protein question, how much is to much

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Calcium and phosphorus are in a certain proportion in dog food (usually about 1.2:1). If they aren't balanced correctly with each other, serious medical problems can results. More meat means more phosphorus. If the food is AAFCO approved, they are balanced. If you want to feed less phosphorus for whatever reason, then I guess it would need to be a food lower in meat content.

Thank you for the info. Is the AAFCO stamp of approval usually on the dog food bag?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Maximo

Thank you for the info. Is the AAFCO stamp of approval usually on the dog food bag?

The only thing I don't like/confuses me about AAFCO is that even the worst of the worst foods are AAFCO approved, so to me, it doesn't really mean much.... IAMS, Pedigree, etc, all that junk. So being 'AAFCO' approved doesn't mean anything to me. I feel like AAFCO makes the very LEAST standards that should be in dog food. I don't think being stamped 'AAFCO' approved makes a good worthy of feeding.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Maximo

Thank you for the info. Is the AAFCO stamp of approval usually on the dog food bag?

Yes it is.

I know that the "bad" foods are AAFCO approved. And that's just it, they have met minimal standards. They aren't really concerned with ingredients. They are concerned with guaranteed analysis, etc. If a food is not AAFCO approved, then nobody has looked at the the vitamin content of the food and/or done feeding trials. Vitamins out of balance in dog food can lead to heart, blood, and urinary issues along with a lot of other things. It is nothing to mess around with. When Ellie is on a homecooked diet for maintenance, even her food meets AAFCO guidelines as it should.

[Maximo]

If I am feeding kibble that has the right balance of nutrients, is it possible to upset the balance with homecooked supplements like peas and yogurt in small amounts?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Yes it is.

I know that the "bad" foods are AAFCO approved. And that's just it, they have met minimal standards. They aren't really concerned with ingredients. They are concerned with guaranteed analysis, etc. If a food is not AAFCO approved, then nobody has looked at the the vitamin content of the food and/or done feeding trials. Vitamins out of balance in dog food can lead to heart, blood, and urinary issues along with a lot of other things. It is nothing to mess around with. When Ellie is on a homecooked diet for maintenance, even her food meets AAFCO guidelines as it should.

I got ya! I was a little confused over the whole thing. Thanks for the info.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Maximo

If I am feeding kibble that has the right balance of nutrients, is it possible to upset the balance with homecooked supplements like peas and yogurt in small amounts?

When homecooked exceeds about 10% dry matter, there could be a concern. A small amount of unbalanced, homecooked food is fine. Feeding a whole bunch of extra meat or whatever could potentially upset the balance.

[spiritwings1202]

Originally Posted by Britster

I personally prefer to feed a grain-free food, because domestic dogs are taxonomically the same species, and physiologically and anatomically the same and actually share 99.8% of the same DNA as wolves. Size and appearance are in the less than 2% differences. Therefore, I think they highly benefit from a higher protein, more meat filled food. But I think it depends on your dog, what they can tolerate, and how much activity they get every day. Jackson's a pretty active dog and gets a 35% protein food, with around 16% fat (Acana) and it works really well for him. He's been on grain-free since 6 months old and done soooo wonderfully on it. Many people feed their dogs raw food now as well and get amazing benefits. Anyways, it's just my personal preference to feed grain free, low card, meat protein rich foods. Ultimately, though, I think it's what works best for you and your dog. I've done alot of research and have finally settled that this works best for Jackson!

DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs here's a good link

Thanks Brit for that site it is very informative

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

When homecooked exceeds about 10% dry matter, there could be a concern. A small amount of unbalanced, homecooked food is fine. Feeding a whole bunch of extra meat or whatever could potentially upset the balance.

Thank you. I will remind Grandpa to not overdo the side dishes.

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by Maximo

If I am feeding kibble that has the right balance of nutrients, is it possible to upset the balance with homecooked supplements like peas and yogurt in small amounts?

Contrary to the warnings from pet food manufacturers you will not unbalance a commercial diet by adding a moderate percentage of fresh foods. One should be able to replace about 25% of the diet with fresh foods. When you start to feed more than that then it becomes more important to feed variety and proper proportions. If you want to feed 50 % or more as fresh food then you should add organs along with other foods and you should consider adding calcium if you are not feeding bones. The more fresh food you feed then obviously the greater the importance of variety and proportions as well as calcium becomes.

Good foods to add to a commercial diet include eggs and meat (raw or cooked), canned fish with bones (jack mackerel, salmon, sardines), yogurt or kefir, cottage cheese, and healthy leftovers. Raw meaty bones can also be fed although it’s best if they’re not combined with kibble in the same meal. You can add veggies and fruit in small amounts, but commercial foods are already high in carbohydrates, so there is little benefit in adding more. Carbohydrates that are often 50 % or more of dry dog foods are harder to digest than animal proteins and can lead to inflammation in the body. It's better to add foods from animal sources rather than plant foods (grains (wouldn't recommend adding at all to a commercial diet), legumes and vegetables) since commercial diets are usually high in carbohydrates(dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates).

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by Britster

The only thing I don't like/confuses me about AAFCO is that even the worst of the worst foods are AAFCO approved, so to me, it doesn't really mean much.... IAMS, Pedigree, etc, all that junk. So being 'AAFCO' approved doesn't mean anything to me. I feel like AAFCO makes the very LEAST standards that should be in dog food. I don't think being stamped 'AAFCO' approved makes a good worthy of feeding.

I totally agree. Even following a diet that has been evaluated using a spreadsheet and compared to the AAFCO and/or NRC standards does not ensure the diet will be nutritionally complete. Just as with our own diets what’s considered "balanced", "good" is always changing. The nutrtional levels established by AAFCO are based on older guidelines published by the NRC in 1985, AND AS OF YET, have not been updated following the release of newer NRC standards in 2006.

A good example of how these standards can change is the discovery in 1987 that cats were dying of heart failure due to a lack of adequate taurine in cat food. Previously, the NRC did not recognize taurine as an essential nutrient for cats, and no one knew how much cats required. Now, newer research shows that taurine may also be conditionally essential in the dog’s diet, though there are as yet no standards requiring it. Ongoing research reveals more all the time, but this is an endless task.

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by Maximo

Thank you for all of the info Melcakes.

In dog foods, what are the primary sources of phosphorus? Which ingredients should we avoid?

If you want to feed less phosphorus (although they are essential minerals that healthy dogs need for health maintenance), but lets say for those dogs with kidney disease you want to reduce phosphorus then the foods highest in phosphorus include: bones, dairy products, fish (with bones), organ meats, and egg yolks. That does not mean not to feed these foods at all, as they are an important component of a healthy diet, but to feed in moderation. Feeding an excess of phosphates is also not healthy (e.g. all meat diet). Be wary of the amount of phosphorus in grains and vegetables. Grains like wheat, and vegetables like sweet potatoes and winter squashes are good choices. White rice is also lower in phosphorus than brown rice. Beef has less phosphorus than chicken. Lamb and Turkey are in between. Green Tripe is said to be a great food for dogs with kidney failure, as it is low in phosphorus and is highly palatable to dogs.

Optimum phosphorus ranges (According to Source: Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th edition ) % are measured on a Dry Matter Basis

Small/Medium Breed Puppies (0.6 - 1.3%)
Large Breed Puppies (0.6-1.1%)
Adult Dogs (0.4 - 0.9%)
Older Dogs >6 yrs (0.5-0.7%)

AAFCO Minimum Phosphorus/Protein/Fat Levels (%Dry Matter Basis)

Growth/Repro. Minimum
Protein: 22%
Fat: 8%
Phosphorus 0.8%

Adult Maintenance Minimum
Protein: 18%
Fat: 5%
Phosphorus: 0.5%

Max. Phospohrus (1.6% Dry Matter Basis)

[Maximo]

Thank you again Melcakes for all of the info.