purina EN questionable ingredients?
 

my dog's vet is recommending the purina EN wet formula. however i noticed the following ingredients which can be toxic, especially for a dog with IBD and digestive issues.
Copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex and sodium selenite; these ingredients can be toxic and cause vomiting and are not meant for long term use. however the vet said she might be on this diet for a long term if not her life.
can anyone please tell me more about these ingredients, why are they added to this formula and how safe are they? thanks

I cannot comment on the ingredients. The only thing I will say is that I had a pup who had multiple medical issues including gall bladder problems and he was on Purina EN for the last three years of his life without any problems.

ok thanks for sharing.

1) Menadione is a synthetic version of vitamin K. Menadione or vitamin K is not really a vitamin but a component of bacterial digestion. When natural vitamin K is absorbed into the body it has a specific pathway by which it is absorbed and utilized, not to mention that it is normally a fat-soluble compound. Synthetic vitamin K is not only not fat-soluble, but created to be water-soluble. It also does not follow the same absorbtion mechanism which its natural version does. Which means a lot less absorbtion and utilization by the organs that need it. If you feed your dog fish, fish meal, green plants, or liver, than you have got a natural vitamin K supplement. Here is a list of just some of the issues surrounding this pet food additive:
causes cytotoxicity in liver cells
causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions
considerably weakens the immune system
possible mutagenic effects
damages the natural vitamin K cycle
has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested)
causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses
disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis
is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K
builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives
causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes
causes allergic reactions and eczema

2) Copper sulfate is used in dog food in very small amounts. It is added to prevent anemia...?! Well, if you are using a dog food with high quality complete proteins why would you need this ingredient? My concern is that its main use is as a toxic pesticide. Cornell Definitely would not want this in my dogs food.

3)Sodium Selenite is another one of those ingredients added into dog food because there has been not enough high quality complete proteins added into the food. Sources of this essential compound are found in fish, meat, and poultry, so why it would be needed if the dog food had the correct amount of complete proteins in the first place is beyond me!
Just like the others mentioned above, Sodium selenite and selenate can be toxic in high doses by effecting the pups blood, liver, and muscles. The whole sodium selenite puzzle is huge effecting animals that graze on plants in areas where this compound is naturally occurring, to the feed that is feed them from plants growing in saturated soils, finally to our pets where we are now adding this compound into their food as well. Toxic build-up is a reasonable conclusion for our pets due to this vastly-re-occurring compound in their specific food chain.

My conclusion in discussing these types of pet food add-ins, is why not just feed your pup more complete high quality proteins? This would eliminate the need for, and the problems associated with these ingredients.

Just a reminder, vets are not nutrionists, nor have they been significantly trained in the field. I would definitely suggest one especially if your pup is having difficulties.
Hope this helps.:rolleyes:

Actually some vets are nutritionists!

Do you have the link to this, or is it your own information? Thanks! :)

You are right there are some board certified vets that do practice small animal medicine and nutrition, and if you have found an efficient one I would stay with her. The majority of them however, are in large animal operations.

In answer to your second query, I have included a link within the text, however, here are some of my files with which contain additional resources on the subject.
Also some of the links might not be accessible to non-members, sorry. Hope this helps in your research.

Sodium selenate
Sodium selenate
Sodium selenate

Menadione
Menadione
Menadione
Menadione

Thank you!! :)

Here is my experience with Purina EN. We adopted an approx 7-8 year old yorkie almost 6 years ago. (so she's about 13 or 14 now). Tina was a mommy dog from a puppy mill and was diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis a few months after we adopted her.

We've managed her pancreatitis with a low fat diet. We gave her a home made diet for most of time, but still have had flare ups every 12-18 months. After her last flare up, the vet suggested we try out a few brands of the prescription food. She gave us a few samples, dry and canned, and the only one that Tina would eat at all is the dry Purina EN. We've had her on that for about 8 months. (I add water about 15 mins before serving to soften it up) Her pancreatitis has not re-appeared. The only draw back has been that her skin has become flaky. When I talked to the vet about it, she recommended supplement her food with a bit of fish oil.

I did some research on this site, and another member whose dog has chronic pancreatitis recommended California Natural Lamb and Rice Small Bites. In comparing the labels, the CN has about the same protein level, and even lower fat, which is very good for pancreatitis. So I've been mixing her food about 30% of the CN and 70% Purina EN, with the hopes that the CN will help her coat, also.

In our case, I know there may be some risks associated with giving Tina such a low quality food, such as Purina EN, and especially since it contains some questionable ingredients. But pancreatitis flare ups are extremely painful, and can even be fatal. It's so important to keep this under control. So I feel that whatever risks there are with the Purina are offset by the reduction in her symptoms. Tina is an older dog, so this is an easier call to make.

Why did your vet recommend the Purina EN? Does your dog also have a chronic condition?

thanks for the info; but right now what choice do i have; my dog has ibd and she needs highly digestive food that doesnt have corn; if i get normal high quality food it will be hard for her to digest; i really feel stuck here; dont know what to do.

thanks for sharing ur story
yes my dog has severe chronic IBD; this is her 5th or 6th flare up. she vomits pure blood; he did the endoscopy and biopsy to diagnose her and he said her intestines look like fireworks. poor baby
so he put her on iams low residue and prednisone; while on prednisone she did fine for the past 2 months; but when we decreased it to every 2 days; she had another episode yesterday. so he suggested the purina EN since it doesnt have corn.
she's allergic to few ingredients; chicken, rice, corn, lamb, and soy
so the purina EN looks good right now and i am hoping that it will help her. i am waiting for them to order it.
she's back on prednisone again so we wont find out for a while if it's good or not.
the point is we need to find a food that won't flare her up without her being dependent on prednisone to bring down the inflamation.

by the way did your dog also itch on that food?

No, I haven't noticed any itching. Just flakes under her fur. I volunteer at our local and after seeing alot of animals with flaky skin, I asked the staff about it. They said it often happens when an animal has had poor nutrition, so that's what made me suspicious about the Purina EN.

My heart goes out to you and your baby, her case sounds so frightening!

I hope that she likes the canned Purina EN and that it will give her relief. (The dry version still has corn, so that won't be an alternative for her.) It's certainly worth a try. Talk to your vet about supplements that would be safe for her. Though vets often don't know alot about nutrition, you have a more urgent problem on your hands right now, so I'd follow the vet's suggestions until the inflammation is down and your baby feels better. Keep us posted.

yes she's currently on bene bac pet gel; but the vet said to switch to purina fortiflora; it might be better. is this true?

I am not privy to the medical issues surrounding your particular case like your vet is; nor do I have a phd in Vet Med. However, I think that supplementation with probiotics is an absolute must with cases involving ibd. I have read numerous cases where this therapy has achieved excellent results.
Probiotics
#2

#3

#4

I would definitley try the fortiflora as it too has many positive research articles surrounding its use.
Fortiflora

Have you tried the the prescription royal canin limited ingredient? they have potato and duck, potato and venison, potato and whitefish, and potato and rabbit.

i think, back when i worked for a general practice in 2004-2006 ish, this food was made by a company called IVD (bought out by royal canin) and the vet i worked for prescribed it for IBD patients.

my dex was on ivd whitefish and potato when he came down with pancreatitis :( he was also on dd salmon and potato when he relapsed a year later with ibd so we tied his pancreatitis to ibd and vet said some dogs cannot tolerate white potato diets. There are some that feel white potato is inflammatory food yet sweet potato is not due to them being in two different nightshade families.

Each dog is different though just going by my experience as all 3 of my dogs vomit up steamed white potato as well. I use to pill my dd with white potato for a few years then she had an incident with metacam and now every time i try she vomits it up :( I have to pill her for soloxine and temarilp with Cod now.

Exactly what I was saying. Everyone has different opinions...and it can be confusing as hell. :(

yep and this is a VERY tough case situation :( Diet is going to be key in helping this little girl to get her on lowest dose of steroids as possible

I am not sure if i missed it but has vet talked about tylan powder at all? Some ibd dogs do well on this and better than steroid use - just asking as did not see answer about it on the other thread. I know she is a picky eater so that may not work as it is bitter tasting and she will have to make her own capsules

I just think a hydrolized diet where protein is broken down further may be best and two of us on the other thread have done well on hydrolized soy diets with dogs with similar situations.

I have no experience with EN myself it was never mentioned by internal medicine specialist she only recommended ultra z/d, dd diets, and purina ha when dex was so sick. He got sick on the dd diet so we went to purina ha. He did great on ultra z/d too which is also a hydrolized diet but he itched like crazy on it.

I can only suggest based on my experience but i was at the end of my rope too after a year of this off and on hospitalization

the foods dex ate were in the following order as follows

IVD white fish and potato - hospitalized for pancreatitis

I/D canned wet -relapsed after 5 days went in hospital for plasma transfusion due to pancreatitis

ground lowfat turkey and rice - lowest fat i could find - back in hospital for bacterial infection which can happen after pancreatitis

Came out on ultra z/d food - did great for 4 months but itched so we thought it would be ok to put him on

DD salmon and potato - was on it for 2 months back in the hospital with an ibd attack no pancreatitis per cpli

Came out on Purina HA and ims said last try before she scopes him to determine ibd for sure but she is 99% sure it is ibd causing all the issues but she will not prescribe meds without firm diagnosis bc steroids can set off pancreas.

Since on purina ha no issues other than like 3 vomitting attacks - 2 from a single tiny pea, one from a piece of yam the size of my pinky nail as i pilled dd with steamed yam and gave him a piece BIG MISTAKE. He gets nothing but purina HA

Now Dex never had diarhea and never had bloody vomit but you can see getting the right diet is key

also wanted to add she said if purina ha does not work I have to homecook and referred me to WWW.BALANCEIT.COM website as she was frustrated as much as i was as to why we could not get him balanced :( She is so happy he is doing so well and says to this day he was one of her toughest cases she had :(

Kalina82 your experience in the field has been sorely missed here at YT! Your knowledgable information is always given freely to whoever needs assistance.

Ladyjane, I am with you! When it comes to recommending a specific food for someones else pet, confusion abounds. Yet, your intellectual insight is always a source of education, for both novice and scholar.

Dwerten, where do I begin...your poor little pup! You have gone through so much with your little one(s) and yet you bring to the table a commitment to educate and enlighten others through your vast array of knowledgable experiences.

I sit here thankful, for all the education, research, and heartfelt encouragement that all of you, and many others here, bring to the YT family. It is a joy to be able to discuss these topics with others who are so devoted to the sharing of education in promotion of our pups health. :thumbup:

Now off to my finals...:rolleyes: have a wonderful evening ladies.:D

That was so kind and thanks for all your info and insight as well as sometimes with a tough case it takes a team of people to narrow things down.

Trust me I wish I did not know any of this as that would mean my dogs would have had no issues and i could just go play games on here and look at pics lollll

[QUOTE=dwerten;3133024]yep and this is a VERY tough case situation :( Diet is going to be key in helping this little girl to get her on lowest dose of steroids as possible

I am not sure if i missed it but has vet talked about tylan powder at all? Some ibd dogs do well on this and better than steroid use - just asking as did not see answer about it on the other thread. I know she is a picky eater so that may not work as it is bitter tasting and she will have to make her own capsules

he didnt mention tylan powder
and u are right; it will be hell giving her the powder; she's very picky and barely eats. she's eating now because of the prednisone; but once this is decreased her appetite takes a dive. so i am suffering with her on every level.:eek:

thanks everyone for sticking with me and ava; i wish i can find an answer or a good diet. i keep looking at the websites to see if i can find a good food; but they all have so many ingredients. the only one that has only one or few is evangers dog food. any feedback about it?
thanks

[quote=ally173;3133305]yeah i remember her being pick :( the pred definitely increases their appetite and why i have to measure dd food out as she would eat the whole bag of food in one hour if she could lolll

I think you should at least chat with vet about tylan powder as they have tiny capsules you can make - I have a website as i almost bought the capsule maker myself if i had to go that route with dd after this past years nightmare. My friend on here Cyndi and izzy she bought it and uses it for izzy who has ibd. She is not on here much anymore though :(

I have heard of it but not for ibd dogs

the ones i have heard for ibd are the ones below my ims gave me options, homecooking and natural balance venison and sweet potato.

do you know if oatmeal is easier to digest than rice. would it be better for her

I will ask on k9kitchen and post answer

what is the difference between Highly digestible [COLOR=green ! important][COLOR=green ! important]diets[/COLOR][/COLOR] vs hydrolyzed diets?
ie purian Ha and purian EN

thanks

My Ben has IBD and my Rico has grain allergies along with epilepsy.

We give no table food of any sort. That is the biggest help for his condition. Now, he rarely has flares (only if he gets stressed during long car trips, etc). They are now on the GRAIN FREE Taste of The Wild, the high prairie forumula. I don't like the Hill's diets and others that contain BHA, BHT as my yorkie has allergies that triggers his seizures.

We had issues lowering the prednisone dose and had to step back up several times and just give it a few more months. Then try lowering it again. Finally 2yrs later he was off, except when he flares (rarely).

thanks
u see each dog reacts differently to the food
ava will have reactions to these in the TOW "lamb meal, chicken meal, egg product, sweet potatoes, peas, potatoes"
wow 2 years on prednisone; any other meds?
can u tell me more about ur experience with prednisone; so i can have an idea. thanks