze dried, that Lu has maybe had 3 pieces of and as I am writing this I just came to discover dun dun dun. . . (que menacing music) the day before Lu had the mucousy poop and little bit of blood my husband now remembers Lu had a tiny bit of roast beef! Seriously a tiny piece of roast beef? If that is what did the mucousy poop, and I won't know for certain unless it happens again sometime, that is amazing since she didn't have any issues when we first got her and she switched foods without taking her time.

If that is what caused the bowel issues that still leaves questions about the gagging and occasional bile vomit, so I will still be watching to see if I can identify a causal issue for that.

As far as the "premium" food thing goes, I tend to agree that some are not all they cracked up to be. We had a Giant Schnauzer that had crazy clear the room kind of gas and we tried every dog food we could think of. Made sure the foods didn't have corn and all the common things that can cause issues etc. The food that worked the best for him was the Kirkland Lamb and Rice Adult. Not a food that some high end food supporters would be thrilled with but that's what worked and we weren't going to argue with sucess.

We have two outdoor farm cats. Apparently the average life span for outdoor farm cats is about 3-4 years, these cats are currently 13 years old and they eat Kirkland dry cat food.

With regard to "premuim" dog foods I'm not entirely sold on their perfectness by any means. Some are far too hot for any dog we have owened. I do wish there was more diffinitive information as to what are the right porportions etc. of protien etc. for different dogs. I wish there were more certain answers to what is best. I have read that health issues can result if there isn't enough protien and health issues can result if there is too much. . . I wish people could get it figured out better so that one knew what actually is optimal for dogs like Lu or for dogs like my Grey Hound/ Scottish Deerhound etc. Lots of differing theories but very little cold hard proof.

If it turns out that the Acana adult we have been feeding is causing Lu issues then I guess it will be back to the drawing board and we'll look at feeding something else.

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences. It was good to hear that some people have had similar issues that turned out to be non-life threatening.

[kalina82]

i understand about the food thing. Its tough getting a tiny picky eater to find something they will consistently eat. Maybe you can call or email the company that makes Acana and ask for a sample of the Lamb and Apple variety. It is slightly less protein and fat, plus its a different source. Its may be similar enough to the adult dog food she's already eating but different enough to make a difference. who knows.

[Valenie]

I think I would be making a vet visit

[yorkietalkjilly]

The cause for blood or mucous in the stool should not be diagnosed by anyone but a vet in order to best protect your little one. They are helpless without our caring for them and can't seek out their own help. You would feel absolutely terrible if it turned out your baby had something you could help or even fix if you just knew what was causing the presence of blood or mucuous. Together with some unexplained spitting up, I would be sufficienty motivated to get my baby in for a vet check and some testing. I pray is is something you can treat.

[ladyjane]

I did not diagnose....I shared my experiences and suggested she call her vet. The vet may suggest she come in...and may suggest other things as well.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I did not diagnose....I shared my experiences and suggested she call her vet. The vet may suggest she come in...and may suggest other things as well.

Oh, no, wasn't addressing any post here. It just seems to me that OP is looking for someone to do that with this thread rather than seeking out a vet. Even if someone did try to diagnose on this thread, which I have never seen you do, Ladyjane, I was strongly suggesting that isn't what this dog needs. Seems like everyone wants to see this doggie vetted.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Oh, no, wasn't addressing any post here. It just seems to me that OP is looking for someone to do that with this thread rather than seeking out a vet. Even if someone did try to diagnose on this thread, which I have never seen you do, Ladyjane, I was strongly suggesting that isn't what this dog needs. Seems like everyone wants to see this doggie vetted.

*nod*

[Ellie May]

Well, it sounds like you're set on just waiting it out. If the question was has anybody had experience with these symptoms, then yes, my dog has had them all. She had a small amount of red blood in her stool once. It was a by-product her her having diarrhea (she is intestinally challenged). Her vet was made aware (and actually would have liked to see it for herself). The way it comes out can indicate what the problem is. A coating is different than drops, etc. A lot of times they will get a little bit of blood in their stool after having some diarrhea. And that would be my concern. They could get it with one bad stool, but the likelihood of it happening increasing the more diarrhea they have. So I would have to wonder exactly how much diarrhea this pup had and the hydration level.

I'm not one to be concerned if a dog throws up a couple times as long as they aren't dehydrating, but I'm not even sure that's what it sounds like. I thought my dog was puking. When I paid closer attention, I realized it was regurg. Much different. And then still entirely different would be a cough/gag producing liquid. All different problems with all different treatments. Be very careful about holding off on any regurg symptoms unless your vet is not concerned. They can lead to aspiration pneumonia. And if it is her throat, did it get scratched?

It's a matter of to each their own. Anymore symptoms and I would be at the vet immediately.

[imdll]

No I am not looking for someone to diagnose Lu's issues and quite frankly I find it tiresome how judgemental some individuals on this board can be sometimes. I was simply inquiring if there was anyone who had a similar experience that wasn't life threatening. At the time of my original post I was worried Lu’s symptoms might be returning, which they did not.

As muchas Vets have lots of schooling behind them (my husband's cousin is a Vet) it'sis just like with doctors, a lot of what diagnosis comes down to is experience and symptoms, prior to using invasive tests. A doctor or vet is not going to do a bunch of testing in this particular situation when symptoms are no longer occurring and when it is the duration or repeated occurrence of those symptoms which determines the need for concern in the first place. If I had taken Lu to the vet after the symptoms were already gone, he would have checked her temperature, asked me if she was eating or drinking and if she was active or lethargic, listened to her bowel sounds which would have been normal because her bowel movements were normal and then told me to keep an eye on her and bring her in if the symptoms returned. (Which is what I plan to do.) The mucous and small amount of blood was now over a week ago, while something to watch and for in case it returns it's not a reason to now seek veterenary care when she is now eating and drinking and playing normally.

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/hematochezia-blood-in-stool-in-dogs/page1.aspx

“One occurrence of hematochezia may be a minor and transient event. Repeated or persistent hematochezia is more serious and should not be ignored.”

Thus had the mucous stool occurred again or there been any blood on her stool, as I was fearing may occur on Wednesday when I posted, I would have collected a sample and taken Lu to the vet.

Here’s a news flash for those who haven’t figured it out yet. . . . doctors and vets don’t have crystal balls! Too many people run to their doctor or their vet when there is nothing for them to diagnose. A onetime occurrence of this sort of thing where symptoms have ceased after a short time (and this is not necessarily true for all health issues) is reason to pay attention not reason to panic. In this sort of matter you need symptoms in order to determine cause or to give reason to test for cause.

I appreciate the initial concern shown by some but not the continued issues after I have literally gone to great lengths to explain and even provided vet information supporting my thoughts on the matter. I would be extrememly surprised if your vet would tell you anything different but will ask mine the next time I speak with him. I have also explained that I am not some naive young person with no experience behind them who is not aware of the fragility of the health of tiny dogs or tiny children for that matter. I realize dehydration etc. is a huge risk and know the difference between slight and extreme. (Read small amount of bile, not vomitting for a week.)

Thank you to those who shared experiences and provided food for thought. It was appreciated. I will continue to keep an eye on Lu and if there is any change to indicate further intestinal issues I will have her examined.

With regard to the gagging coughing issues. I would agree that something like kennel cough would be something to consider if the cough were more consistent. She has done the coughing thing four times in two weeks. Twice in one night just before she got ill and then once two days apart. I would think something like kennel cough would be more consistent than that and present with more symptoms than one cough resulting a little bit of bile. I highly suspect that after watching Lu and her eating habits these past few days that she has not been eating as regularly as she should be and that is why her stomach has been empty. I may have to coax her a little bit as food is apparently not a top priority in her little world. However if she does it again I will have her looked at as repeated unusual health issues certainly warrant further investigation.

Thanks again.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

D

I have always purchased the large bag of NB and divide it into small Ziploc bags and stored it. When I went to feed them late one evening I realized there wasn't the one last bag I thought. They were starving and out of desperation I went to Target thinking I would buy a can of something to feed them for the night and run out in the morning to Petco to pick up their "good" food. Instead I picked a bag of kibble~ OMG ~they have not gagged, thrown up or had a bad poop since. GASP~it's PURINA ONE Beyond
Healthy Pet Food Products: Purina ONE® Beyond?

Purina One Beyond is actually a really decent food, IMO. Their ingredients are not that different from the NB.... just more ingredients really. I also do not like the added menadione at all otherwise I'd probably consider feeding it (although I haven't looked at the fat content of it).

Beyond:
Lamb, chicken meal, whole barley, whole brown rice, whole oat meal, soybean meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), dried egg product, brewers dried yeast, dried beet pulp, natural flavor, fish oil, salt, caramel color, whole blueberries, dried sweet potatoes, dried spinach, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

NB Lamb & Rice:
Lamb Meal, Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Rice Bran, Canola Oil, Lamb, Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor, Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

What I find funny is that Purina One Beyond and SD Natures Best boast about "no soy, no wheat, no corn" and this and that, so what, are they trying to say that all of their other formulas are bad?? lol. So much of it is just marketing, with ALL dog foods. I've learned that there is going to be something wrong with every dog food out there and complaints about every dog food out there so we just gotta do what is best by our pups and what we feel is right!

[ladyjane]

Just a little FYI: Science Diet has discontinued Nature's Best.

[concretegurl]

So what's the update here?

Did you ever do a fecal at the vet's in the least?

I feed TOTW because the brown rice base in Innova was too harsh on my fatties, they needed grainless.
We also do RAW/BARF.
I'd do model prey but I'm lazy atm.
Has anyone ever noted hypoglycemic Yorkies do exceedingly better on a RAW diet?