Ready to change Tallulah's food - confused!

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

I honestly can't remember....a little more than 2 yrs ago is when I did extensive research on foods. Bella was still a puppy, and I was trying to filter through all of the info I had read on YT. I ended up doing a LOT of research, and that's one of the things that really stuck with me, because at the time she was a puppy. Shortly after I did all that research (it literally couldn't have been more than a week or 2) I found out through her pre-spay bloodwork that she had a problem with her liver, which led to a whole lot MORE research.....and obviously, at that point our options were a lot more limited.
Because of that, I wouldn't switch to high protein, grain free until the pups were 8 months old. Beyond that, it really is a personal decision. My honest opinion is, my dogs at least aren't athletes. Going on brisk walks is the extent of their athleticism, so they don't need a high protein diet. Agility dogs and working dogs probably would really benefit from it though. Also, I've read a lot of differing opinions on whether dogs and their ancestors (wolves) ate grain, etc..., so that just boils down to what makes sense to you and what you're comfortable with. I know some dogs have underlying kidney issues that causes them to go into kidney failure when switched to grain free.....not ALL dogs, but some. For me, it's not worth the risk. I suppose I might be more comfortable going grain free (I certainly am not AGAINST it by any means...it's just a personal choice) if I had a complete work up done (including labs) to make sure there weren't any kidney issues at all beforehand. But, again, that isn't an option for us anyway, so luckily I don't have to make that decision anymore. I will say, I did entertain the option of doing the patties that you thaw for Bella before she was diagnosed, though, so I may have ended up doing it.

As you said, kibble is a LOT easier than any other way to feed. I free feed mine...they each have their own plates, and they're not allowed to eat of the other's plate. Bella leaves hers and eats when she feels like it...she's always been that way, and she looks and feels super healthy, so I know it has nothing to do with her MVD...it's just how she is. Maya on the other hand generally eats what you put on her plate, so I have a set amount that I will give her over the course of a day. Right now, I allow her to have quite a bit more than Bella eats because she's still a puppy. If she's acts like she's hungry, I give her more. Bella self regulates....she'll only eat a certain amount and then leave the rest, so I never have to worry about her overeating. I said all that to say, I free feed mine also, BUT I measure out each amount I put on their plates. It would be a lot harder with several puppies I imagine, and I don't think that's necessary. Measuring the amounts out allows me to know how much they're both eating each day, which it's important to me to know that so I know they're both ok.

I'm sorry to hear that Bella had problems with her liver! Glad she is okay now. I def know what you mean when you say your yorkies aren't athletes, thats the thought that I had when I was considering switching them to a high-protein diet. Do they really need that much protein? But people do say that they've been eating meat for thousands of years so it's only natural for the.. but yes. after reading your post and others on YT, I've decided that I'll stick with solid gold puppy for now and after one year, then I will reconsider. I've noticed people really stopped feeding Solid Gold around here though. When I was on YT few years back most were feeding Solid Gold. WOnder what happened?

Also, how do you keep your dog from eating from different bowls? I haven't tried but it's hard getting them to eat from their own plate, even though they all have their own. THanks for your response!

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by dexterandalana

there are many different opinions about raw. to be honest, feeding prey model raw really isnt that difficult and doesn't take much time once you get the hang of it. i throw down a chicken leg (or lamb chop, etc) in the ealy afternoon and he usually finishes it by the evening. if there is anything left, i throw it away.

i use a feeding towel since dexter is afraid of plates (they make noises ) and i keep the same feeding towel for a few days before throwing it in the wash. i change dexters water once a day as usual.

raw meat is more dangerous to humans than it is dogs. there has been times where dexters meat sits on his towel for a few hours, then he eats it and he is fine. (he likes his meat warm.) when you think about it, in the wild, wolves dont always get to eat their meat within 30 mins of killing it and sometimes let it sit for days before coming back and finishing it off.

you are right. I keep thinking that they are humans. Even when they chew on shoes, I get shocked and I start thinking that they will get sick from all the germs! Of course they are fine I will consider feeding raw on the weekends as a treat. I just wasn't sure if I would do it wrong and they would get sick from it, or if they would stop eating kibbles bc they've been spoiled on fresh meat

[Britster]

I'll just link some of my previous posts for my views and beliefs on food, to give another spectrum.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/3220432-post6.html
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/3220686-post8.html

Also, want to add that the early research that convinced people of the myth of high protein damaging dog's liver was done on rats which are omnivores and their digestive system works entirely different than dogs which are carnivores. Rat's bodies are not designed to handle high protein the way dogs are. I am not aware of any research on dogs that points to high protein damaging dog's liver. I might be mistaken here, but in addition to using rodents, I believe the source of most of the protein was corn gluten, so it was pretty invalid regarding canines and high protein from meat on two fronts.

[Britster]

I've written this before, so I'll copy/paste.

The way I see it, it's just like with people... you have those who live off TV dinners and McDonald's, and you have those who shop all organic, and eat healthy every single day.

People who eat terribly, smoke heavily, etc. can live perfectly normal lives.

Just like the person who exercises, eats excellent and "does everything right" can drop dead at age 30 from a heart attack. Or a person who never smoked a day in their life can die from lung cancer. That's life.

Just because a dog does "well" on Eukanuba or Pedigree doesn't necessarily mean they're eating as good as they could.... but it also doesn't mean they're going to be unhealthy dogs and die young either necessarily. I personally would never feed it because I don't agree with the ingredients, and I don't like the amount of recalls it has, etc, but those are my personal feelings that I've researched heavily. That's not to say Jackson doesn't get to enjoy a little Cesar wet food every now and then, or a Milk Bone, I just do it in moderation... just like people.

You gotta do for your dogs what you personally decide is right... but in the end you can't place blame and say 'this dog didn't live as long as this one because it ate better food.' There's too many other factors out there. Do your research, and feed what you feel works best for your dog. Not what someone else says its best for your dog.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

I'm sorry to hear that Bella had problems with her liver! Glad she is okay now. I def know what you mean when you say your yorkies aren't athletes, thats the thought that I had when I was considering switching them to a high-protein diet. Do they really need that much protein? But people do say that they've been eating meat for thousands of years so it's only natural for the.. but yes. after reading your post and others on YT, I've decided that I'll stick with solid gold puppy for now and after one year, then I will reconsider. I've noticed people really stopped feeding Solid Gold around here though. When I was on YT few years back most were feeding Solid Gold. WOnder what happened?

Also, how do you keep your dog from eating from different bowls? I haven't tried but it's hard getting them to eat from their own plate, even though they all have their own. THanks for your response!

I'm not sure about the Solid Gold either...you're right, though, it does seem to be mentioned a whole lot less than before. (As I said, I've been in my liver disease bubble, and have tuned a lot of it out because it doesn't apply to us at all anymore! ) I just want to say very briefly, YES dogs have been meat eaters for thousands of years.....but dogs aren't really carnivorous, they're basically scavengers! (Cats ARE carnivorous.) So, while I would agree that the typical dog/wolf of thousands of years ago probably ate mainly meat, I would argue that it didn't make up his entire diet. (Just a side note, a lot of "grain-free" foods contain a variety of vegetables, and I think that's great! I do believe, though, that dogs have always eaten grain.....one of the reasons so many dogs are allergic to certain grains, like corn, wheat, and soy. The allergy to those grains that many dogs, but not all, have has been genetically handed down to them by their parents. Allergies are developed over time, meaning after long term exposure, and then get passed down. Anyway, I think if you do choose to go grain-free, it would be worth looking at something that included a healthy amount of vegetable matter as well!)

Before I started feeding my girls on separate plates, I honestly didn't believe it would work (which is why I fed them on the same plate for awhile). I was very surprised at how quickly they learned which was their plate! Yes, they both still try to steal food off the other's plate now and then (we've only been feeding them this way for a month or so), but they both KNEW which was there plate after just a day or 2 of feeding them that way. I put their plates in our living room...mostly because we don't have a space for them in the kitchen but also because that's where we spend the majority of our time, so I could monitor them. Right off the bat, I put 2 plates down, about 9-12 inches apart and then set each one in front of the plate I deemed "theirs". (The plates are identical....I just decided that no matter where there plates are, Bella's will always be the one on the left and Maya's will always be the one on the right!) When they would go to the other plate, I would make a verbal correction and put them back in front of theirs. I talk to mine like their people, which I think most of us probably do, so they understand sentences not just commands! I'll say, "Aaah! No, maam, that's not your plate. The other plate is yours!" Usually they look at me like, I don't know what you're talking about, but then they go to their plate and eat. They DO know what I'm talking about, they just like to be innocent! If I put anything high value on their plate, like pumpkin or oatmeal or whatever, I watch them more closely because they'll finish theirs and then try to steal what's left of the other's. I also try to pay attention if one of them is eating because the grass is always greener, so sometimes they'll eat off the other's plate even though their plate is full (kibble, so nothing special.....identical in every way, they just want what the other has...just like kids! They're that way with toys too. There can be 2 of the exact same toy, but they both want the same one, lol!) BUT, it isn't a battle AT ALL....most times they go to their own plate whenever their hungry and eat and leave the other one's plate alone. Pretty amazing that within just a day or so of making sure they understood what I excpect (for them to eat off their own plate), they oblige almost all the time!! I truly expected it to be a nightmare, but it really wasn't at all! At least with my 2, all it took was consistency and correction, so it took paying a LOT of attention for that 1st day or so, but now they just know and I don't have to correct very often at all.

(Sorry I'm so long winded!!!!)

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Britster

Also, want to add that the early research that convinced people of the myth of high protein damaging dog's liver was done on rats which are omnivores and their digestive system works entirely different than dogs which are carnivores. Rat's bodies are not designed to handle high protein the way dogs are. I am not aware of any research on dogs that points to high protein damaging dog's liver. I might be mistaken here, but in addition to using rodents, I believe the source of most of the protein was corn gluten, so it was pretty invalid regarding canines and high protein from meat on two fronts.

I wasn't aware of the liver damage....I only knew about the kidney damage. And there have been a significant amount of dogs that go into renal failure (kidney failure) after switching to a very high protein food....they end up on dialysis and a number of them have died. However, it is thought to have happened because those particular dogs probably already had underlying kidney problems that hadn't been noticed or diagnosed yet. That's a lot of speculation, but for me I'd just want to be sure. I also know a lot of dogs that have done amazingly well on super high protein diets, so I'm not saying that it should be completely off the table for everyone at all!!

Originally Posted by Britster

I've written this before, so I'll copy/paste.

The way I see it, it's just like with people... you have those who live off TV dinners and McDonald's, and you have those who shop all organic, and eat healthy every single day.

People who eat terribly, smoke heavily, etc. can live perfectly normal lives.

Just like the person who exercises, eats excellent and "does everything right" can drop dead at age 30 from a heart attack. Or a person who never smoked a day in their life can die from lung cancer. That's life.

Just because a dog does "well" on Eukanuba or Pedigree doesn't necessarily mean they're eating as good as they could.... but it also doesn't mean they're going to be unhealthy dogs and die young either necessarily. I personally would never feed it because I don't agree with the ingredients, and I don't like the amount of recalls it has, etc, but those are my personal feelings that I've researched heavily. That's not to say Jackson doesn't get to enjoy a little Cesar wet food every now and then, or a Milk Bone, I just do it in moderation... just like people.

You gotta do for your dogs what you personally decide is right... but in the end you can't place blame and say 'this dog didn't live as long as this one because it ate better food.' There's too many other factors out there. Do your research, and feed what you feel works best for your dog. Not what someone else says its best for your dog.

I couldn't agree more!

[LuvTaycieGirl]

Originally Posted by Britster

I've written this before, so I'll copy/paste.

The way I see it, it's just like with people... you have those who live off TV dinners and McDonald's, and you have those who shop all organic, and eat healthy every single day.

People who eat terribly, smoke heavily, etc. can live perfectly normal lives.

Just like the person who exercises, eats excellent and "does everything right" can drop dead at age 30 from a heart attack. Or a person who never smoked a day in their life can die from lung cancer. That's life.

Just because a dog does "well" on Eukanuba or Pedigree doesn't necessarily mean they're eating as good as they could.... but it also doesn't mean they're going to be unhealthy dogs and die young either necessarily. I personally would never feed it because I don't agree with the ingredients, and I don't like the amount of recalls it has, etc, but those are my personal feelings that I've researched heavily. That's not to say Jackson doesn't get to enjoy a little Cesar wet food every now and then, or a Milk Bone, I just do it in moderation... just like people.

You gotta do for your dogs what you personally decide is right... but in the end you can't place blame and say 'this dog didn't live as long as this one because it ate better food.' There's too many other factors out there. Do your research, and feed what you feel works best for your dog. Not what someone else says its best for your dog.

This is the best advice out there! When I joined YT Taycie was on Small breed Blue buffalo. After joining and reading so much from others and their particular views on food, I decided to do my own research.

I went to barnes and nobles bought many books on dog nutrition and spent HOURS in the local library as well. I then started to switch Taycie over to a new food. We have tried Acana, The Honest Kichen, Natures Variety.

Honestly, what I read makes sense, I do believe dogs need meat. But sadly since no two dogs are alike, Taycie can not handle high protein/ fat.

I would have not only runny loose diaherra, but mucasy as well. Not to mention I could HEAR her tummy grumble! One day she pooped 8 times in one day! I finally said this is enough!! After many visits with the vet and speaking with nutrionisits I put her back on her old BB food. It worked so well for us in the past and it was my last shot before perscription food which I wasn't to keen on.. and EVERYTHING went back to normal in about 3 days after months of major stomach upsets.

I finally decided that Blue Buffalo works for Taycie and is a decent,holisitc food and many pets do ok on it. I had to come to terms with my reading and research and although I wanted high protein, moderate fat, grain free, it didn't work for us.

Now maybe later down the road I may try a switch again. Who knows? I think if I did I would go the premade raw route but I think for now I will give her a break!

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by LuvTaycieGirl

[/COLOR]



This is the best advice out there! When I joined YT Taycie was on Small breed Blue buffalo. After joining and reading so much from others and their particular views on food, I decided to do my own research.

I went to barnes and nobles bought many books on dog nutrition and spent HOURS in the local library as well. I then started to switch Taycie over to a new food. We have tried Acana, The Honest Kichen, Natures Variety.

Honestly, what I read makes sense, I do believe dogs need meat. But sadly since no two dogs are alike, Taycie can not handle high protein/ fat.

I would have not only runny loose diaherra, but mucasy as well. Not to mention I could HEAR her tummy grumble! One day she pooped 8 times in one day! I finally said this is enough!! After many visits with the vet and speaking with nutrionisits I put her back on her old BB food. It worked so well for us in the past and it was my last shot before perscription food which I wasn't to keen on.. and EVERYTHING went back to normal in about 3 days after months of major stomach upsets.

I finally decided that Blue Buffalo works for Taycie and is a decent,holisitc food and many pets do ok on it. I had to come to terms with my reading and research and although I wanted high protein, moderate fat, grain free, it didn't work for us.

Now maybe later down the road I may try a switch again. Who knows? I think if I did I would go the premade raw route but I think for now I will give her a break!

I just wanna say that there is NOTHING wrong with BB....it's a good quality food! A lot of people would say it's not the best quality, but those people are proponents of high protein, grain-free diets. Besides the grain, which I'm personally completely fine with, BB is a great food!! If it were me, I wouldn't ever put her through all that again, unless she starts not being able to tolerate the BB. There's no reason to change if she's doing well on it. But, that's just my opinion!

[LuvTaycieGirl]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

I just wanna say that there is NOTHING wrong with BB....it's a good quality food! A lot of people would say it's not the best quality, but those people are proponents of high protein, grain-free diets. Besides the grain, which I'm personally completely fine with, BB is a great food!! If it were me, I wouldn't ever put her through all that again, unless she starts not being able to tolerate the BB. There's no reason to change if she's doing well on it. But, that's just my opinion!

I completly agree! I like the food and I really like the ingredients as well! I think alot may feel it is too grain heavy or not enough protein, but I can't feed the other anyways! I just switched because I let to much reading get the best of me. And what is really important is finding a food that you feel good about and what WORKS for them! That is what I had to learn! Yes.. my plans are not to switch for a VERY LONG time!

[Britster]

I think Blue Buffalo is one of the best foods at Petsmart -- it's one of the only foods, besides Wellness probably, that I'd feed from Petsmart! Although the recalls have made me nervous.

I'm not totally against grains... I think there ARE "good" grains. I just don't think they necessarily do anything for a dogs diet, but that doesn't mean they're bad for their diet either. And a "grainfree" label on a packaging doesn't mean much to me. MANY companies are jumping on the grain-free bandwagon and instead of grains, they fill it with potatoes... there is no difference to me!

I never only look at protein levels, or fat levels, I always look at each ingredient, and the order it's listed, and everything else! Nobody can by one thing. For example, just because one food has 35% protein and another also has 35% protein and the dog does bad on both foods... it doesn't mean that the dog can't tolerate 35% protein. It was probably some ingredients that didn't agree with them.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Britster

I think Blue Buffalo is one of the best foods at Petsmart -- it's one of the only foods, besides Wellness probably, that I'd feed from Petsmart! Although the recalls have made me nervous.

I'm not totally against grains... I think there ARE "good" grains. I just don't think they necessarily do anything for a dogs diet, but that doesn't mean they're bad for their diet either. And a "grainfree" label on a packaging doesn't mean much to me. MANY companies are jumping on the grain-free bandwagon and instead of grains, they fill it with potatoes... there is no difference to me!

I never only look at protein levels, or fat levels, I always look at each ingredient, and the order it's listed, and everything else! Nobody can by one thing. For example, just because one food has 35% protein and another also has 35% protein and the dog does bad on both foods... it doesn't mean that the dog can't tolerate 35% protein. It was probably some ingredients that didn't agree with them.

It's so odd to me that Petsmart has such a crappy food selection (with the exceptions of BB and now Wellness, which is a pretty new addition of theirs), while Petco's selection is pretty decent really.

I think grains (and veggies!!) are good fiber, and they offer a few vitamins and minerals too. And for a liver dog, like my Bella, fiber serves an even more important role in helping to pull toxins out of her...the fiber can bind to the toxins in the intestines so that they can be partially eliminated instead of absorbed. Potatoes, while not the best choice for most dogs especially when trying to feed less filler and more quality ingredients, are a highly digestible fiber for dogs, as are rice and pasta, oddly enough! They are actually GOOD for Bella, while for other dogs I would agree they would mostly be filler.

I would definitely agree with you about percentages.....I read every ingredient of everything I give my girls. And as a general rule, if I haven't read the ingredients, they don't get whatever it is! Trust me, they have plenty of good/acceptable options for treats....they never go without!! Now, if I'd only read all the ingredients of everything I ate I'd probably be in better shape

[boopster]

OK -- so while I digest all this (no pun intended) I have another question. Somewhere I read that runny eyes can be the result of a food allergy. Is that true or did I imagine it? I thought someone posted about particular foods helping eyes to be less runny.

I agree that it does come down to the individual dog's constitution. Just like in humans. While many kinds of fish are considered healthy eating, I'm allergic to all seafood and shellfish and have to be extremely careful. While George is lactose intolerant and I could drink milk all day long and be perfectly fine.

Once again, thank you everyone for sharing all this info. It's great to be able to ask a question and get so much help from people who genuinely care about these little dogs!

[LDMomma]

Originally Posted by boopster

OK -- so while I digest all this (no pun intended) I have another question. Somewhere I read that runny eyes can be the result of a food allergy. Is that true or did I imagine it? I thought someone posted about particular foods helping eyes to be less runny.

I'm not sure if it is an allergy but I have noticed that mine have runny eyes on certain foods but not others.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by boopster

OK -- so while I digest all this (no pun intended) I have another question. Somewhere I read that runny eyes can be the result of a food allergy. Is that true or did I imagine it? I thought someone posted about particular foods helping eyes to be less runny.

Your Tallulah is only 5 months old (tomorrow actually....Happy 5 month bday Tallulah!!! ), and my experience with both of mine has been that their eyes teared more when they were puppies, and then even more while they were teething (Maya is almost 6 months old now and her tearing has slowed way down). Bella tears some still, but her face isn't wet typically...she does tear more when my allergies are bothering me (so something must be in the air) or when it's dusty or even sometimes when it's really windy. Both she and Maya had wet little faces a lot of the time until they were closing in on 6 months or so. SOOOO, give her a chance....she may "outgrow" it. If not, it could be a food allergy, or it could just be environmental. I would start by keeping the carpets vacuumed and floor swept...these little guys are all the way down there so dust and allergens will bother them way more than they would a bigger dog or us. Another thing that could help is to fill her water bowls with distilled DRINKING water (they make distilled water that's NOT for drinking, so make sure it says drinking water on the bottle!) instead of tap water. My girls drink Nursery Water....it's distilled drinking water with fluoride (like is found in tap water) and it's for mother's to use in formula instead of tap water. I've heard that distilled water can sometimes help with tearing....not sure if that's what helped us or not?? Maya still teared a lot even with that, though, so maybe not?? A lot of YT'ers swear by it. I just continue to give them the nursery water because of Bella's liver.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by boopster

OK -- so while I digest all this (no pun intended) I have another question. Somewhere I read that runny eyes can be the result of a food allergy. Is that true or did I imagine it? I thought someone posted about particular foods helping eyes to be less runny.

I agree that it does come down to the individual dog's constitution. Just like in humans. While many kinds of fish are considered healthy eating, I'm allergic to all seafood and shellfish and have to be extremely careful. While George is lactose intolerant and I could drink milk all day long and be perfectly fine.

Once again, thank you everyone for sharing all this info. It's great to be able to ask a question and get so much help from people who genuinely care about these little dogs!

Jackson had a ton of tears on Wellness Super5Mix (w/ grains) and Fromm Surf and Turf (w/o grains). I'm almost positive the food was the culprit because I did a little 'test' and would feed Fromm for a few weeks, and then take him off of it and within a week, the tearing would be good. Then I'd put him back on it, and the tearing would eventually come back pretty bad again! But who knows. Part of it could be environmental as well. Jackson's eyes tear when it's windy outside sometimes, I guess just like humans.