well sadly been let down by many in vet profession that have degrees so sometimes lay people are not always so dumb as many spend alot more time sometimes than the professionals educating themselves and deal with certain illnesses on a daily basis unlike many vets. I think all information is valuable then you as the dog owner go with what you feel is best for your dog with what you have learned and what your gut instinct is. If you join some of these yahoogroups for illnesses you will see many of these pet owners with no degrees know alot more than the vets and I have learned alot from them and continue to do so and would never discount this knowledge ever. If i trusted vets 100% no questions asked then a week ago when they wanted to give my dog who got hives from 17 days on simplicef and was in their chart they did not read a shot of a higher dose when we did not know she had a uti as urinalysis and culture was not back just wanted to give her a big shot of covenia Pfizer Animal Health Dogs Health Management

which is an antibiotic in same family as simplicef my dog might have gone into an anaphylactic shock

Anaphylaxis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so had i not reminded him of this my dog could have been very sick and he said oh wow i forgot about that and good thing you said no to the shot as this could have made dee dee very sick - uh yeah

oh and he has a phd from ucdavis so more education than most vets

so sorry I believe in knowing your dog, trust your gut, educate yourself, consult vet and do what you feel is best for your dog

oh and let's not forget the other vet who has been practicing for years gave my dog metacam while on steroids on an empty stomach and she was sick for months vomitting and diarhea as you never mix nsaids with steroids nor on empty stomach and i asked for tramadol as you can mix steroids and tramadol as she hurt her leg -so i was right and i had to take her to internal medicine specialist as she was so sick and ims said what was he thinking ???? uh he wasn't and i knew better and trusted the PROFESSIONAL.

oh and my friends dog a yorkie the dermatologist mixed ketoconazole with ivermectin for demodex and her dog ended up in a coma and almost died as you NEVER mix those drugs something i learned on the internet as was trying to help her figure out what happened as ketoconazole breaks the blood barrier wall allowing ivermectin to go to brain and cause seizures and coma in dogs as the ivermectin kills the mite by going to brain as they have a weaker blood barrier wall than dogs

Please do your homework I use to be much more trusting but vets are human they can make mistakes and you and your dog may pay the price - you should work as a team with them

That may be what they say. But there are other variables that will make it sky rocket.

yes which is gall bladder contraction and why i did 3 tests on dd to confirm it - first one then a week later second then 6 mos later on low protein diet a third and it definitely dropped the 3rd one from 73 to 54 then to 26 on low protein diet and last one was done by dr jean dodds who has studied blood work for 40 years so i trust hers was most accurate

but had i followed vets advice my poor dog would have had radioactive dye put in her for no reason as she had no symptoms of mvd or liver shunt just skin allergies and with numbers below 100 no high alt and no symptoms I would not put my dog through scintigraphy so i trusted my gut and glad i did as she has 3 years later had no symptoms just put her on low protein diet - NOW HAD she had symptoms and over 100 I would have done scintigraphy and flown her to ut for surgery with dr tobias no questions asked as i will always get my dogs to the best

Sasha's numbers are pre 78.6 and post 276.=((((

Facts for years. Nothing has ever been proven to effective otherwise!

Oh I know Vets are human and make mistakes and I have a very well versed vet that works with me not against me. I have often come in and told my Vet what I think is wrong with my dog and he will end up concering BUT that's the trust between me and my vet and I also recommend anyone to always feel comfortable with their vet of choice but as far as BAT's are concerned I think Dr. Sharon Center and Dr. Tobias ARE leading experts in this field and VERY up to date on this typical disease vs something wrong with mixing meds or a stomach problem that a regular vet might miss....there is a HUGE difference in someone that is taking on such a project as finding a DNA marker for a life threatening disease so I think I'll take their recommendations AGAIN over a lay person as Mary pointed out :)

It must be a butterfly needle.

Ahhh....

Those number are in Liver Shunt territory. Have you seen a specialist yet?

I agree and why i ALWAYS recommend Dr Centers and Dr tobias to everyone for liver issues if you read my posts - I just think the only reason she recommends the 12hr fast not be done is for dogs that are prone to hypoglycemic and tinies as many liver shunt dogs are the smaller ones and cannot be fasted for 12 hrs that is all i was saying if you read my posts. I think food complicates blood work in humans and in dogs and i think dr centers weighs more heavily on the post number anyway than the pre

yes that is over 100 since dr broome is near you in Tustin I would save up for scintigraphy which is appx $390 as i would confirm the shunt before flying or driving to ut but i would NOT get the liver shunt surgery done by anyone but Tobias --i think i posted this for you already but her is dr broome link he is the only one in so cal i believe that does the scintigraphy

Portal Scintigraphy in Veterinary Medicine

AVMI- Directions

I want to add..
I do belong to a couple of yahoo groups and I've always said an owner knows their dog best especially if you have had animals for a long time. BUT you still have to have an open communication with your vet and if you don't then you go find one that is open and will work with you the animal owner.
We as animal owners do have access to reading materials online but we do not have the education or medical license to give medical advice online as that is when we can set ourselves up and open up for a lawsuit. We can give opinions but I see so many give medical advice when it's been the wrong advice so that is why I always say seek a Vet's opinion before you set out online to do your search.
With Bile Acid Tests I really think that Dr. Sharon Center and Dr. Karen Tobias is totally up to date with medical protocal with this disease. Now if my vet would tell me something else to do then I might question it and seek further or dig deeper because he's not up to date with the latest findings on LS but he is knowledegable on the disease as I was kinda shocked when we were discussing things and he himself mentioned the Protein C test and many vets have NO clue what that is!

Donna

You are speaking in generalities based on situations that have happened to you.

The subject of this thread is Liver Shunt. Nothing to mess with and still recommend taking Dr. Tobias and Dr Centers methods over recommendations of a lay person on YT.

Again, recommendations are great, but giving advise as to what one should or shouldn't do over what has been advised and recommended by Specialists and Experts in the field.....mmmmmm. That is unless one is willing to take the responsibility of someone's dog dying because of said recommendation.

Dr. Center says a 12 hour fast is no longer required on any even on the larger yorkies...I had the honor of hearing her speak in Memphis and I have spoken to her on the phone :)

So do you think a dog fasting for 12 hrs is going to screw up the test? As i would doubt that very much as that seems to be the dispute here i guess lolllll

I was also reading that there is a Dr. Wilfried Mai out of the Univerity of Pennsyulvania-School of Veterinary Medicine, seeking to modificy the technique of using contrast-enhanced magnetic esonance angiograph in humans for use in dogs.

Traditional methods for diagnosing porto-systemic shunts and hepatic microvascular disease have included radiographs, ultrasound and scintigraphy. The tests often have been used in combination to obtain an accurate picture of the extent of the problem before treatment options can be obtained. His hope is that CE-MRA will afford a better diagnostic option for canine liver patients.

oh no I have seen this stuff happen over and over on the dog groups i am on and on here loll not just my dog - check out the link where the vet just did a barium swallow test for a dog with crystals in urine having symptoms of liver shunt - sorry not just happening to me wish it was as hate to see other owners experience what i have experienced - and those are not generalities those are specifics

You are disputing the protocol of the best in the field. She developed the BAT.....I think I'lll take her recommendations over yours. It's a no brainer decision.

All I can say is I HATE this disease!!!!

It happens in all medical fields.........

But, I would still take the recommendations of an educated expert in a field, over that of a lay persons......

Everyone should have an active participation in their as well as their pets medical care.......but, if you don't have faith in your vet......then find another.

well the ultrasound is very hard to detect in a small dog unless the person doing it is very experienced in liver shunt like dr tobias group but i would not trust that test over scintigraphy and what about protein C test - a dog owner i helped had protein c test sent to texas a & m came back no shunt well when i sent him to dr tobias she did scintigraphy and shunt was noted they opened him up he had 3 or 4 shunts so protein c test in my opinion after that is not accurate unless texas a & m testing is not as sufficient as cornell which is where i told him the protein c test should have gone

the scintigraphy in my opinion is still the best test if bile acids are over 100 over anything else BUT having said that ginger on here had the scintigraphy with dr tobias and she was opened up and turned out no shunt during spay so it is really tough when i hear something like that as she had alot of symptoms as well but just mvd

or go to specialists which i do pay a little more as you probably pay less in the long run with a better diagnostic if it is something serious.

Now Please.....this is still in the research stages.....how do you know what development this Dr has made......it's still not even out there.........

YTCA has made donation for this research......

lol well I have done 3 with 12hr fast and did not seem to be a problem so i really do not think it is going to be in accurate and she is changing her protocol to avoid hypoglycemia not because 12 fast was inaccurate lollllll

what is in research stage protein C is that what you are referring to ?

I have sent some blood work myself for a Protein C test on one of my yorkies but I didn't send it to Texas A & M and I'm here in Texas my vet shipped it to Cornell University to Dr. Sharon Center and of course no shunt was found and also we re did the test in a month and the BATs were/are normal...that is when I found out that taking medications right before a BAT test can obscure the results on a BAT test and for several years now still normal BATS and I run them every 6 months and that is on a pet yorkie not a breeding one. I will do a scintigraphy after a Protein C test that was run by Dr. Sharon Center and that is if that what she recommends. I totally trust what Dr. Sharon Center would recommend.

This is the post I returned to the blog for. It concerns be greatly. Did I miss something? IMO, there is no replacement for good veterinarian treatment. Did you have a bad treatment that led you to feel otherwise?


We are all entitled to own opinions. However! Holisitic medicine can be dangerous. I can see a need if one doesn't have anything to lose. But otherwise I wouldn't dare bother rolling those dice!
I've known a couple vets that work with holistic practitioners. I can tell you stories about those crazos, all of have bad reputations as DVM's.
It's not to say that every single holistic practitioner is a quack. There are some good stories out there. I go back to, when you have nothing to lose why not? The holistic theory that all problems come from vaccinations is a lie. Just like Lady Wonder the Palm Reader, people come to them distraught. It's easy to blame anything where they can. They're lying & don't buy into all of it. In addition to this. A good vet SHOULD be all one needs. Yorkies don't need a therapist, trainer, personal shopper, whisperer, etc. Proper care by you and or a groomer & vet. That should be all that they need.

Even though Dr. Dodds is not a typical holistic vet. Any time you talk about a world renowned medical provider one must give credit. sort of like talking to Dr. Phil about problems in your family. Is he a good man or is it marketing? Well, BOTH! If you cannot take your pet to them for everything, are they really helping you that much? I'd ask them why? It's niche marketing & it's okay if you know it up front.
This is only my own opinion. You are entitled to your own. If we existed on holistic meds where would our yorkies be? We would not know or we would be too sick to care for them.
I won't titer, not me, no way!

She is not changing her protocol. It was changed 3 years ago.

oh ok so then 3 years ago she changed it due to hypoglycemia and tinies having issues fasting for 12 hrs not because inaccurate results on the pre

what about the original poster? her babies post test was over 200... any suggesttions, kind words, or prayers for her?:confused:

Do you know that for a fact.........The reason for her changing was two fold....one because of the hypoglycemia in tinies the other is based on her findings, it is totally unnecessary.