Conflicted over raw food diet and commercial
 

I've been reading about holistic diets for dogs and I'm so confused, my head is spinning. Dr. Karen Becker advocates raw feeding,

"If I were a pediatrician and a mother told me, "it's just too hard making healthy food everyday for my kid, I'm just going to feed Total cereal everyday, it's 100% nutritionally complete," we'd all feel sorry for her kid. I am a vet, and when people tell me "I've found a really good dry food, I think I'...ll feed it everyday for the rest of my pets life," why don't we feel equally sad?"

In some places feeding our pups garlic, rice, etc. is condemned. Yet, looking at some of the recipes here in YT forums, these ingredients are okay.

I've got to do something about my little ones. Nini is getting fat and Nicky hates kibble, he runs and hides when I take out the bag :(. Their vet says that the dangers of food poisoning with raw food are great, but Dr. Becker says it's ignorance, food companies pay for vet training, etc.

What I do know is that I grew up with pets. I never saw a bag of kibble in my house, my mom cooked all our dogs' meals, I don't remember any of our dogs ever being sick, and they died old. What gives? I don't know what to do and I'm getting desperate.

I hate having Nicky on drugs, it bothers me to no end, because I know there are side effects to every drug. There's a price to pay for every single drug we take, even an aspirin. I wait until I can't take the head-ache any more to take an aspirin, yet I'm giving Nicky medicine twice a day for stomach upset and I wonder if this can be taken care of naturally, no drugs :confused:
How many of you have gone 'green' with your fur-babies? Is it possible to do it right?

I've been cooking for my dogs since they were puppies. I do use some commercial food in conjunction with home cooked. I tried the raw and it just grossed me out. I was constantly feeling like I had to bleach the areas. I just did not care for raw. My dogs do great on Home cooked food. In fact, the only time they ever get sick is when they eat dog food.

When you homecook, do you still feed the same thing every day? Also, where do you find the recipes?

What are Nicky's medical issues?
What do you mean by "gone green"?

I can only speak for me :), but I don't feel there is really is a "right" or "wrong" way, per se, bc what is right for one dog, could be very wrong for another.

I can say, with a lot of confidence, that I see dogs on YT who thrive on kibble, canned, homecooked, or raw. Some do rotation diets too.

I have fed all of those diets above, and now feed raw (Primal brand).

Considering the argument against feeding your dogs the same food every day, I think it's a weak one, first of all dogs, aren't humans, and a human's relationship with food is very complex; humans socialize with food and use food to show love. Food is a huge part of our lives. Dogs don't have the memory humans have, and aren't thinking of the meal, you made for them last Thursday, they live in the here and now, and definitely have food preferences, but will overlook them, and still love you. Let's not forget you can introduce a new food to a human, and they don't show signs of diarrhea, where dogs typically do. I don't trust any website that doesn't give the cons of the suggested food, and it's not credible to give the cons, and have a point-by-point argument why the disadvantage is completely nonsense.

The truth I believe is there is a disadvantage to EVERY food you choose, and you have to decide how important this disadvantage is to you. The disadvantage to me, with raw is that it is relatively new, and hasn't been clinically tested. Some dogs do very well on it for a short time, but how about long term, and could there be difference between how athletic sporting dogs handle raw and how more sedimentary dogs hand raw? We know from human studies there is a great deal of difference how the two groups handle high protein and high cholesterol. How about safety, companies have to be even more diligent with how they handle raw it and precautions they take. Will you be able to check recall lists diligently to know if your chosen food is having a problem? Kibble manufactures have problems too, but just because their food is cooked, it cuts down drastically the number of problems concerning safety. Sometimes the old fashioned way of making a list of pros and cons, and deciding what is best for you and your dog at this time is best way to decide, but keep an open mind for when you get new information. The most important thing to remember is that dogs do well on a variety of diets, and there is no one "best" food for all of them, you need to find a "good" food that works for you and your dog. I think sometimes we want the best, when good is good enough. Dogs with special needs or allergies have a tougher time, and that's where all these food choices we have becomes more important.

I do follow the same diet every day for my dogs. I make it in large batches and freeze it in ice cube trays so that I can just take out the cubes and defrost them. I calculate out their daily requirements so I know how many cubes each dog needs. When they get frozen, I pop them all out of the cube trays and put them into vaccum sealed bags and I take them out daily as I need them. I then add my supplements fresh at every meal. I never freeze or heat food with any supplements pre added. I do give them additional things like blueberries, bananas, other veggies as snacks but for the most part, their basic diet is the same. It has worked for me, I am much happier with home cooked than with commercial for my dogs, but I have used commercial diets in conjunction with home cooking (although that is coming to a screetching halt now that Barney has had two bouts of pancreatitis due to commerical food). My dogs have always thrived and this is true for Barney :aimeeyork and Daisy :aimeeyorkwho, despite their puppy mill beginnings and some congenital issues, barely look like they are almost 10. Can't say the same for Teddy :aimeeyork, he is thriving too but he comes from a more distinguished pedigree (excuse us!) and a great breeder and he is so young that it's hard to draw conclusions regarding diet.:confused:

The choice to home cook or not is individual and has many factors to consider. There are plenty of dogs out there eating dog food who are living to ripe old ages and having few health problems.

As for home cooking, there are many ways to do it. If you decide to home cook, I will echo what other posters on YT have said - yes, you can find recipes but I'd get a diet formulated for your dog by a vet nutritionist so you know you're covering all of your particular dog's nutritional needs in terms of nutrients and in terms of calories and that your dog's medical history and current medical status are part of the analysis.

Good luck.

Do some research and searches on prey model raw. You will be enlightened. :D

Nancy, I agree with you that there are disadvantages to every diet, and particularly with raw diets when handled or fed improperly. Most long time raw feeders see no negative health impacts on either their dogs' or their own lives. Obviously because raw food is.. well, raw :rolleyes:, there is an increased risk of bacterial infection. However, this risk is almost negligible to both dogs and humans if the owner is careful and takes the proper precautions. Dogs are designed to and are fully capable of handling the bacteria in raw meat. There is also the risk of quality control in pet food companies, but that is a risk you have to take with ANY company, raw or not. Cooking can kill some bacteria, making kibble at a lower risk of harboring food borne bacteria but after 2007, I have trouble trusting any commercial pet food, period. I would be willing to bet that more animals died during that salmonella outbreak than pets fed on a raw diet, ever. That is just a risk each individual pet owner will have to weigh for themselves.

I also want to address the claim that raw diets are relatively new. Raw diets are absolutely NOT new. First, raw diets have existed since the beginning of dogs since wolves in the wild eat raw meat. It is widely believed that raw diets are a fad that have just come about within the recent decades. This is untrue. Commercial pet foods have only been around for the past 100 year, making kibble relatively new. What were domesticated animals fed before the invention of kibble? Homecooked and raw diets. Dogs have been around much longer than kibble has and their successful existence means that they were doing something right in the thousands of years before commercial pet food. There have been many accounts of owners with parents or grandparents who fed their dogs raw that lived long, healthful lives. I don't know what you mean by relatively new, but Jack Lalanne, a fitness expert in the 50s, fed his dog raw!
There many not be any current scientific studies that prove that raw diets are beneficial, but that doesn't mean that there isn't scientific proof! Dogs are anatomically, physiologically, and genetically engineered to eat raw meat. That is scientifically proven. That combined with millions of years of evolution as well the physical evidence provided by the outstanding health of my dogs... well, I don't need much more proof than that! Most scientific research is done by pet food companies, as is veterinary "nutritional education". Clearly they would not be interested in funding expensive research studies that could cause detriment to their revenue. To do an extensive study on the advantages and disadvantages of raw diets would require the collaboration of thousands of vets, pets, pet owners, and pets nationwide. Who exactly has the funding to do this? Perhaps someday I'll be wealthy enough to conduct such a study but until then we're left with what we have.

I want to clarify that I am in no way saying that raw is a superior diet and will work for ALL dogs. I personally feel that my dogs thrive on raw and are receiving the best diet possible. Naturally, I want to share the benefits of this wonderful diet with others. I agree 100% with the statement that not every diet will work for every dog and that dogs can thrive on any diet whether it be raw, kibble, canned, or homecooked. It's all about finding what works best for your dog. :)

Just for some fun reading:

The world's oldest raw-fed dog, a 27 year old Australian cattle dog-bull terrier cross.
USATODAY.com - Outback mongrel could be oldest dog

As you can probably tell from my previous post, I am an avid raw feeder! We have been feeding raw since October with spectacular results. My dogs are more energetic, excited to eat their food, and are in wonderful health (confirmed by my vet).

If you are interested in learning about the raw diet, there is a thread in the YT Library with some helpful links.

I have also gained invaluable knowledge from this thread and this thread. The last one has a TON of links for further reading.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions :)

Didn't mean to imply eating raw was new, only that there is no scientific research to show it's long term safety, and yes I'm one of those people who believe in clinical tests and trials. There are several raw foods manufactures; in fact, my guess is more people feed manufactured raw, rather than real raw, especially here on YT. Please, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't feed raw, I'm only saying we don't know enough about it yet to satisfy me. My point is that there are pros and cons with every food choice, and I'm uncomfortable with anyone who suggests their are no cons to their food choice, I just think it means that we don't know enough about it yet. I was only suggesting to the OP, that there will be some realistic negatives to her food choice, and she will have to weigh the good with the bad, and come to a decision on what's right for her dog at this point in his life.

From your post, it seems like you felt I was attacking you. I am so sorry if it came across that way, I was no way trying to argue with you. I just wanted to point out that there are some pretty great benefits to raw and I think sometimes it gets a bad rep from vets/pet food companies/pet owners, etc. I understand that the evidence out there isn't enough to convince some pet owners but we shouldn't let that get in the way of other pet owners being convinced. I too agree that there are negatives to any diet, particularly raw, but for me those negatives are far overshadowed by the positives. Sometimes my enthusiasm can be a little overzealous so I'm deeply sorry if I offended you.

I will say I envy the fact that raw food eaters are so confident in their food choice, I'm not that confident about my food choice at all. My main point of the post was to try to reassure the OP that there may always be some doubts to her choice, finding the right food is no easy task. I always enjoy reading what you have to say, and it wasn't so much that you didn't state the cons, a lot of the websites I read don't state the cons, and when this isn't done, I don't feel like I'm getting a balanced argument.

I found this article to be very enlightening...

Common Myths About Pet Food and Nutrition at Only Natural Pet Store

Your mom was a very smart woman. I have been cooking for Cerise for a month now (since she's been home) only ONCE has she had runny poop and that was over a week ago when I decided to leave her some Wellness kibble out to snack on while I was at work. I had bought the bag before she came home and thought not to waste it...WRONG! I came home that day to the most funky smelling home and soooo much poop :eek: Thank goodness it was all on the potty pad. But she had the runs till the next day and I have not or will not give her any commercial dog food ever again.

I know there are some Yorkie owners that believe in raw but I don't. I believe in cooked food with supplements added. IMO the raw that is being talked about is not the same as an animal eating real raw...which is in the wild. In the wild the prey has blood, skin, fur, all organs and are alive when they are caught. The raw that is so popular is from the grocery store and I am not comfortable with that. Besides a Yorkie is not a wolf and is now so domesticated that some are so picky (like my Cerise) that they don't mind letting you know that they WILL NOT eat, or drink commercial garbage food or nasty tab water. I don't blame them at all :D

I believe homecooking is wonderful for a dog if you can do it. I don't have the time, energy, or patience to do it but I just wanted to add that you can't really blame kibble for making Cerise sick. If her stomach is used to homecooked food, of course you giving her some kibble is probably going to give her the runs. Just like when people change a dogs kibble diet (from one kibble to another...) they often get the runs and upset stomachs. Any quick change in diet will do that.

I don't really believe one diet is better than the other. But I think in the end what works for one person won't work for another and the bottom line is we all (on this forum anyways) want what's best for our pets or we wouldn't even be sitting here discussing it. I don't think there's anything wrong with feeding raw but it just seems like too much work for me personally. I prefer to have kibble to give him. I like grain-free kibbles and ones that are high in their meat content because my dog does the best with those foods.

I understand. The thing was that has been the only time and it stunk so bad :eek: She poops on the pad everyday and it is firm, a small amount and barely has an odor. I have some firends who have small dogs and feed them commercial food and always complain about the smell and amount of poop. But I do understand everyone is not a fan of cooking :) I do it once a week and freeze enough to last for a while, plus I LOVE to cook.

My 4 lb yorkie is a very selective eater and had seizures that we found out to be diet related. I switched him to raw and they went away but it caused him to throw up quite often. I found a kibble caled Orijen that uses fresh regional ingredients to produce Biologically Appropriate foods for dogs and he has been GREAT on it. It has won pet food of the year and I am so grateful I found it. In addition to that I give him dehydrated wild caught salmon, sweet potatoes, broccoli and green beans. It gives him some variety and he absolute goes nuts for all of them. Hope this helps...

Again, not trying to argue, but I will stick up for raw when I feel it's necessary. The raw I feed DOES have blood, skin, fur, and organs. Yorkies, as well as all dogs, ARE wolves. They are taxonomically the same species with the domesticated dog as a subspecies of the wolf. They are also physiologically and anatomically the same, sharing 99.8% of the same DNA. The differences in appearance and size are accounted for in that less than 2%. I am not saying raw is better than homecooking but I wanted to point out the discrepancies posted.

Yes, dogs are related back to the Wolf, but a yorkie is not a wolf. This breed is so domesticated that if you were to put one out on it's own it could not survive without a human. They will not hunt down prey, kill and live many years like a wolf in the wilderness. Lets get real here. I have not seen any raw dog food sold with skin, fur, blood and organs. I see raw meat ground up mixed with other ingredients and frozen. I see and read of people going to the grocery store and getting butchered meat to give their dogs a raw diet. That is not what a wolf eats :) I am sure that raw works for some, but not all. Each person should take the time to research and find out what works for their Yorkies and lifestyle.

A Yorkie may not be able to survive on it's own in the wild but that does not make them any less a wolf. Yorkies are not simply "related back to the wolf", they ARE wolves. They are genetically, anatomically, and physiologically the same. That means that their bodies are designed the exact same way and they require the exact same diet. It's obvious that there are alternative ways of providing the "same" nutrition -- kibble, supplements, etc., but why not give it in it's natural form? Let's get real here, I feed prey-model raw which includes muscle meat, organ, bones, and WHOLE PREY, even some wild prey. I don't see any whole prey, organs, bones, fur, skin, etc. provided in homecooked or kibble so what exactly is your point? The same nutrition is provided in pre-made raw as is in kibble or homecooked. There is no "better" form.

I agree that they should take the time and research what works for their Yorkies and their lifestyle which is why I am taking the time out to educate others on the benefits of raw feeding. :) As many others (including myself) have posted numerous times, it is important to pick what works best for you, whether it be kibble, canned, homecooked or, God forbid, raw. I just don't quite understand how putting down raw helps the education or is beneficial to the discussion. Pointing out the cons is an entirely different story. I could pick out the flaws in every diet but I don't because I don't think it's necessary -- different diets work for different people, period. I'm simply here to share my knowledge and experiences about a diet that has worked for me and millions of other pet owners.

I agree. And actually... I do think a Yorkie would be able to survive for a little bit in the wild (maybe not a long time, simply because of their size...) but I do think instincts would kick in... at least a little bit. That's why so many dogs who are stray, etc survive. They *do* find ways. Not that it's right. It's humans who create the major dependence they have on us. I'm not saying they would last a long time in the wild, but they do have survival instincts.

Thanks to all of you
 

for sharing your stories and opinions on this subject, the toughest decision I'm facing in regards to my babies.
I am grossed out by raw as well, but I figure---the end justifies the means--seeing my fur-kids happy and healthy is my reward and MY stomach will have to get used to what my eyes see, yuk :eek: (I'm trying to convince myself).

I have giving it some thought and in my mind I have planned for the where and how to feed raw, if that's the decision I ultimately make. It's not too hard for me since I studied restaurant management and I'm aware on how & why to protect against contamination (I do it anyway as prevention in my daily life, as I'm a panicky person by nature :embarasse).

Nicky is on liquid Famotidine for stomach acid. He throws up mostly a yellow foamy substance but some times it's solids. The vet explained that the foamy yellow was because he has nothing in his stomach. The reason for not having anything in his belly is because I have a hard time making him eat. He hates kibble (hides when I take out the bag to feed them) and only eats it when starving for an entire day and even then he eats only some of it.

I tried changing the kibble, adding wet, leaving out for just a half hour, etc. You name it, I've tried it. He always wins, I'll do anything to get him to eat---from performing tricks to spoon feed him. He can go two days without eating (the longest I've tested him) if I let it and try not to give in.

I've also tried boiling chicken with veggies and adding to the kibble---he won't touch it. I have to separate it and he'll eat only the chicken with veggies. It brakes my heart when I'm preparing my hubby's and my meals, to see Nicky and Nini waiting to be fed from our food. When they get none, they walk around sulking and depressed.

My husband is totally against raw because of the same argument mention in above in one of the posts, that Yorkies have been domesticated, that they're not wild anymore, etc., plus the dangers of feeding raw...But, I'm ready and open to other possibilities, since my mom never tried kibble I know my babies can survive without it. My dilemma is the quality of life and consequences in years down the road.

I have done some research, but what I get is more confused. Out there, people against and for raw feeding are as passionate as they are here in YT. Most on either side of the subject can argue good points on which is the better way and how it has worked for them. My problem is that kibble is not working for me, at least not with Nicky in the sense that it's a struggle to make him eat it and with Nini because she's getting fat and her energy levels are so low (5 minutes into a walk and she's tired and wants to be carried all the way back home). I want to see them healthy, happy and thriving as your babies (I envy you).

I do consider the source of the information I get...if they have an investment in their opinion, I don't trust. That's why I ask you, you're not selling me anything :D

I agree, there's disadvantages to both raw and commercial but I'm more concerned with the disadvantages to my fur-kids. I've identified the main disadvantages to me and they are the time and effort I'd have to invest. My husband's is the money factor, but I think (?) it would be the same and probably even less than our out-put now. We're already spending a lot trying new kibble and wet food (top of the shelf) that I have to throw out almost full, the vets bills and meds :eek: (BTW, I introduce new food gradually, as advised here in YT forums). If the kids don't get sick as much, we won't have those expenses.

I understand the comment about different diet for different pups, it's just that it's been a year + with Nicky and I haven't figure out how to feed him :( in a way that makes him happy and healthy. I don't want it to be another year of him hating meal time. And I so I appreciate your input, it helps me short-cut-it without testing Nicky and Nini too heavily with what might not work and worst, what may injure my little bundles of joy :p

I don't think my little ones would survive one day in the wild :rolleyes: it's pretty wild in our back yard and they're only brave behind the little fence I have for them. As soon as they're not protected by the fence, they run to mommy! they're too-spoiled little brats...I know, I know, it's my fault.

Thanks for the links and advice, I'll follow them.

If he hates meal time that much, I'd want a change too.
Raw isn't our thing...definitely don't agree with it at this time.
We liked homecooked (well not actually doing it, but the idea of it).
There aren't as many contaimination issues, no bones, no need to try and balance it yourself, support available from veterinary nutritionists, etc. It's not for everybody and it is a lot of work, but imo, when done correctly it is one of the best ways to feed.

Domestic dogs these days are absolutely nothing like a wolf. Their genetic's have changed over the hundreds of years.
What I see happening these days with a lot of folks looking for a good quality of food to feed their pets is this............the folks are stressing and having medical problems due to it, while they are looking for that perfect diet for the pet.
I don't think a "perfect" solution has been found, and I don't think it ever will be simply because it's right under the nose. "Real Food". Simple! Ever wonder why the rendering plants won't give a tour? Well here are some answers.

Dead Cats And Dogs Used To Make Pet Food

Closer Look At A Rendering Plant

The Dark Side of Recycling

Nevermind.... I was going to post but decided to just let it go.

My husband works for a big company that sells things, technology not dog food. Point is, he says there are posters on here(not saying this thread but on YT in general) who's sole purpose is to bring up there companies dog food over and over in a positive way. I was shocked, but he said lots of companies do it, on all sorts of forums and will really play the role, it is part of the employees job. They will even put other products down and tell all sorts of "this happened to me" stories. I was confused about what to feed our Eva for so long, having problems with one particular food and coming here for advice. Then he told me this and I didn't know what to believe. I ended up getting advice from people in the real world(as oppose to the net).

Your comment above just reminded me of what he had shared, thought I would pass it on. Good luck with your food issues. Even with a food Eva stomachs well, we still sprinkle Parmesan on it, or liver flakes!:)

My jaw dropped to the floor
 

when I read your post. How disappointing :( Thanks so very much, I had no idea and I didn't think I was at all that innocent.

This is absolutely true. :(
But some (most) of us really give advice because we honestly care. To write it all off just because some people on the internet aren't honest maybe isn't a good idea either.

There have been many Yorkies that have benefited when food was changed on the recommendation of a YT member (which never would have happened if the owner decided not to trust anything online).

The most important thing is to research for yourself no matter the advice that people give you on a forum. :)