Food After Liver Shunt Surgery
 

Hi everyone,

As some of might know, the new lil' guy Trooper that I recently adopted had liver shunt surgery in the summer. The vet said he has a clean bill of health now and recommended to his foster family that he can be fed a normal diet, and they have him on Wellness (dry & wet). I checked with my vet and she agreed, but when I joined the LS Group on Yahoo I was told that he should still be eating a low protien diet like Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 so that he doesn't have anymore attacks/complications later in life. Now I'm torn and don't know what direction to go... I'm still feeding him Wellness, but does anyone have any suggestions/opinions/experiance with liver shunt babies. If you have a liver shunt baby, what have you been feeding them since their surgery???

I appreciate the help.
:confused:

We have a 2 year old Yorkie charlie and when he was born he was very small and suffered from a liver shunt , and just last summer he had the exact same thing. So our vet gave us special dog food to feed him on.

Also our vet recommened Cottage cheese , it keeps the Dog healthy and is good for them when they have just had a Liver Shunt operation. White fish , was recommened for our dog as well , which keeps them healthy. So go to your Local vet and get some special dog food for this. Cottage cheese was a very good choice , our dog loved it , I would recomend this.

Tough call because excessively low protein can hurt the liver. I wouldn't want an asymptomatic dog on 15-16% personally. Then again, I trust the Yahoo Group more on nutrition than I do specialists because they actually have to deal with diet everyday. Maybe give RC LS 14 and add in some vegetarian protein? Hmmm, I don't know.:confused:

Can you tell me specifically what kinda of dog food you feed him? Is it the Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14?

Yes , Our vet gave us Royal Canin Hepatic 14 food for our dog.

Has the yorkie had a BAT recently? If so, what were the results? I would not feed any foods containing red meat or organ meats to a dog who has had a liver shunt even if it's been repaired. You could try Natural Balance Vegetarian which is an all life stages food AND it's not a prescription food...Yes, many dogs who have had liver shunt surgery still end up having liver issues later in life whether it be months or years later. I prefer to provide liver support to dogs who have a history of liver problems...It doesn't hurt them to eat foods that are appropriate for liver problems...It's not just that low protein is needed, it's that they need the right kind of protein...I wouldn't give any high purine/protein foods that contain fish, red meat, organ meats, or pork. Honestly, I would go with vegetarian food, but that's just me....
RC Hepatic food is vegetarian, but is low protein, so if the dog has completely normal BAT results and no symptoms whatsoever, I would add protein to the food in the form of no sodium cottage cheese or goat milk protein powder, egg whites, or low sodium goat cheese.

Teddi has LS surgery a year ago and we had her re-tested and she has a clean bill of health but Dr. Tobias at UT said even though she is all repaired she should remain on RC Hepatic for the rest of her life. I mix it with with the Natural Balance reduced calorie formula dog food (although she doesn't need any reduced calorie food but it is very low in protien).

I'm not sure what BAT stands for, but he hasn't had any tests done in a couple months that I know of.. I'd have to look through his file that they gave me. And even if I did get it done, they vets seem adament that he's fine and doesn't need special food, but other's who dealt with LS say he should be... I'm trying to get a hold of his surgeon at Oakland to see what they say. If I'm still confused after that I might give Susan Davis, pet nutionist & Dr. Gordon, Holistic Vet a call...
To me, my instincts tell me to put him on the RC Hepatic or Natural Balance Veg. just in case. But at the same I time don't want him to not have enough protien if he needs it... ????

I concur with Yorkieluv to use the RC and add good protein.
Dr. Tobias says that a special diet is best for life and that is what I'd most likely go with but I wouldn't want to underdo protein either. Adding a bit of egg white or something should take care of that.

On another note, Oakland Michigan or Oakland California?

I think that it would be best too to go with the RC & a little bit of other protien... But if I give him egg whites or cottage cheese, how much should I give him a day? Or what kind of supplements and where can I get them at?

Oakland Vetterinary in Michigan.

Interesting.
Ellie saw an internist there for her liver issues. :)
I think you could go with grams of protein but don't know how many are already in the kibble. I think it's so many grams per pound of weight? Somebody should know and you could just give the maximum healthy amount.

Someone from Oakland just called me back in regards to my food issue with Trooper and they said that he can eat whatever he wants as long as it's a quality food, such as: Eukanuba, Iams, Science Diet, NutroMax or Royal Canin... They said no supplements where needed.
This is what frustrates me... the fact that they call some of those brands high quality!?!?

Most vets think the same way and if any vet was telling me to feed Nutro after all the horrible reports I'd say they aren't up to date with the quality of these foods.

Are they telling you no liver support is needed like omegas, Denosyl? Ellie's internist (knowing that Ellie is pretty much asymptomatic and she may not even have MVD at all) said it was my choice to keep her on Denosyl but it couldn't hurt...

By the way, while I liked the internist that we saw a whole lot, not much impressed me about the whole thing and I wouldn't bother with them if it wasn't necessary honestly.

There is one vet in there that somebody told me not to go to because, "Our personalities would clash".:rolleyes: lol, she knows me all too well. This particular vet that she told me not to see there is good but probably doesn't like questioning by owners or something. In the end, Dr. Tobias knows a whole lot more than they do, in my opinion, and I'd sooner listen to her.

Trooper was treated by Dr. Craig Riggs, and his wife Aunna Lippert... I was already warned about Lippert and how rough around the edges she can be. I never actually spoke to her though.
Who is Dr. Tobias you're referring to?

Dr. Tobias is the leading authority on Liver Shunts and she teaches at University of Tennessee (that is where my Teddi had her surgery).

Many vets/specialists will tell you to feed whatever you want after surgery....but they are not dealing with the dog on a day to day basis...Many of them do not continue to see them for the duration of their lives and do not follow along with everything that happens to the dog, so many *think* it's okay when it's actually not for many...I prefer to err on the side of caution. NB vegetarian is *not* too little protein. It is formulated for healthy dogs for all life stages. Also, the RC Hepatic can be given with added protein. How much does your yorkie weigh? Is this dog ever a picky eater?

I have had to take my liver compromised yorkie's health into my own hands because vets were just not giving me enough answers...Once I started implementing things that I had learned and researched, I saw a significant improvement in my yorkie.

So I was speaking to the moderator on the LS Yhoo Group and she suggested these supplements for Trooper too. Has anyone tried them before?

HomeVet Online Store

HomeVet Online Store

And is this what you can give them if they are eating feces, which both of my boys are doing. (gag me gross)
HomeVet Online Store

Yes I give those supplements daily to Roxy to aid her liver function :thumbup:

Those are all excellent supplements to use for liver compromised dogs. The hepatosupport has milk thistle and b-vitamins and the vetri-dmg acts basically like denosyl which is also important for liver support.

I am so frustrated!!! I tried to order these supplements last night from this website: HomeVet Online Store
but when I call it tells me that they don't accept number from blocked numbers. My number isn't blocked it's unlisted... but I wonder if it's because I live in Canada too??? It tells me to dial *82 to unblock it, but that doesn't work... I wanted to call so that I could speak to someone about proper dosages. Anyways, I was wondering where you guys order these products from?? Maybe I'll have better chances with another website.

Which products specifically?
I get Denosyl from entirelypets.com, lactulose I would get from a human pharmacy, milk thistle from GNC, vitamin E anywhere that sells human vitamins and I'm not sure where to get Vetri DMG.

Now I see you are looking at Hepatosupport.
You can give that or human milk thistle and add your own vitamin e and maybe some vitamin b.

You don't have to call. You can just order it online...they'll ask you for information on your pet like weight, symptoms, etc., and they will put the dosing info on the bottles when they send them to you.
That's the best site to order those particular products from.

Thanks Yorkieluv... The moderator of the LS group told me to call in my first order to get dosages. I didn't realize that there was a small questionaire for them to use to figure it out, and then label it on the supplements. I placed the order so I should get it sometime next week. In the meantime I'm weaning Trooper onto the RC Hepatic LS food.

Thanks everyone for guiding me through this... I had no idea that LS babies needed the extra attention to their diet.

Liver Shunt
 

Hi Jayde,

HomeVet is AMAZING!! They are so fast and efficient with your order. The resident Veterinarian will put the correct dosages on the bottles of the VetriDMG and the HepatoLiquid. (I suggest getting the Hepato liquid cause most dogs go NUTS over the taste - my Chewy thinks its his gravy on his RC).

Chewy had LS surgery November 10, 2009. He was 2 1/2 when he was diagnosed and operated on. Very risky. He seems to be doing great....but we kept him on the meds (low dose antibiotic and lactulose) for about 3-4 months post op. He's now off those, but still only eating RC Hepatic and all the supplements you mentioned, plus I also give him VSL#3 which Olga told me about from the liver disease group. Chewy has very high ALT and liver enzymes and the VSL#3 helps with that issue from the liver shunt.

We're going in next month for his 6 month check-up post-op. We'll have the Bile Acid Test (BAT) redone, as well as urine culture and full blood tests to make sure everything is still great. Then we'll do it again at 1 yr. and probably every 6 months for the rest of his life. Right now - as of his 3 month post-op test, Chewy's surgery is a complete success. All numbers have returned to normal and he's doing great.

However - my Vets didn't figure out what was wrong with Chewy until he was 2 1/2!! Even though I constantly told them something was wrong with him....I am civil with them, but I listen to Olga, Dr. Tobias from U of Tenn. and Dr. Centers from U of Cornell. They KNOW what they are talking about when it comes to liver shunt surgery. The vets, its sad to say, are clueless in my opinion.

Think about it this way - a person goes in for bypass surgery to clean out the arteries in their heart due to poor diet and fatty food. The minute you get out of the hospital, does the Doctor tell you "OK, artery is all clear now - go enjoy a Big Mac at McDonald's"? NO!

But, in effect - what these Vets are telling us is "OK, you dog had a birth defect, was not born with a properly functioning liver, we had to repair the problem, and while other problems like MVD and HMD might arise, the shunnt is repaired - so just go ahead and completely overwork and overload the liver with hard to digest meat protein". Does it make sense? In my honest opinion, no it does not...

Chewy still gets 6 meals a day out of his auto-feeder (my husband and I are both attorneys, so we work alot). He gets RC Hepatic Kibble, pedisure vanilla with added fiber for extra vegetarian protein, and we're now adding in the hard-boiled egg whites to up his protein even alittle bit more. Also - gradual increases are very important - or you could cause their liver to be overwhelmed and create a new shunt...

Honestly - Chewy's getting a great, balanced vegetarian diet - he's happy and healthy. I think he'll be getting the RC Hepatic for life, because its not worth his health to give him something different and risk an adverse reaction.

Best of luck - and if you want even more advice - join the Yahoo Liver Disease Group - I am a member and it is just amazing!

<3Tania, Chewy & Sparky

Do you have to have a prescription to order from this on-line store?

Hi Tania - Wow, I can't believe how long it's been since I've started this thread! I've had Trooper for 15 months now and he's doing great! I've kept him on RC Hepatic and giving him egg whites, cottage cheese or goat yogurt as his protien source & we've stuck with the supplements from HomeVet that Olga recommended too! He's such a character, I love him so much and can't imagine life without him! I knew he was meant to be mine!

I've been a member of the Liver Shunt Yahoo Group since I got Trooper. That's where I learned everything on taking care of a ls baby! Olga is amazing and I trust her over my own vet! Like I said in another post, even my vet and the vets at OVRS said he could be on normal food, but I'd rather play it safe. I haven't been on the group site much anymore cause we seem to have everything under control now, but I'm still a member.
But I haven't heard of hepatoliquid! I'll have to check the HomeVet site for it, is that where you got it from? Did Olga recommend it? I have Troop on the capsules, but I think the liquid would be better.

Glad to hear that Chewy is doing great! So good to know that he's with someone who really cares enough about his health to do some of their own research and not just go with what the vet says. Heck, if I was like that my poor Deegan boy (my other yorkie) would be a goner! He has EPI (EXocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) and if I didn't do enough research and figured it out and learn what to do from another Yahoo Group he would have literally starved to death! The instructions my vet gave me were of no use but my vet bills were soaring!

BTW - I love that name Chewy! That was actually on the list for when we were deciding on a name for Trooper, but my dh didn't want to curse ourselves with a dog that chewed the furniture! LOL

Like I said, Trooper is doing great! He's a normal, happy and healthy dog! I take them to daycare one day a week and he rips around the play yard and keeps up with the other dogs, you'd never know he was at deaths door step an year and a half ago!

Ringo1 - No, you don't need a prescription from the HomeVet site. Here's the link:
HomeVet© Natural Pet Care
Click on the yellow box that reads "Dr. Jeff's Favorite Supplements & Food" to shop. And like Tania said, if you have any questions feel free to ask, but you can always join the Yahoo Group (DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease) You have to join the group to participate though, but it's worth it!!!

You do not need a prescription to order from HomeVet because these items are hollistic supplements, not veterinary prescribed medicines.

Hi Jayde!!!

I thought your name looked familiar....So happy that little Trooper is doing so well. It truly is amazing, how well these little guys can do, with Olga's help, isn't it? My Vets were very negative about Chewy given his age at diagnosis and his bloodwork and HE symptoms were quite severe when he was diagnosed. I just stayed positive, knew this little guy was NOT going anywhere anytime soon, and did all my homework and researched what I needed to do to get him healthy and make his surgery a success. I love my dogs like my children (I don't have any children yet, so in reality, they are my children). My husband and I call them our little boys and with Chewy being our first born - we were devastated when he was first diagnosed. Thank God for Olga!!!!

So SO SO happy to hear Trooper is doing great....I agree with what you said, and to me, as long as our boys are getting adequate amounts of protein - regardless of the source (in our cases, vegetarian), I think that is all that matters. I don't see the point in risking how great Chewy is doing by introducing meat into his diet.

BTW - what exactly is Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency? I only ask because our newest addition, Sparky, (who just turned 1 btw) knock on wood, based on BATs seems completely healthy. Except - he had a VERY bad reaction to the food they gave him for the BAT. When he got home he threw up constantly and the DLD site ultimately thought it was pancreatitis. After 2 days of pediasure he was back to his wild crazy energy self. But given how severe the reaction was, it has caused me concern that something might not be 100% right....

He eats great, very normal poops, TONS of energy - my only concern is he does pee alot (but I've heard this is common with Yorkies due to the teeny bladder) and his pee is very light yellow. He also eats quite a bit - but he's still a skinny little guy - not unhealthy skinny, but skinny nonetheless. I'm thinking he's just one of the skinny lanky Yorkie's as opposed to the compact little stocky ones...but curious what this illness is regardless....I've changed Sparky's food from the Innovo EVO (Very high fat) to a low fat (Healthy Weight Wellness) along with some wet that is a bit more meaty for him.

I'm also wondering if he might have allergies - but not sure what it is that Yorkie's are often allergic to - I've heard chicken, which I know his kibble is derived from, but then I'm not too sure what to feed him instead.

BTW - Chewy's name came from two instances - first when we saw him, as a puppy, he kinda looked like Chewy from Star Wars - but then the minute we got in the car with him, he started chewing on my index finger...and with that - the name Chewy stuck...and he is a CHEWER!!! Actually - so is my Yorkie for that matter - but as long as they have plenty of nylabones and toys - they stick to chewing those and not household items. Chewy did do a number on our dining room table and chair legs as a puppy - oh well! He was so cute - we couldn't even yell - we were more concerned about wood in his little puppy belly!!!

Anywho - I'm babbling on as usual ;-) So happy to hear Trooper is doing so well!

All the best,
<3Tania, Chewy & Sparky

Hey Tania,
Yep, I'm a familiar name. I just haven't been on either site in a long time. I seem to go in spurts..
I'm just like you, my dh and I call Deegan & Trooper our boys too! We don't have children and don't plan to so they are defintely our babies. While my friends are urning for a baby, I'm urning for another puppy! LOL

As for the Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency (EPI), it's the inability of the pancreas to secrete the necessary digestive enzymes, to digest starches, digest fats, digest protein. When the enzymes are not available to help digest nutrients, the nutrients cannot be used by the body. The body in essence starts to starve. Therefore, due to the lack of proper digestion of nutrients, exocrine pancreatic insufficiency is usually accompanied by structural and functional changes in the tissue lining of the small intestine that further impairs nutrient absorption called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). Basically if the body isn't digesting the proper nutrients, the dog begins to lose weight at an astronomical rate. Deegan was a healthy 8lbs, and in 2 weeks he was down to 5lbs! He was having diarrehea, lethargic sometimes, but sometimes not... It took 4 appointments of going to the vets to have tests run to determine what he had. And once we finally were sure of it, the vets advice was pretty much useless, yet costing me $100 a month for the meds they recommended that weren't the proper meds to begin with!
After doing some of my own research and finding and joining the
k9-EPIGLOBAL@yahoogroups.com I found an alternative to enzymes at a much cheaper cost. The vets enzymes would cost me $100/mth, but buying enzymes in bulk from Enzyme Diane it's only cost me $160 for 1kilo which has lasted me 17 months so far and I still have a bit left! Plus he has to be on a special food too, Iam's Intestinal - Low Residue.

I have an EPI pamphlet that I want to post for everyone, but can't seem to figure it out so if anyone is interested, just pm me your email and I can email it to you. I might even start a thread on here and just copy the text just to help get the word out a bit more. This disease seems to strike German Shepherds most often, but in rare cases other breed might get it as well.

As for the allergies, I don't know much about them except that soem people chose lamb over chicken. If the sypmtoms just began not too long ago it could be an allergy from the eviroment too, especially since it's spring right now and allergies are at their all time worst this year. Or you could search for a yahoo group for canine allergies too maybe. ?? Just a suggestion...

Anyways, I hope that you figure it out for Sparky. Keep me posted and if you have any questions about EPI just let me know. I'm happy to get the word out so more people, especially vets so that it doens't take as long as it did for Deegan to get diagnosed.
Have a great day to you all!