Does anyone recommend a clinic in Southern California that is great with bile acid tests?????????

yes i posted a few times dr jean dodds is near you and she does this very reasonably and has studied blood work for 40 years here is her site Hemopet/Hemolife, HEMOPET a full animal blood bank, Diagnostic Laboratory, Adoption and Consultation and she is in garden grove and that is really close to you - i drive to her for all our blood work as she is very reasonable. What cost a 1,000 at vet she charges $250 and i think pre and post biles with her are like $50-$70 - she did fecal, urine, titers, cbc, thyroid panel for my girl for $250 and my boy fecal, urine, titers, cbc, and cpli and tli for 250 and those tests at our local vet would have each been $1000 so this is why i see her plus she is extremely knowledgeable and helpful and she helps me a ton with my dogs. Not to mention vets all over the world consult with her about blood work so you are getting the best.

Ok Sasha is FINALLY getting her BAT tomorrow at 3:15 pm. I will keep you guys updated when it's done.

Sasha went in to get her BAT. Can someone tell me how their vet took blood?? The vet I took Sasha to got blood form her neck

that is where they take blood on a dog as it is through the jugular much less stressful than on leg where veins are smaller and they only do leg veins if the dog is too difficult and they cannot get from neck. The prob with doing from leg is the veins can collapse so if you need them for iv then you run into problems - also they get the blood faster from the jugular as it takes alot of time from a leg

I don't think it matters what location the blood is drawn from, but according to Dr. Centers, how the blood is drawn.

1. Collect a bile acid sample before a meal (pre-meal) and 2 hours after a normal meal. It is no longer recommended fo fast for 12 hours before first collection or meal. The optimal meal is one of the dogn's regular food. Stuffin the dog, the dob being stressed or frightened can posssibly skew results. The draw can be done one day pre feeding, then the dog can be taken home and fed and another draw done 2 hours post-feeding.

2. Bile Acid TEsting - Criteria for best draw. Also, it's been heard from a number of people that they have a pretty divergent resultsd on multiple draws. What facxtors re most likely to influence this?

Dogs should not be stressed prior to draw. Blood should be collected into lithium vacutainers. The blood must be treated gently as rupture of the red blood cels complicates testing. Red color completes with the blue dye color in the assay that measures the concentration of bile acid. Limpic blood (fatty blood) after the meal increases red blood cel fragility.
a. Collect blood into syringe using a butterfly set up.
b. Remove needle from syringe and remove the top of the vacutainer tube
c. Gently put the blood (rolldown side of the glass) into the vacutainer.
d. Replace the rubber top on the vacutainer, making sure it seals tightly
e. Centrifuge the sample to separate plasma from red blood cells.
f. Put plasma in a separate tube before mailing
g. DO NOT USE separator tubes as these are inconsistent in their ability to keep red blood cells and plasma ceparate
h. Bile Acid cannot be measured in EDTA blood, do not collect into purple top tubes.
i. Bolume of blood necessary for bile acid determination: at least 1/2m; (.5ml) of PLASMA, that means 1 to 1.5 ml blood

Many things can influence the results. A dog that has been car sick or stressed will test differently.

she was pretty happy when I left her, she was excited with all the dogs there!! lol so hopefully her test wont get messed up

i doubt it the only thing i have heard that can mess it up is if the gall bladder contracts during the blood draw otherwise i would not be too concerned

And of course how the blood is drawn (method).

i would hope the vet knew how to do that lolll

Not so sure.....since she was very specific in her seminar about the importance of the method. Not sure if it was because there had been screw ups or something that was part of her new protocol.

Hoping you get good news on the test results!!!

yeah i would not be surprised with screw ups lolll that is why i did the 3rd one with jean dodds as she knows how to do blood testing and she analyzes all the blood work for my kids too if done with other vets. Many times vets have freaked me out for no reason like when demi's bun was 39 a little elevated but her creatinine was perfect and they were freaking me out about kidney disease and jean emailed me back and said she is just dehydrated. Personally i think many just trust what lab says and are not that sharp at blood work and how certain things correspond together -

I feel that Centers & Tobias are the best hope we have at finding a genetic marker. I do feel Mardelin is accurate. What I don't understand and perhaps someone can give further explaining; how can one get a true reading without a before and after test?

Center & Tobias are indeed the pioneers. I agree that it sounds ignorant to say one doctor is better than another. However, it's an area of small concern to most practitioners. There are many that treat it. We'd love some other specialists that are in the same league.

I just want to say what a educating blog this was for me. I am now going to get myself a New Vet. One that can work hand in hand with my Holistic Vet.

This seems to be very true!!

The first vet I took Hershey to, knew about the test but hadn't preformed it much. His test results came out high. Took him to three other vets who knew more about it and wouldn't you know it, his results were alright.:rolleyes:

This is the way it is done, and it is somewhat recently that Dr. Centers is now saying that fasting is not necessary. I don't think it will hurt the results to fast, it isn't considered necessary. Do the pre test, feed them and wait 2 hrs. and do post test. You don't need to change vets.

Actually, it's been at least three years that Dr. Center has stated that a 12 hour fast is not necessary, but that misinformation is still out there.

This is from 2/10/07:

Dogs DO NOTneed to be fasted for 12-hours to conduct this test. The important issue is to test BEFORE and 2-Hrs after FEEDING to fully evaluate the dogs ability to extract bile acids from the portal circulation.

PSVA and MVD Research Summary

well in humans we fast for our blood work for 12 hrs and i personally believe if you are doing this test you are doing with a full cbc panel on the pre bile acid test so i think it is important to do the 12 hr fast so your cbc panel is accurate and you are getting the bile acid at the same time then 2hrs after food that is how i would do it as most people are getting a full blood panel done at the same time and just like in humans dogs should always have a 12 hr fast blood draw to not have any food in system to mess up the blood test and get accurate results

this is probably because if you do not do the second blood draw exactly 2hrs on the dog you will not get accurate results

many vets like ours did do the post only just to see if it is an issue as that is the more important number then if it comes in high they do the pre and post like we had done. I personally was not happy as dd had to go back and why i say do it all at once with a cbc panel with the pre so only 2 blood draws as i was not happy about 3 blood draws with my dog as she gets very stressed when giving blood and ended up with a bruised neck but this was before i knew about all this stuff

Dr. Centers new protocol does not advocate the 12 hour fasting.

yeah well food can adjust a blood test so if it were mine i would always 12 hr fast as i get cbc panels always on 12 hr fast and how i knew dex has high triglycerides on a 12 fast thus predisposing him to pancreatitis as he has high fat content in blood. I personally still think it is wise to do 12 hr fast like us humans do on blood work then that way there is no question in my mind that food played a roll in adjusting any blood work that is my personal opinion so if it were mine i would fast for 12 hrs even if not recommended. I think she is mentioning it as some dogs cannot fast 12 hrs without hypoglycemic issues as they are too tiny and for those situations she is saying it is ok to not do the 12 fast but if your dog can handle the 12 fast i would do it

my other thought is dogs digest food much faster than humans as their digestive tract is smaller and why they can tolerate raw based diets so this could be why she does not think it necessary as the food is out of system much faster but again if it were mine i would want to make sure nothing was in that system for 12 hrs prior also many dogs will not eat at vets office and some people are not close to home so getting a dog to eat when they are really hungry may help as that test has to be done post right on the dot at 2hrs or it will be inaccurate

The choice is yours. I would tend to go with Dr. Center's protocol......and it was changed over 3 years ago. One of the reasons she changed it was due to wee ones having hyperglycemic episodes because of the fasting procedure....she conducted more research and testing and conducted that the fasting did not affect the BAT. She found she got more accurate reading when you followed the pups normal feeding schedule.

I will say breeders that attended her Seminar at the Roving National walked away with a better understanding as to why Dr. Centers conducted the BATs the way she did. Hopefully more Kennel Clubs look into obtaining her and Dr. Tobias for more seminars.

yeah that is what i stated it was for dogs that are tiny and have hypoglycemic issues as they cannot fast 12 hrs - i think that is why maybe we see some of these dogs with pre numbers higher than post then as my girl had pre numbers of 3 and post was higher so that would make more sense - i personally would only do it that way if my dog was hypoglycemic and a tiny

The reason pre numbers are higher than post is due to individual differences in the rate of stomach emptying and intestinal motility.

I would highly recommend to those that are testing their pups to follow Dr. Center's & Specialist's recommendation for BAT testing. They are the experts in the field.

Another bit of info, test dogs when they are young. Dogs greater than 4 years of age can have other liver problems that will affect the Bile Acid Test.

so if differences in stomach emptying another reason i think to have an empty stomach at time of doing it

the whole idea of having a pre is to determine how the liver is functioning without any food in system then the post is to determine how the liver is functioning after food is introduced into the body

The key is differences in each individual dog. However, per Dr Centers.....this does not contribute to correct readings.

Again, that is your choice. I still stand with going with an expert's recommendations over those of a lay person.

Agreed 100% always go with an expert over someone that doesn't have the degree. Please don't take this as rude but I've always stated PLEASE seek a Vet's advice over someone that is not medically trained before seeking online advice.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terrier