New Yorkietalk Member - Very long message - question abouts lymes

[WinstonJ8996]

Hi, I'm a new member but i've been visiting this site for awhile now. Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this message but I also have a few questions that I'd like to ask too. This message will probably be way too long and really confusing. Again, I apologize because I'll probably be jumping around on different stuff.

Here's some info on my Yorkie - His name is Winston, He's 14 years old. He weighs about 9.6 - 10lbs. We're from NJ but two years ago we moved to Upstate NY. Earlier this year ( about May ) , my dog was diagnosed with having a lyme disease exposure and also protein in his urine. He eats Newman's Own Kibbles and I also feed him The Honest Kitchen Force and sometimes Keen. The meds / supplements he's on are - Ask Ariel Fish Oil ( which I give him an 1/8th tsp every other day) , Flying Basset Proanimal Probiotics ( give him 1/8th tsp everyday) , Ask Ariel Purrfect Pet 60mg CoQ10 gelcaps. ( I give him 1 gel cap every other day mixed in with the fish oil)
For flea / tick protection - I bathe him with Ark Naturals Neem Shampoo and spray him with Ark Naturals Neem Spray.

Anyways - here is my story about Winston and lymes, his kidneys, etc...
- I had found ticks all over him in May 2010 , mostly engorged and that was the first time he ever had a tick on him so it was very shocking to me. It might not seem like a big deal to some people but I had never dealt with it before and I felt absolutely guilty. He was also drinking more water and urinating more. He was not on a flea / tick med because I didn't want to put chemicals on him. When we first moved to upstate NY, two years ago, he had a flea / tick collar on for awhile because my parents got it. Anyways, my dog was in great health until we moved to upstate NY and we had to find him a new vet. My parents would always take my dog to the vet appts. & frankly, I didn't realize what kind of harm was going on. My dog was given the lymes vaccine and the DHLPP(?) vaccine at the age of 12. I'm truly disgusted that he got these vaccines and if I could rewind time so this never happened, I would in a heartbeat. He never had any bloodwork or urinalysis done at that vet either, which looking back on it now seems kind of strange for an older dog. Then, fast forward to when I found the ticks on him... We called his vet, he went in.. an assistant looked him over & didn't find anymore ticks on him and he had a scheduled appt at a later time to get vaccines. My father was going to take him but after I looked all over the internet about these vaccines, I realized it was not the right thing to do. I honestly begged my father to not take him and I told him we should cancel the appt. He wouldn't do it. My father doesn't understand what danger the vaccine caused my dog. After my dog got the lymes vaccine a 2nd time & the DHLPP vaccine a 2nd time from that vet, he never went there again. We found a new vet that did a SNAP test on him and it came up positive for lymes. We did a Quant C6 test , CBC, chemistry panel & urinalysis. He was put on 50mg doxycycline twice a day for 28 days. His lyme antibody number on the C6 test was 127 - after 28 days of doxycycline - the number dropped to 29 - so the treatment was successful. The results of his urinalysis were off - He had protein in his urine & considering that he had lymes disease, I'm now afraid he has lyme nephritis. The vet has never told us whether he has it or not because his bloodwork in July was ok. Here are some test results of two different urinalysis, two different UPC's and bloodwork results regarding his kidneys.


Urinalysis
6 / 22 / 2010
collection method: free catch
Color: Yellow
Appearance: Clear
USG: 1.022
Glucose: Neg
Bilirubin: Neg
Ketones: Neg
Blood: Neg
pH: 6.0
Protein: ++
Urobilinogen: normal
Leukocytes: neg
WBC / hpf: ----
RBC / hpf: ----
Casts / hpf: ----
Epithelials / hpf: ----
Bacteria: + cocci ( ? )
Crystals: + amorphous fragments

Recheck Date: 7 / 20 / 2010
Collection Method: voided
Color: Bright Yellow
Appearance: Clear
USG: 1.030
Glucose: neg
Bilirubin: neg
Ketones: neg
Blood: neg
pH: 7
Protein: 3+
Urobilinogen: neg
Leukocytes: neg
WBC / hpf: neg
RBC / hpf: neg
Casts / hpf: neg
Epithelials / hpf: neg
Bacteria: neg
Crystals: + fragments

He had another urinalysis done in October and the vet said he had some crystals but other than that she didn't say much. I did have ( UPC ) ratio done two different times. Here are the results from those two tests.

August 24th, 2010
Urine Creatinine: 116.7
Protein Quantitative: 76.0 T.
Protein Creatinine Ratio: 0.7

October 5th, 2010:
Urine Creatinine: 111.9
Protein Quantitative: 70.0
T. Protein Creatinine Ratio: 0.6

He had a CBC / Chemistry panel done on June 23rd, 2010

Results that important regarding his kidneys:
Creatinine was 0.7
His BUN was 17

Sorry for the long post....After successfully clearing the lymes from his system with the doxycycline in June....he didn't have another tick on him until October 2010. After the UPC was done in August, the vet put him on doxycycline for 21 days to see if the number could be lowered and it did decrease, as you can see from the results. So he was on doxy in June for 28 days, on doxy in August / Sept for 21 days. Then, on October 25th.. I felt a bump on him and found another tick! I felt absolutely terrible because as I said before I wasn't using any tick / flea meds so it's my fault entirely. but after his lyme exposures in May, I stopped letting my dog run around near the woods so I didn't understand why this was happening in the fall. The tick I found was engorged - I didn't have the tick twister so I tried to use tweezers and ended up squashing the tick. I was devastated. The next day, the vet was called and I asked if my dog could be put on doxycycline. She said only for 14 days, which I found weird because I thought it might need to be longer but we did it for the 14 days. So he was on doxycycline for 2 weeks.... After the 2 weeks.. another week went by and I was having anxiety about my dog being exposed to lyme again, and I don't want the lyme to do further damage to my dog's kidneys because I believe he has lyme nephritis. So the vet was called again and she said only to ease my worries, she would put him on doxycycline for one week. This didn't make sense to me, as I've read it's appropriate to put the dog on doxy for 28-30 days or sometimes even more to clear the bacteria. I was upset but agreed to one week. So he was on doxycycline starting Oct 26th for two weeks, then skip one week and he was one it for a third separate week. My concern is that he should go on doxycycline for atleast 28 days. Does anyone agree with me or can anyone give me some feedback on all of this. If he had one engorged tick on him that was squashed, wouldn't it be right to put him on doxycycline for a full 28 days? I know that he is 14 years of age and no doubt in my mind that the vaccines he received at age 12 and 13, lowered his immune system or did even worse, like damaged his kidneys. So, I'm not sure what to do... If the vet is called again - she's really going to think I'm crossing the line for wanting to put him on doxycycline for 28 days to an exposure to one tick... Other than that, he has still been drinking more and urinating more. I told the vet that and he's going to have follow up bloodwork and urinalysis done in January or February. I did purchase a product called Petalive TF Defense - it's used to help support the immune system when a dog has lymes - here is the link, TF-Defense - Support Dog & Cat Health During Tick Fever Recovery if anyone has used it or has any info on it, that would be greatly appreciated. It contains, Milk Thistle which I've never given my dog and I'm nervous about it. If anyone has any suggestions on any supplements / meds that would be beneficial for my dog , that would be also appreciated. I'm sorry for the long message

Thanks, Jessica

[joann1166]

BUMPING this up so maybe somebody can help you!

[ArmaniMan]

Where in upstate Ny do you live?

I can't answer your vaccine questions- but I may be able to help you locate a better vet depending on where you live.

Edit: also milk thistle supports healthy liver function- so if it is in a supplement you use it won't hurt your dog- mine take milk thistle because they have a liver condition.

[WinstonJ8996]

Hi, Thanks.. I wrote that post at about 5am and now I'm looking back on all my spelling mistakes wishing I could revise it.

But anyways, I think my message was probably a little bit too long and I'd like to get some opinions on what to do. Here is a shorter description of my concerns / questions.

Basically, my dog had an engorged tick on him back in October and he went on doxycycline for 2 weeks and then one seperate week. My question is, should he go on doxycycline for a full 28 days to completely clear the bacteria, even if it was only one tick? The engorged tick was squashed in the process of trying to remove it, which I know isn't a good thing. He isn't really having any symptoms of lyme and I know lymes can be asymptomatic. I have alot of anxiety about calling the vet a third time and asking her if he can go on doxycycline because she disagrees with me. I just don't want the lyme bacteria to linger in his system and cause furthur damage to his kidneys, that he might already have from his last lyme exposures.

Thanks, Jessica

[WinstonJ8996]

Hi, I live in a small town on Lake Champlain, near Vermont. The vet I'm going to now is ok because she has been very helpful, unlike the last vet he went to. We left the last vet he was going to because of him receiving unessecary vaccines at the ages of 12 and 13. I've looked into a holistic vets which is located into Vermont but honestly I can't afford it right now. I'm just concerned as to whether my dog should go on doxycycline for 28 days for an exposure to one tick that was engorged, and basically wasn't removed correctly.

[jencar98]

I am never comfortable trying to answer questions like this that should be answered by a professional. Given the age of your yorkie and his recent meds history maybe you could contact another vet for a different opinion. I do agree with the usage of milk thistle though for protecting the liver but would make sure my vet was aware of it being used.

[Doodlebug]

someone posted this info a while back. I printed the phone # to have on hand but I have never had to call so I don't know if it is still a good number or if the info is still 'free'.

Quote:

"you can call the university of pennsylvania vet hospital for FREE advice 24 hrs a day 215-746-8911"

[WinstonJ8996]

thanks, I appreciate the info.

[Britster]

YT username Ellie May is usually good at answering these kinds of questions, so I hope she responds, or you could message her maybe.

Jackson got diagnosed with Lymes in January of this year. He is 2 years old now so he was only a little over 1 at the time. He was also put on 2 weeks of doxycycline and the vet said he was cleared. He's gotten maybe two or three ticks since then but they have always been removed right away. The only reason I knew he had lymes was that he began limping.... so it affected his joints and after x-rays, etc, they finally did a lymes test which came up positive. But it hasn't affected him in any way. And from my understanding, even if the dog does not have lymes anymore, they could still test positive for it.

[WinstonJ8996]

Yeah, my dog was originally diagnosed with lymes in June after he had a bunch of engorged ticks on him. After 28 days, he successfully cleared the bacteria from system and he was good until October when I found one engorged tick on him. The vet didn't seem concerned with putting him on more than two weeks. I just don't want to take the chance of having him go through what he did in May / June. He never showed any real symptoms except drinking & urinating more frequently which he is still doing. One of his eyes were also bloodshot and then after he started the antibiotic, the eye cleared up completely and has been fine ever since. The vet did say she was suspicious of that. I've read that it is a symptom of lyme nephritis but again, as I said before, the vet never said yes or no to if he has lyme nephritis or not. Since he did have protein in his urine, the vet said it could be attributed to his age and she also said it could be because a dog with lymes can shed protein in the urine. I'm not sure about all of it. My dog is not scheduled to go back to the vet until January or February, for follow-up urinalysis & bloodwork. I'm just hoping that the 2 weeks he was on doxycycline for one engorged tick was enough to clear the bacteria. My family thinks I'm overreacting about whether or not he should be put on more antibiotics. I'm just so overprotective of my dog because I've had him since I was 7 years old and he's truly my best friend.

Thanks again for all of the replies. I appreciate it so much.

[107barney]

Protein in the urine can indicate a kidney infection. Was a culture and sensitivity done? What kind of crystals were present?

[Ellie May]

The problem with giving doxy for every engorged tick incident is that it sounds like he would be on it all the time. Have you started him on tick preventative? What one?

The lyme's vaccine itself can cause a high titer, so the dog tests positive for the disease but doesn't really have it. That may not have happened here, but is possible. I would be concerned about the polyurea/polydipsia. Whatever is causing it, lyme's or not, it needs to be treated immediately (today). Something isn't right. It could be lyme's nephritis or it could be stones (was an xray done) or an infection or or or... Was a culture done? Xray? Ultraound? Kidneys problems are not uncommon in older Yorkies, but even if it is just old age, there are things that can be attempted. If he is drinking a lot, diuresis may help. A kidney diet may also be tried. Time to switch vets.

[lil fu fu girl]

First let me say that I am sorry you and your pup are going through all of this. Lymes is tough , my 8yr. little girl who is 4.5lbs has it.
She also went through the 28 day cycle of antibiotics(doxy as well), which lowered her count significantly. I use many of the same products that you do, with the exception of TF defense.

I cannot understand why a licensed vet would give an already Lymes diagnosed pup another Lymes shot? This mistake alone is why you should seek another vet. This procedure is simply not done on an already infected pup, this vaccine contains proteins meant to excite the immune system; and on an already immunocompromised pup this is dangerous.

Long term kidney disease does occur with both Lymes and Lepto due to the antibodies that are released by the immune system to attack the infection. Unfortunately, these same antibodies that are released, in massive doses during infection, get caught within the glomeruli, the tiny framework that does the actually filtering within the kidneys: causing the glomeruli to become clogged, scarred and to essentially cease functioning. The body being the miracle that it is, creates a way for the animal to continue to function by increasing water intake. The increase in water forces the glomeruli which are functioning to work overtime.

Whatever the cause, your pup needs to see a qualified vet who is educated in Lymes as CRF and CRI are long-term possibilities with this disease. I would also check into the ERD test to see if it would also be applicable. Kidney Ultrasound could also eliminate the possiblity that stones may also be in the mix.

Also, I would definitely check into his diet, newer research contradicts the old as far as lowering the complete protein content. Homemade with added fluids offer the best results from what I have read.
Good luck and please keep us updated.....

[WinstonJ8996]

A culture and sensitivity were not done. In October, he had a urinalysis done and the vet said there were crystals and recommend we feed him Hills diet - which we bought, he ate it but we ended up bringing it back as we are uncomfortable with the ingredients. He's now on The Honest Kitchen "Force" and "Keen". He also eats Newman's own. After my dog tested positive on the SNAP test, we did the Quant C6 test which showed 127 lyme antibody number - after 28 days of doxycycline, the number decreased to 29 and I was told the treatment was successful.

As far as the lyme vaccine goes - The vet that he was previously seeing gave him the vaccine. - it's not the vet that he currently goes to who gave him the vaccine. As I said before, a culture was not done - only a urinalysis and a UPC ratio were done. I posted the results of those in my first post. So, no culture, x-ray or ultrasound were ever done. When we got the results that he had protein in his urine - the vet recommend fish oil, that was it. When I told her my concerns of kidney disease and lyme nephritis, she said we could do a biopsy but she didn't recommend as she said she didn't see it necessary right now. During the day, he doesn't seem to drink a large amount of water but more toward the evening he seems to be drinking more and soon after he has to go out and pee because he's not conserving his fluid. This new vet he is seeing, I thought was a better choice for him considering the last vet who thought it was a good idea to administer lyme / DHLPP vaccines to a 13 year old dog. But, from what is going on now with the lack of information the vet is giving me, I've really been frustrated. His bloodwork was normal in July, he goes back for bloodwork and follow-up urinalysis in January or February. I'm starting to think it would be better to make an appointment sooner.
I bathe my dog with Ark Natural's Neem Shampoo and spray him with Ark Natural's Neem Spray. I use that as a preventative. Also, we have about 5 inches of snow right now in Upstate NY. He doesn't run around loose outside anymore because I don't want to take the chance of him getting another tick. He's an indoor dog anyways. We bought the Vectra 3d for him as a tick preventative because the vet recommended it and said she used it for her dogs. I never used it, I looked this product up here on the message and read so many negative things about and I didn't want to take the chance of side effects on my dog considering his health. My dog has been having more accidents in the house and has even been peeing right in front of me. This is very upsetting to me and it's all so frustrating what is happening. I truly believe that the vaccine definitely has a part in what's plaguing my dog right now.

I can't tell you how much the replies have been appreciated.

Thank you, and I will keep you updated.

[WinstonJ8996]

Hi, I'm just giving an update on my 14 year old Yorkie Winston's situation.
As I've stated before, he was diagnosed with a lyme exposure in June 2010 - the lyme antibody decreased from 127 to 29 after treatment with doxycycline so the treatment was successful. In October 2010, Winston had another engorged tick on him and he was put on two weeks of doxy, then another seperate week. My first initial post on this message board - I had discussed how I was concerned that the engorged tick could furthur worsen his immune system from his previous lyme exposure and I wanted to put him on more doxy. The vet told me it wasn't a good idea and we would test his lyme antibody in February to see what the number was. I hope that is the right decision. Anyway, Winston had and still does have somewhat increased thirst but more frequent urination and was having accidents in the house once in awhile. No other symptoms. He eats Newman's Own kibble, The Honest Kitchen - Keen , He takes Ask Ariel Fish oil, Ask Ariel COQ10 and Flying Basset Proanimal Probiotics, although I'm going to be changing him over to Animal Essentials Probiotics & Digestive Enzymes pretty soon. I bathe him with Dr. Harvey's Protection Shampoo and spray him with Ark Natural's Neem Spray - Both used as a flea/tick preventative.

Here are the recent tests that were done and important results.

A Urinalysis, Chem27 and T4 - All done at the end of Dec. 2010:

The Urinalysis showed protein in the urine as before, a USG of 1.032 and 3+ struvite crystals. His bloodwork was normal overall with the exception of an increase of his ALK Phosphatase - 188. Lipase - 761. His Thyroid Panel showed a result of 1.1 which was just normal.

An x-ray was done to see if he had stones because of the crystals in his urine - no stones were found. The vet looked over the x-ray and decided it would be a good idea to get an abdominal ultrasound done so we did that yesterday. The internal specialist who did the ultrasound said everything looked normal. Another UPC ( Urine-Protein-Creatinine Ratio) was done and it had increased from 0.6 in October to 1.1 . The internal specialist who did the ultrasound said this was good news and that we will do another UPC in 3 months. She said to continue giving him fish oil and that I should give him 1/2 baby aspirin everyday. I'm not going to give him the baby aspirin. From what i'm learning now, the baby aspirin wouldn't be a good idea because it could be dangerous for a dog his size - 10lbs.
They also ran a urine culture and we will get the results in a few days.

Other than that, my dog Winston still has somewhat increased thirst but more frequent urination. The bloodwork for December was normal, the urinalysis showed protein and the UPC showed an increased level which isn't good atleast from what i'm been researching. For the crystals in the urine, i'm being told to make sure he drinks more water, which I am and i've also started to give him The Honest Kitchen's ice pups which is a grain free treat that I make as a warm broth and he is enjoying that. I'll probably be talking to the vet in a few days and I will discuss what other tests we should do. Any input would be appreciated, Thanks, Jessica