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01-03-2011, 08:32 AM | #1 |
Owned by Rory & Lane Donating Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,893
| Titers/Vaccines - please help! Titers keep coming back negative. I'm not sure what to do about my girls vaccinations. At their annual checkups each year, I like to have a CBC run, titers run (more for doggie daycares than anything), heartworm test and fecal done, along with just an annual exam by the vet. Everything came back great for both girls in terms of their health. Rory's titer for distemper came back negative and parvo positive (they always test for distemper and parvo), suggesting she MAY need the distemper vaccine since I'm aware titers don't paint the whole picture. I'm hesitant to vaccinate her again, but I guess I don't really have a choice when it comes taking her to daycare. She has horrible separation anxiety, so avoiding daycare isn't an option unless I never leave our place again. I've had Rory since she was a puppy, and she had all the appropriate puppy shots and one year DHPP booster along with a 3 year rabies vaccine. Last year, her titers for both distemper and parvo came back positive, so there was no issue. Lane is a puppymill rescue who just celebrated her second year with us. Since I have no idea what shots she received as a puppy (if any), I wasn't too surprised to find her distemper and parvo came back negative last year (one year after we rescued her and she received initial documented vaccines from the rescue). I went ahead and revaccinated her thinking she might really need it. Well, her titers again came back negative for distemper and parvo again this year, and I really don't think she needs the vaccine again, but again, I guess I have no choice when it comes to following the rules of daycares. I guess I'm lucky that I have found some that accept titers, because many still follow the antiquated annual vaccine protocol no questions asked. I guess my question is that I now know the AAHA suggests vaccines every three years or longer for the most part, which I still think is too often, though better than annually. Should I have them both revaccinated using what my vet refers to as the 3 year DHPP, so theoretically I wouldn't need to titer them for "proof" to daycare for at least three years? Does anyone know if the DHPP 3 year vaccine is similar to some of the rabies 3 year vaccines where it is the same exact shot as the 1 year, meaning my girls in theory would be protected titers or not? I'm also wondering if I should try to order just a single distemper vaccine rather than combo for Rory, but I could again be in this situation next year with titers coming back negative. Last year, I tried to get the vets where we lived at the time to order a single for distemper and single parvo for Lane and I literally called about 30 places before I gave up and just had the DHPP given (again since I wasn't sure about her puppy shots). We have since moved to a totally different state so I'm not sure how much trouble I'll have if I do decide I want singles. I hope I am making sense. I have a call in to my vet. She isn't really pushing to have them revaccinated to be protected since titers don't necessarily mean they aren't protected. I don't want anyone to think I'm a negligent pet owner. I just don't want to overvaccinate, but I certainly don't want them not protected either - they are social attending daycare, going to dog parks and meetups. My last dog passed away after fighting lymphoma for two years, and who knows if overvaccination had anything to do with it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. OMG! I just saw how long this is all typed out. Thanks to anyone who read through it all.
__________________ Rory and Lane now have a dog blog, Doggie Debutantes. Find us on Facebook here. Last edited by TresCutePiggies; 01-03-2011 at 08:35 AM. |
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01-03-2011, 08:44 AM | #2 |
And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 17,928
| I've never heard of a 3 year distemper b/c all distemper vaccines should last at least that long. It's probably just a regular one labeled that way. Or is it recombinant? This is exactly why I stopped titering. Ellie's distemper came back low twice for no reason. Decided it was a waste of money. You are in more of a spot though. Absolutely ridiculous that they wouldn't get a single in for you. I'd call around again if you want it. Ellie's vet automatically did it for me. They aren't hard to get, it's just that vets don't want the rest of the box sitting around for just one dog. The rest is JMHO. I would do DHPP again for Lane. She is so young still and I'd be concerned that the titer is actually alerting you to something important. Remember also that dogs can be non-responders, but I doubt that would be the problem here. I would not revaccinated Rory, but because you ahve to I guess you have to. I would do distemper only in that situation. I would not give it yearly though; so if this keeps happening, something else would need to be figured out. Talk to the vet about the 3 year distemper. See what company it is, etc. If she thinks that the daycares will take that instead of titers, it would be a definite consideration.
__________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶 |
01-03-2011, 09:10 AM | #3 | |
Owned by Rory & Lane Donating Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,893
| Quote:
Looking on the paperwork the vet just lists it as the DA2PP 3 year with the reminder dates. Just to clarify a bit...I should have done it like this to being with. Rory We got Rory has a puppy in 2007. 2007 - all puppy shots December 2008 - DHPP and 3 year rabies vaccine December 2009 - All titers are okay December 2010 - Distemper titer negative/low We got Lane as a rescue when she was estimated to be 2 years old in 2008, so she is actually a year older than Rory (probably), not sure if it matters since we don't know her complete vaccination history, but she is probably 4 now. Lane December 2008 - DHPP and 1 year rabies vaccine given by rescue December 2009 - 3 years rabies vaccine; titers for distemper and parvo came back negative/low, so she was given DHPP again December 2010 - Distemper and parvo titers again negative/low I suppose her lack of puppy shots could be part of the problem for Lane? The vet is working this afternoon, and the receptionist told me she'd probably call back towards the end of the day, so I won't know specifics on vaccines until then. It was when we lived in Atlanta last year they wouldn't order any single vaccines for me and I called all around the metro Atlanta area too. We are in southern NJ now, so I'm hoping it will be different, but I won't know until I speak with her.
__________________ Rory and Lane now have a dog blog, Doggie Debutantes. Find us on Facebook here. | |
01-03-2011, 06:46 PM | #4 |
YT Addict Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: San Diego
Posts: 288
| I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you as I'm new to titers with my two pups. I'm very concerned about over vaccinating too as both of mine have had reactions in the past (long term GI issues and injection site lumps, etc.). Our holistic vet said she's never seen the titers come back negative so I'm very curious to hear what you decide to do. We may be in this situation in the future. It's so hard to know what is best for our babies and to make the best decisions for their health. Our daycare has given us an exemption for bordetella too because they have had respiratory reactions to that one too. All the best to you and your pups. |
01-03-2011, 08:04 PM | #5 |
I♥PeekTinkySaph&Finny Donating Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 18,866
| Try again... If a dog has a fever or is sick... even mildly, it can affect a vaccine, and the proper antibodies won't be produced by the body. The 1 and 3 year DHPP are the same, The 1 and 3 year Rabies are the same. They are written as 1 year bc the dog needs to have 2 of each vaccine, DHPP and Rabies, given a year apart, in order to be considered protected. Once done, then the vaccines are written in the chart as 3 year DHPP and 3Year Rabies, even though they are the same vaccines that were given as 1 year vaccs. Here is Dr Dodds' Protocol: CANINE VACCINATION PROTOCOL – 2010 MINIMAL VACCINE USE W. Jean Dodds, DVM Note: The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable. The schedule is one I recommend and should not interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice. Age of Pups ----------------------Vaccine Type 9 - 10 weeks------------------------------------------ Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy DPV) 14 weeks -----------------------------------------------Same as above 16 -18 weeks (optional) -----------------------------Same as above (optional) 20 weeks or older, if allowable by law ----------Rabies 1 year -------------------------------------------------------Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV 1 year -------------------------------------------------------Rabies, killed 3-year product (give 3-4 weeks apart ) from distemper/parvovirus booster) Perform vaccine antibody titers for distemper and parvovirus every three years thereafter, or more often, if desired. Vaccinate for rabies virus according to the law, except where circumstances indicate that a written waiver needs to be obtained from the primary care veterinarian. In that case, a rabies antibody titer can also be performed to accompany the waiver request. **************** ************************ ******************* When you get a dog with an unknown vaccine history, they should get a DHPP and Rabies, then repeat in one year, then start the 3 year schedule.
__________________ Kat Chloe Lizzy PeekABooTinkerbell SapphireInfinity Last edited by kjc; 01-03-2011 at 08:06 PM. |
01-03-2011, 09:40 PM | #6 |
Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina
Posts: 8,317
| What a tough position to be in. Since the girls go to daycare, you probably have no choice but to re-vaccinate if the titers are negative, right? Try Revival for single dose vaccines. Not sure if they still do, but they used to sell them. Pet Supplies | Dog & Cat Supplies | Vaccines | Revival Animal Health |
01-04-2011, 04:47 AM | #7 |
Furbutts = LOVE Donating Member Moderator | I too follow Dr. Dodds, Dr. Schultz (love!), and Dr. Rogers -- love reading their stuff! Here's the thing that bothers me about Dr. Dodds' chart above (there is another one online that I use as well, but have the one you're using too, Kath)...and maybe someone can help clear this up. (EllieMay/Crystal, remember when we've tried to figure this out many times before? ) Okay, so....why does the Dr. Dodds chart seem to indicate that the 14-16 week shot is 'optional'. Arguably, that's THE most crucial shot, since the MDAs (maternally derived antibodies) have the least chance, by far, of interfering with (or blocking completely) the vaccine. Quote from Dr. Schultz: "No combination core product currently available will immunize an acceptable percentage of puppies when the last dose is given at 10 weeks of age. The last dose should be given at around 16 weeks of age, regardless of the number of doses given earlier. In the absence of MDA - it only takes a single dose to prime, immunize, and boost. Nevertheless two doses are often recommended, particularly in young animals, to be sure one is given when MDA cannot block. That is why in the puppy or kitten series, the last dose should be given at around 16 weeks of age or later." Another thing to consider for DOI is the strain being used, here are the different strains and their DOIs for distemper: Rock born Strain---7 yrs/15 yrs---(challenge/serology) Onderstepoort Strain---5 yrs/9 yrs---(challenge/serology) Canarypox Vectored rCDV---3 yrs/4 yrs---(challenge/serology) All of this is why vaccines are so confusing...to me as well. Even though this kiddo could have cellular immunity (but no humoral immunity, as indicated by the titer)....and cellular immunity is the goal...if it were me, I would probably get the vaccine like others have mentioned. {I know we keep hearing that this Dr. Dodds chart is the 'correct' one, but it has never been clear to me why she would indicate the 16wk shot is optional, when it's the most crucial}
__________________ ~ A friend told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn. ~ °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° Ann | Pfeiffer | Marcel Verdel Purcell | Wylie | Artie °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° |
01-04-2011, 07:58 AM | #8 | |
Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina
Posts: 8,317
| Quote:
In one study of a cross section of different puppies the age at which they were able to respond to a vaccine and develop protection covered a wide period of time. At six weeks of age, 25% of the puppies could be immunized. At 9 weeks of age, 40% of the puppies were able to respond to the vaccine. The number increased to 60% by 16 weeks, and by 18 weeks of age, 95% of the puppies could be immunized. Parvovirus: Serious Diarrhea in Puppies & Dogs | |
01-04-2011, 09:23 AM | #9 |
Owned by Rory & Lane Donating Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,893
| Thank you everyone for all the responses. The more I read the more I wonder what is "right"! I've always (with no real scientific backing) believed the least amount of vaccines that can be given and still protect the pup is ideal and what I'd like to do. My vet called me last night and after talking with her for a bit she told me she felt they were both protected for 3 years from the date of their last DHPP vaccines, and she would be happy to write a letter stating as much. I'm hopeful the daycares will accept these letters since I already begrudgingly have to give them the bordatella every 6 months. If not, I will have to look into the singles for distemper and I guess parvo for Lane, though this December will be 3 years since Rory's last DHPP and I assume if her titer was low/negative now that it will be in December too. I also found it very interesting she mentioned that they switched labs performing the titers and that the one they currently use, which is less expensive, takes more of a general overview and since they have switched from a place in Colorado, which is much more expensive, but more specific (sorry I am so unscientific) that they have had many more negatives/lows come back since the switch. I guess my biggest question is how much not having the puppy shots may affect a dog, but I see where kjc mentioned when a dog has an unknown history they should get a DHPP and Rabies, then repeat in one year, then start the 3 year schedule, which I believe is what I have done with Lane. Thanks again to everyone for reading my little novel.
__________________ Rory and Lane now have a dog blog, Doggie Debutantes. Find us on Facebook here. |
01-04-2011, 10:49 AM | #10 |
And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 17,928
| That's the weird thing about titers. There are too many unknowns with them. Ellie's were sent to CSU also...at least once. I didn't realize she was younger. I think you should go with what your vet is comfortable with. If Ellie were that young and she did end up with a low titer, her vet would want to boost it as far as I know. Because she is older we have stopped entirely. She said if I needed a letter from her, she had success with it. Just saying it is her medical opinion that the dog shouldn't be revaccinated at this time... That Dr. Dodds thing as bothered me. Maybe we can get clarification on it. That is one reason why I've moved away from her protocol.
__________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶 |
01-04-2011, 11:54 AM | #11 | |
Furbutts = LOVE Donating Member Moderator | Quote:
Me too. Her old chart (the one that some have said is not by her) doesn't have that "optional" thing...which is why I always used that one, bc the optional part on her new chart didn't jive with the other things I've read (like by Schultz).
__________________ ~ A friend told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn. ~ °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° Ann | Pfeiffer | Marcel Verdel Purcell | Wylie | Artie °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° | |
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