Help, I'm scared!!! A tooth (NOT a baby tooth) just fell out of my 3 y.o.'s mouth!

[MauiGirl]

Tara, that IS amazing that the labs are turning out so great. Tiki's labs came closer to normal after 1 yr. of lower protein diet, even though I quit giving her supplements. She had been on Denamarin, and hated it so much, she could detect even a tiny bit disguised in food, and it made her more picky about all food.

We are not presently monitoring BA and ALT. But after hearing your good results, I'm tempted to try Vetri as a support. I want to do the best for Tiki, but not micro manage. She only has symptoms when somebody feeds her the wrong thing (one bite of pork, sausage, etc.), and it takes about 4 days to get the toxins out of her system. She is still thin, you can feel every rib & spine, and I am just happy when she will eat somewhat normally.

You are such a good mommy to your girls. Hope EllieMay and Patti will see your good lab results, we are all interested in sharing thoughts and info on medical management of MVD.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by MauiGirl

Tara, that IS amazing that the labs are turning out so great. Tiki's labs came closer to normal after 1 yr. of lower protein diet, even though I quit giving her supplements. She had been on Denamarin, and hated it so much, she could detect even a tiny bit disguised in food, and it made her more picky about all food.

We are not presently monitoring BA and ALT. But after hearing your good results, I'm tempted to try Vetri as a support. I want to do the best for Tiki, but not micro manage. She only has symptoms when somebody feeds her the wrong thing (one bite of pork, sausage, etc.), and it takes about 4 days to get the toxins out of her system. She is still thin, you can feel every rib & spine, and I am just happy when she will eat somewhat normally.

You are such a good mommy to your girls. Hope EllieMay and Patti will see your good lab results, we are all interested in sharing thoughts and info on medical management of MVD.

Bella has never had any symptoms, so I know she's probably different than a lot of dogs that have MVD (or that know about it anyway).

She LOVES the Vetri-Liver chew! I think it really stinks, and at first she was tentative about eating it, but now she would be really mad at me if she didn't get it every morning.

I'm not monitoring BA's either. I was told that they will always be abnormal, so it's not worth it. I will keep doing a lab panel once per year, though, since ALT is a measure of how many liver cells are dying (some is normal, obviously). I'm the same way....I want to do the best for her without going overboard! She eats kibble (Natural Balance Organic, which has chicken as it's main protein and doesn't have any organ meat in it....it's 22% protein and doesn't contain any ingredients that are GMO's, sprayed with pesticides, or given antibiotics or hormones, all of which have to help since the liver would have to process all that crap right?--I get it at Pet Supplies Plus now, but they have it at Petco too) and I've found lots of different store-bought treats too (they have to be chicken, egg, cheese or vegetable/fruit, with no organ meat and no other animal proteins, and NONE with high protein content).

Oh! Do you give Tiki fish oil? I didn't realize that besides being good for the skin and coat, it also has an anti-inflammatory effect, so it helps the liver repair itself (along with the milk thistle and DMG that's in that soft chew). The only problem with the fish oil is, that a lot of dogs don't care for it, and if she's a picky eater anyway, that would make it even worse probably. Bella won't eat her food anymore without her daddy licking it (yes, I said licking it and no, my spit apparently doesn't have the yummy goodness that daddy's does ) or me mixing it with a tiny bit of mashed potatoes. Maya on the other hand, doesn't care that there's fish oil and vitamin E on hers too....she gobbles it up, yum!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

I guess I was so relieved that I forgot to post about our vet appointment today! Her vet said that it looked like the tooth had snapped off, that there weren't any roots on the tooth (which I brought with me to show him), but he also didn't see anything left in her mouth. He said it's possible the root part fell out after the tooth, and it's also possible that a little bit could be left in her mouth that we just can't see right now. He just told me to watch that area for any swelling and inflammation, but that he thought it would be just fine. Yay!!!! I'm so relieved! I was really getting worried that something else was going on. He said maybe she ran into something that I didn't notice or something....I have no idea how it happened.

(Also, I asked him about scraping her teeth myself, which I just did for the 2nd time 2 or 3 wks ago, and he said her teeth and gums look amazing! He said that when she starts getting older, that she may need a professional cleaning to get anything that starts getting built up under the gum line, but that I'm doing a great job taking care of her teeth, and that scaling them once per year won't hurt them at all....where people get in trouble is when they're doing it fairly often. He said to keep up the good work and to also keep on brushing! I know a lot of people on YT are against it, but I've had 3 vets now tell me it was okay to do it myself. Honestly, I'm just trying to balance out the negatives with the positives, and I think for us this makes more sense than sedating them...for now. I do know that in a few years, they'll need that professional cleaning anyway, but until then, I'm going to do what I can to keep theirs little mouths in as good a shape as I can.)

Thanks for the information, I too, have read really great breeders say they scale their dog’s teeth yearly, and wondered why people here are so against it. Did he have any idea why the tooth came out?

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thanks for the information, I too, have read really great breeders say they scale their dog’s teeth yearly, and wondered why people here are so against it. Did he have any idea why the tooth came out?

I have done a little scaling myself, but I do understand the concerns about possible injury to the gums or teeth if the dog moves suddenly, Also, scaling below the gumline where most of the bacteria is cannot be done while the dog is awake. Then the teeth should be polished after scaling to protect the enamel.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Maximo

I have done a little scaling myself, but I do understand the concerns about possible injury to the gums or teeth if the dog moves suddenly, Also, scaling below the gumline where most of the bacteria is cannot be done while the dog is awake. Then the teeth should be polished after scaling to protect the enamel.

Thanks!

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thanks for the information, I too, have read really great breeders say they scale their dog’s teeth yearly, and wondered why people here are so against it. Did he have any idea why the tooth came out?

Didn't read all the new posts yet (trying to register for stupid classes ), but I think each owner has to decide if this is a good idea or not for their own dog.

I can't recommend it and nor would my vet (special interest in dentistry, goes to conferences for it, etc.). The American College of Veterinary Dentistry has a position statement on it and that is why many of us are against it. It's believed to be not much more than a cosmetic procedure. Ellie has a little bit of tartar, but her gums are fine. Her vet doesn't believe a dental is needed right now. I could scrape her teeth and leave them "open" because I can't buff them. I'd probably be doing not much more than getting rid of something that is unpleasing to the eye. She would probably still have issues under the gumline. I don't want to get rid of something that is just indicating that there is a bigger issue going on. So I'd rather keep it there and wait for it to get bad enough to tell her vet she needs a dental... Different ways of doing things.

[MauiGirl]

I'm really interested in trying Proden Plaqueoff to help with teeth. Brister is loving it for Jackson in addition to using Petz Life gel occasionally.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thanks for the information, I too, have read really great breeders say they scale their dog’s teeth yearly, and wondered why people here are so against it. Did he have any idea why the tooth came out?

Nancy,

I scale all my dog's teeth, on the average of every 8 to 12 weeks or so. I was taught my my vet on how to perform this function, as he recommends it to keeps teeth cleaning down as well as that dreaded anthestia. Yes, one has to be careful on not going beneath the gum line and drawing blood as this can drop infection in other parts of the body, such as heart.

Keeping in mind that when you have your dog's teeth professionally cleaned to tune of $200.00 or more, your vet is not performing this function, the vet tech's are. That is why one of my first questions when interviewing a new vet, "do you perform all dental work or do your vet tech's do it? If the answer is vet tech I find another vet....I'm paying big money to have my dog's teeth worked on...I want the teeth cleaning to be done by the vet not the tech. It's not about saving money, but taking care of your dog's health.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thanks for the information, I too, have read really great breeders say they scale their dog’s teeth yearly, and wondered why people here are so against it. Did he have any idea why the tooth came out?

He said it broke off, so he thinks she must have ran into something....who knows?! He said it definitely has nothing to do with her health or the health of her teeth....just some sort of accident.


About the scaling, it was my understanding that when plaque builds up on teeth, some of it is sort of forced under the gum line. My thinking is that keeping her teeth cleaned will help minimize the amount that builds up under the gum line (you could never completely prevent it, obviously). I asked my vet about being able to tell if plaque is building up under the gum line if her teeth have been scaled, and he said that her gums would show...that's how he'd know. He said that he'd be able to tell that she needs a professional dental for her gums even if her teeth look clean. Scaling the plaque DOES make their breath better, but I'm definitely not doing it for cosmetic reasons. He said that by scaling her teeth myself every so often, that she will need a professional dental less often, which he sees as a plus because that means less anesthesia....and it also means that we're keeping the bacteria in her mouth down, which can affect overall health. I also asked (again) about polishing the teeth afterward, and he said it really isn't as necessary to do that as people think it is. I don't know....it makes sense to me to get their teeth super smooth afterward, but I don't really know how long that super smooth even lasts?? My guess is, not long, but I don't know that for sure.

I agree that the decision to do it should be made on an individual basis, and I'm definitely not suggesting everyone should do it!!! It makes sense for us. I worked for several months awhile back as a dental assistant, and while I never did any scaling myself (you have to be certified to do that in OK at least), I've watched and helped with my fair share of scaling/cleanings. Also, my dogs hold very, very still for me. My vets know how much I love my babies, and I'm positive he would tell me if he didn't think it were a good idea. And let's face it, he would make more money if he told me not to do it. (He knows that I wouldn't do it if he told me it wouldn't be good for her--last Fall/Winter when Bella's S.A. had gotten so bad I couldn't even leave the apartment without my fiance being home to stay with her, my stress level (and hers!) was at an all time high...so high, in fact, my hair started falling out! It was a super hard decision for me to put her on Prozac because I didn't want to do anything to hurt her liver, but I finally realized that the stress was probably doing even more damage. So, I agreed just to try it, as long as we were really monitoring her liver enzymes. I spent over an hour talking with her vet, pretty much crying the entire time I was there...because the thought of putting her on medication upset me plus how totally stressed out I was. Believe me, he doesn't question for a second that I would do anything to jeopardize her health!) That's why I have to believe its helpful rather than harmful for me to do it....otherwise I definitely wouldn't.

Again, I'm only sharing what makes sense for us....I am in no way suggesting that it makes sense for all of us! And I also know that she will eventually need an under the gum line cleaning, which I can't and won't do. I'm sorry for causing some debate. I probably shouldn't have shared that.

[bellasmomok]

Crystal, did you see how good her ALT is now (earlier post)??!!! (It's so low (for her), that I'm actually a little worried the lab made a mistake! ) I started thinking about what made the difference, and I think it does have a lot to do with her diet and the supplements, but now I'm thinking that the Prozac might actually be the reason her ALT is in the normal range for the first time ever! Maybe the stress (from her S.A.) was keeping her ALT higher?? I know stress can really affect health....I dunno, just a theory. Of course, her ALT has never been as high as some I've heard of.....it was 345 before I changed her diet. But to drop from 122 to 64 in a matter of 6 mo. is pretty amazing all the same!

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by MauiGirl

I'm really interested in trying Proden Plaqueoff to help with teeth. Brister is loving it for Jackson in addition to using Petz Life gel occasionally.

You might already know this, but Petz Life contains grain alcohol....not a good idea for a dog with any liver issues. I was actually told that it's probably okay to use it very minimally (like maybe only once or twice a week, and only very very sparingly), but I don't know how much luck you'd have with it using it so infrequently. (And I don't know anything about the Proden product...I'll have to look it up.)

I'm considering trying a chlorhexidine oral gel, though. Anyone have any recommendations??

[Ellie May]

Debate isn't bad. That's how we learn.

There was a thread here awhile back where we had this discussion. Theh company Houndstooth is pretty much doing the same thing as an owner would be by scaling w/o anesthesia. I vaguely remember a story or two on that thread about how it ended up in disaster (or maybe a private vet had done it anesthesia free).

My vet would rather not use anesthesia also, but it is probably the best option for them in the end. We don't do yearly dentals. It's just not necessary for my dogs. The risk of the tartar is balanced with the risk of anesthesia, so a few litle spots with healthy gums = no dental for them. I a huge fan of OraVet and won't be without out. IMO, it's a healthier option for thier mouths.

Anyway, it's a personal preference hopefully based on valid research.

BTW, I would be drugging too if ellie had such an issue with SA. There is no question - quality of life first.

[Ellie May]

And then there is the Petzlife debate. LOL..

Might as well just rub some alcohol on their teeth..or peroxide (that'd probably be safer). It really concerns me in liver compromised dogs and I have to wonder about pancreas compromised dogs too. Alcohol is an absolute no-no in people with pancreatitis. Wouldn't touch the stuff. BC doggie dentists are saying no Petzlife.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Debate isn't bad. That's how we learn.

There was a thread here awhile back where we had this discussion. Theh company Houndstooth is pretty much doing the same thing as an owner would be by scaling w/o anesthesia. I vaguely remember a story or two on that thread about how it ended up in disaster (or maybe a private vet had done it anesthesia free).

I recall at least one case where the dog ended up with a broken jaw. This is why I believe scaling at home is one thing, where owner and dog work well together, but I would never allow anyone else to do anesthesia-free work on my dogs.

[Ellie May]

Here is the position statement from ACVD:
AVDC Position Statements | AVDC - American Veterinary Dental College

Forgot that the other advantage to having a vet do it is intubation. I bet the cuffed endotracheal tube keeps some of the bacteria from distributing through their symptoms (when my teeth are scaled, I'm told to rinse and then it gets sucked out rather than swallowed).

That was it - a broken jaw.
Then there was another one - finally had a vet do it. The visable surfaces were white, but the dog lost tons of teeth because they are destroyed under the gums.

And polishing after does create a smooth surface. It's harder for plaque to stick. No polishing just makes them more susceptible to problems. After a cleaning under anesthesia, the teeth start to accumulate plaque in 15 minutes. If there is really a place for it to stick, it just makes it worse. Sooo that is why I skip doing it at home. I'd love to be able to, but just won't. I don't think it's healthy for my pups when thinking about what is going on systemically. I think if the visable surfaces need a cleaning, then the subgingival area does too. Doing one and not the other is leaving tartar behind and leaving their bodies open to bacterial issues. But that is JMO.

Vet techs do cleanings here, but my vet does the exam. I wouldn't insist on the vet doing the cleaning anymore than I would insist on my dentist cleaning my teeth instead of a hygienist. IMO, they are trained to do this, and if the vet is doing the exam and reading the xrays that is fine with me. The prices probably reflect the fact that even if a tech is doing the cleaning, the vet has to block off their schedule to be near their anesthetized patients, do the exam, etc.