luxating patella - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Ashley V · 01-07-2009, 11:02 AM

What are the signs and symptoms of LP and what is the difference between the grades? What are the treatment options for each grade?

Ashley V · 01-07-2009, 02:28 PM

So no one out of the many people that have gone through this, have any information or advice to offer?

I think Chip might have an LP grade 1/2 and I would like some information if someone has the time to offer some.

Also, someone on another forum suggested supplements for joints... does anyone have one that they recommend and would possibly help since his leg isn't bad?

tumismom · 01-07-2009, 02:33 PM

both tumi and gracie have LP grade 1. They don't need surgery and the walk and jump and do everything fine. Grade 1 means their knees sometimes pop out but then pop back in on it's own..They are on Cosequin regular strengh. they each get half a tab a day which is according to their weight. I did not notice anything in them until their yearly check up and the vet told me. but she said not to worry. but if they are grade 3 or 4 then, they do need a surgery.

Ashley V · 01-07-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tumismom

both tumi and gracie have LP grade 1. They don't need surgery and the walk and jump and do everything fine. Grade 1 means their knees sometimes pop out but then pop back in on it's own..They are on Cosequin regular strengh. they each get half a tab a day which is according to their weight. I did not notice anything in them until their yearly check up and the vet told me. but she said not to worry. but if they are grade 3 or 4 then, they do need a surgery.

Thank you for responding! Yea I think he has a grade 2. He is showing no signs of pain, but is limping with his back left leg off and on every time he walks or runs. Where can you get the Cosequin? Is it a supplement for joints like knees? And another dumb question: Smokey shows absolutely no signs at all, which doesn't mean anything, but you know... would giving him a supplement help prevent a patella problem or would it be useless to give it to him?

When Chip was about 6 months, DH accidently stepped on that paw and ripped the skin of the paw pad off and it took about a year for it to completely heal, so I'm not sure if it is a patella problem, because maybe he is just used to walking like that because his paw was tender BUT then I thought about it... last spring my cousin was holding Chip and Chip was getting wiggely and jumped out of my cousin's arms (he's pretty tall) and Chip fell on that same leg on concrete and his leg was stunned. He was unable to stand or walk for about 10 minutes and was yelping. After that he just shook it off but I'm wondering if an injury can cause an LP problem or maybe it's possible he is just used to limping and just does. Sometimes, I wish they could talk!!!

tumismom · 01-07-2009, 02:49 PM

i get mine from here
Buy Cosequin Multi, Once A Day Supplement, For Small-Medium Dogs, Chewable Tablets Online at drugstore.com

I don't think cosequin will prevent the future LP but it is for maintainence. I would talk to the vet. If he is more the grade 1, i think you should see the orthopedic surgeon. the TLC animal hospital by ft. evans rd has ortho surgeons.

tumismom · 01-07-2009, 02:53 PM

here is the ortho specialist info..
VSC: Veterinary Surgical Center - Doctor Anke Langenbach - Vienna, VA

Ashley V · 01-07-2009, 02:59 PM

Thanks! I'll check into it. I don't think they do surgery though for a grade 2. I think it's only for 3 and 4. I could be wrong, but I think that's what I read.

tumismom · 01-07-2009, 03:03 PM

yeah..they don't need surgery for grade 2. but i would def. see the vet and also get second opinion from the orthopedic specialist.

Miao · 01-20-2009, 12:05 PM

Over here, the orthopedic specialist is very willing to do surgery for grade 1-2. I suppose it's a judgement call depending on the person, dog, and doctor.

TLC · 01-20-2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley V

Thank you for responding! Yea I think he has a grade 2. He is showing no signs of pain, but is limping with his back left leg off and on every time he walks or runs. Where can you get the Cosequin? Is it a supplement for joints like knees? And another dumb question: Smokey shows absolutely no signs at all, which doesn't mean anything, but you know... would giving him a supplement help prevent a patella problem or would it be useless to give it to him?

When Chip was about 6 months, DH accidently stepped on that paw and ripped the skin of the paw pad off and it took about a year for it to completely heal, so I'm not sure if it is a patella problem, because maybe he is just used to walking like that because his paw was tender BUT then I thought about it... last spring my cousin was holding Chip and Chip was getting wiggely and jumped out of my cousin's arms (he's pretty tall) and Chip fell on that same leg on concrete and his leg was stunned. He was unable to stand or walk for about 10 minutes and was yelping. After that he just shook it off but I'm wondering if an injury can cause an LP problem or maybe it's possible he is just used to limping and just does. Sometimes, I wish they could talk!!!

YES - LP can be a result of injury...sorry to say

I give and recommend Cosiquin and YES I would give to all my dogs whether they show signs or not.

"If" Chip continues to limp, it means his knee is either bothering him and/or hurting him. I would bring him to a Board Cert. Ortho Specialist for a consult

Miao · 01-20-2009, 12:23 PM

TLC, would you opt for surgery with a LP graded at 1 maybe going on 2 by a board certified orthopedic surgeon? Especially if he thinks the "wait and see" approach is not a good idea, but that it's surgery better done now rather than later? Also, with the other leg which has thus far shown no symptom, but graded as a 1 because it can be luxated manually, and is said that it would be a good idea to get them both done at the same time if we're doing the other side anyway. What would you do especially when the doctors make it sound like recovery's great and it's pretty much happily ever after? :/

TLC · 01-20-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miao

TLC, would you opt for surgery with a LP graded at 1 maybe going on 2 by a board certified orthopedic surgeon? Especially if he thinks the "wait and see" approach is not a good idea, but that it's surgery better done now rather than later? Also, with the other leg which has thus far shown no symptom, but graded as a 1 because it can be luxated manually, and is said that it would be a good idea to get them both done at the same time if we're doing the other side anyway. What would you do especially when the doctors make it sound like recovery's great and it's pretty much happily ever after? :/

If NO symptoms are present, than I probably would NOT do surgery. But I would have the legs checked often. "If" symptoms appear, than I would go for surgery,

Roxy had Grade 3 and Grade 2 - She had both legs done at the same time. She had surgery done by a Board Cert. Ortho Surgeon - Recovery is ROUGH

and MUST be taken seriously.....

Miao · 01-20-2009, 01:46 PM

Up until 10 months of age, my girl had shown NO signs of LP. Upon her physical exam with vet #2 who did her FIRST round of puppy teeth pulling, she came back with a fairly loose knee. Of course, that vet didn't diagnose her with LP even after rolling her leg around like riding a bicycle during half of the consult time while we were engaged in other conversation regarding her overall health and maintenance. He did warn us to not let her jump on/off furniture as per breed problem. That night we were home, was when she first limped.

Now, we went back to the breeder referred vet #1 after exactly 1 week of the start of all of this. He did an x-ray and found the knees are still well positioned in the center. He did not grade the knees. After this exam it progressed from slipping every other day to a daily slip. At this point, I tried to limit her cat chasing and hind leg hopping and running/sliding on slippery floors. She did fine running on snow and carpet. I felt it was more of a grade 3 and feared it becoming a 4!

Finally someone on YT local to me recommended a vet#3 I came to love after just a few visits (and getting dentals round 2 done and this is almost exactly a month after the first!). I wanted a competent and HONEST doctor for her dental work. At the same time, I had trouble finding an orthopedic specialist that runs a public practice. Good thing, while booking a first appointment with this particular vet, they did say they tend to refer their clients to a board certified orthopedic specialist for LP cases as they find they get better recovery results this way. We did get the referral we wanted. During the visit with vet#3, we've had her check the knees. Afterwards, I still restricted my girl from as much cat chasing as I possibly could with both cat & dog having free run of the house, it isn't easy especially when the cat WANTS to be chased. After being contacted by and arranging an appointment with the ortho surgeon, I figured I'd let her run and play hard as she pleases to see how her knees progress by the time we see the specialist the following week. Surprisingly, the entire week she played harder on her knees/legs than usual and there were zero instances of dislocation. We were told that we were probably just "lucky".

With this morning's ortho consult, the doctor says we could do it even as soon as this Friday

. He says that some ppl worry that they've only just gone under anesthetics and are concerned about the risk of going under so soon again; he thinks that's unfounded. She did well in both of her dental surgeries, so he doesn't see there being a problem with getting her knee(s) done right away. And it's better now than waiting until Sept/Oct. which would have been when I'd have preferred to do it IF we weren't doing it immediately because I want her to enjoy all of the spring and summer months. I'd rather have her confined and restrict her movement only during the wet and cold weathers especially if it's going to be as bad as this past winter. He even said, she could probably walk fine and be off pain meds by 2 weeks depending on the dog... I thought recovery was 6-8 weeks! I actually like this orthopedic surgeon. I didn't get any bad "vibes" from him.

He said the glucosamine and hydrotherapy definitely does help some but she should definitely have surgery. Now, instead of just one like he was thinking at the start of our consult, it seems by the end of our consult he was all for doing BOTH of them and a.s.a.p.

Of course, the hubby was there and he said he's all for doing it now too if we're doing it anyway (though I thought we might wait til later in the year as she comes back WHINIER every time... after her little dental work when she's normally a very good girl

imagine getting her knees done, she'll feel she has the license to be the Queen of Whine

). He just wanted to delay it a week because we already have an appointment with the regular vet for a follow-up for her dental work this coming weekend. It's hard for me to decide right away BECAUSE she's been having a REALLY good week. Originally, I wanted to find an orthopedic surgeon RIGHT AWAY to get it done IMMEDIATELY when she was having daily knee problems, it really hurts to witness and have to restrict her most favourite thing in the whole world--annoying the cat.

Very long read, I know. Sorry, I tend to be very long winded and always have a story to tell.

As far as symptoms go... It only started after the one vet with no diagnosis played with her knee. The vet I am sticking with now who referred us to the specialist actually said her knees seem to like staying out rather than in while the specialist today said it likes staying in more than out since every time he pops it, she straightens right away and it goes right back in. The x-ray the breeder's vet did shows them both firmly in place in the center... Well, I did record the entire consult this morning, so I was going to listen over again on what the specialist has to say and talk to my regular vet and go from there. Chances are though, I think we're leaning towards getting it done within the next 2 weeks (giving an extra week for booking a time). What has me doubting is all of the readings I've done on here with their babies going through life with a grade 1/2 LP just fine.

Another thing I confirmed with the ortho is that my baby isn't too skinny. She eats lots, but I can feel her spine even when she was more fluffy as a puppy, I was always able to feel it and worried about it. The vet we refer to as the one that "broke her leg" (yeah, agitated a genetic fault) said she needed more meat on her while the others so far say she's at a good weight and the ortho says it's best that she stays as she is and she isn't too skinny, she's just genetically built that way.

So again, I don't think it can be called "NO symptom"... It happens when it gets manually agitated by a human.

Then it goes away when it gets manually "gently" repositioned again?? Or just "lucky" I suppose.

I'm not sure that my post will help anyone with like questions. :P But that is my story and my quest for a solution to help my baby. I think all surgeries are worth it especially if I'm not the one undergoing it, and yet, it's only worth it if it is a happily ever after story. The ortho assured me that there's almost no chance for it being a problem again later in her life post surgery so she should have no problem chasing the cat and sliding on the floors after healing...

TLC · 01-20-2009, 02:14 PM

HMMM.....

I did read your post and it does kinda surprise me with a few things....

First, recovery is at least 8 weeks and it is serious. Next, did the Ortho Vet tell you exactly how the surgery was going to go? Is he ONLY deepening the groove? OR is he going to cut and pin? IF he is only deepening the grove, I say NO WAY - NOT WORTH IT - If you are going to put her thru the surgery it should be the cut and pin and also deepening the groove.

LP surgery is not 100% guaranteed. She can slip and injure her knees at any point in her lifetime (before or after surgery).

After going to 2 Ortho Vets, I settled on someone, but I too said I was waiting until the next holiday weekend (which was a good 6 months) so I could have time off to help her recover. Unfortunately Roxy started to limp and carry her leg often, so we did surgery as soon as we could, which was probably about 4 months after her consult.

I would get the Cosequin and start her on that daily. I would monitor her and if she started to limp, etc...that's when I would go for surgery.

My boy TJ has LP as well, probably Grade 1 or 2 - He never limps or carries his leg. Only on occasion do I feel/hear a click in his rear legs. But I will not put him thru a major surgery like that unless he starts to have symptoms or the Vet says it has progressed to Grade 3 or 4.

...not sure if that helped or not

P.S. If you go to Ebay and search for Foam Ramps - you'll find a product that is wonderful to get for her to go up and down from the couch

Miao · 01-20-2009, 03:27 PM

She's never gone up/down the couch except when I used to get upset with her daddy (even when my tone isn't raised

) So for her sake, I'm TRYING not to get upset with him, and he just finds it amusing that she's so sensitive about that only while she pretends not to hear when I'm telling her firmly NOT to lick the cat's behind, etc. We also never encouraged her nor taught her to do stairs so that we'd have one fewer thing to worry about.

He did say that he may not be deepening the groove from what he can feel of it now but it will be a judgement call at the time they open up the joint. He will definitely be aligning the leg by cutting one of the bones, etc., pin it. The pins may or may not need to come out depending if it ends up bothering her and doesn't require her to go through the same kind of surgery again as they can easily just slice and pull with sedation and pain meds. The pins may rub up against her skin/tissue causing a rash or something along that line. It's "typically a bilateral disease so given time the left knee will be getting worse" so he foresees needing to get both done now. As it pops in and out through time, it scrapes more cartilage and "we want to preserve as much of the cartilage as possible." He did say they'd say probably around 6-8 weeks before they'd recommend to "let her go" but she should be walking well before that, just in moderation, I guess. "Physical therapy is very beneficial but not essential." He doesn't think "physical therapy by itself is going to resolve..." the problem like it may with human beings because you can't get the dog to do specific repetitive exercises that needs to be done (swimming apparently is just one part of it so it's not enough).

I've actually never heard it "click" out of place or even "click" back in for that matter. I've only seen it happen and felt it out of place.

I've been meaning to shop for area rugs and hall rugs to put into place so she'd have better grip and softer landings when she can't help but run laps chasing the cat or dashing to the door to greet someone.

That was my thought originally in that I'd wait to see if it bothers her again since it has completely STOPPED after the other check up with the vet (not sure what to expect now after the ortho's been through her leg

) But he has me concerned over deteriorating cartilage though glucosamine should help in that regard.

IF I have never been on YT and the internet wasn't such a convenient tool, I would not have any doubt in mind and think only positive can come out of putting her through surgery as the orthopedic surgeon and her new vet both seem to believe in the recovery of these little guys from a knee surgery. Our vet spoke of how well a Pom client of hers is doing after it got both knees done. My girl is currently 6lbs give or take an ounce, so maybe it's more safe for her? For myself, I tend to hate medication, surgery, doctors, dentists, you name it. But for her, I want to be able to say I know what's best for her and it's not like she can protest really, so it makes it more difficult. I want her to be able to be a dog without worries for the rest of her life.

I know it's easy for the humans to say "let's operate on her" because we don't have to feel the pain other than the pain of watching her be miserable during recovery. She LOVES running and playing even to the point of nausea as she really doesn't know her own limits. This is what makes the decision hard for me. I know later this weekend when we see her vet about her dentals and she would want to be updated on the ortho consult (I plan to just give her the mp3 of our entire conversation as it'd be easier than listening to my confusing retelling

) she will be pro immediate surgery too.

She's such a happy, energetic little girl... I am definitely NOT looking forward to her being confined and/or restricted from much movement for 2 months.

To read about how generally grade 1-2 LP's aren't usually recommended for surgery makes me worry also why our grade 1 for the one knee and grade 1 possibly going on to grade 2 one is told it should get it done "sooner rather than later".

01-07-2009, 02:49 PM	#5
tumismom Owned by Tumi & Gracie Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 2,321	i get mine from here Buy Cosequin Multi, Once A Day Supplement, For Small-Medium Dogs, Chewable Tablets Online at drugstore.com I don't think cosequin will prevent the future LP but it is for maintainence. I would talk to the vet. If he is more the grade 1, i think you should see the orthopedic surgeon. the TLC animal hospital by ft. evans rd has ortho surgeons. __________________ PROUD MOMMY OF MS.TUMI,MS.TSUBI AND MS.GRACIE! I LOVE MY BABY GIRLS!! PROUD MEMBER OF THE CRAZY CLUB!

01-07-2009, 02:53 PM	#6
tumismom Owned by Tumi & Gracie Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 2,321	here is the ortho specialist info.. VSC: Veterinary Surgical Center - Doctor Anke Langenbach - Vienna, VA __________________ PROUD MOMMY OF MS.TUMI,MS.TSUBI AND MS.GRACIE! I LOVE MY BABY GIRLS!! PROUD MEMBER OF THE CRAZY CLUB!

01-07-2009, 02:59 PM	#7
Ashley V ♥ Chip ♥ Smokey ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Leesburg Posts: 3,835	Thanks! I'll check into it. I don't think they do surgery though for a grade 2. I think it's only for 3 and 4. I could be wrong, but I think that's what I read. __________________ ~~ Chip ~~ Smokey ~*~ My heart is wrapped around their little paws Karley Marissa born 1/20/12 weighing 8 lbs 11 oz and 21.5 inches long

01-07-2009, 03:03 PM	#8
tumismom Owned by Tumi & Gracie Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 2,321	yeah..they don't need surgery for grade 2. but i would def. see the vet and also get second opinion from the orthopedic specialist. __________________ PROUD MOMMY OF MS.TUMI,MS.TSUBI AND MS.GRACIE! I LOVE MY BABY GIRLS!! PROUD MEMBER OF THE CRAZY CLUB!

01-20-2009, 01:46 PM	#13
Miao No Longer a Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Savage Garden Posts: 1,147	Up until 10 months of age, my girl had shown NO signs of LP. Upon her physical exam with vet #2 who did her FIRST round of puppy teeth pulling, she came back with a fairly loose knee. Of course, that vet didn't diagnose her with LP even after rolling her leg around like riding a bicycle during half of the consult time while we were engaged in other conversation regarding her overall health and maintenance. He did warn us to not let her jump on/off furniture as per breed problem. That night we were home, was when she first limped. Now, we went back to the breeder referred vet #1 after exactly 1 week of the start of all of this. He did an x-ray and found the knees are still well positioned in the center. He did not grade the knees. After this exam it progressed from slipping every other day to a daily slip. At this point, I tried to limit her cat chasing and hind leg hopping and running/sliding on slippery floors. She did fine running on snow and carpet. I felt it was more of a grade 3 and feared it becoming a 4! Finally someone on YT local to me recommended a vet#3 I came to love after just a few visits (and getting dentals round 2 done and this is almost exactly a month after the first!). I wanted a competent and HONEST doctor for her dental work. At the same time, I had trouble finding an orthopedic specialist that runs a public practice. Good thing, while booking a first appointment with this particular vet, they did say they tend to refer their clients to a board certified orthopedic specialist for LP cases as they find they get better recovery results this way. We did get the referral we wanted. During the visit with vet#3, we've had her check the knees. Afterwards, I still restricted my girl from as much cat chasing as I possibly could with both cat & dog having free run of the house, it isn't easy especially when the cat WANTS to be chased. After being contacted by and arranging an appointment with the ortho surgeon, I figured I'd let her run and play hard as she pleases to see how her knees progress by the time we see the specialist the following week. Surprisingly, the entire week she played harder on her knees/legs than usual and there were zero instances of dislocation. We were told that we were probably just "lucky". With this morning's ortho consult, the doctor says we could do it even as soon as this Friday . He says that some ppl worry that they've only just gone under anesthetics and are concerned about the risk of going under so soon again; he thinks that's unfounded. She did well in both of her dental surgeries, so he doesn't see there being a problem with getting her knee(s) done right away. And it's better now than waiting until Sept/Oct. which would have been when I'd have preferred to do it IF we weren't doing it immediately because I want her to enjoy all of the spring and summer months. I'd rather have her confined and restrict her movement only during the wet and cold weathers especially if it's going to be as bad as this past winter. He even said, she could probably walk fine and be off pain meds by 2 weeks depending on the dog... I thought recovery was 6-8 weeks! I actually like this orthopedic surgeon. I didn't get any bad "vibes" from him. He said the glucosamine and hydrotherapy definitely does help some but she should definitely have surgery. Now, instead of just one like he was thinking at the start of our consult, it seems by the end of our consult he was all for doing BOTH of them and a.s.a.p. Of course, the hubby was there and he said he's all for doing it now too if we're doing it anyway (though I thought we might wait til later in the year as she comes back WHINIER every time... after her little dental work when she's normally a very good girl imagine getting her knees done, she'll feel she has the license to be the Queen of Whine ). He just wanted to delay it a week because we already have an appointment with the regular vet for a follow-up for her dental work this coming weekend. It's hard for me to decide right away BECAUSE she's been having a REALLY good week. Originally, I wanted to find an orthopedic surgeon RIGHT AWAY to get it done IMMEDIATELY when she was having daily knee problems, it really hurts to witness and have to restrict her most favourite thing in the whole world--annoying the cat. Very long read, I know. Sorry, I tend to be very long winded and always have a story to tell. As far as symptoms go... It only started after the one vet with no diagnosis played with her knee. The vet I am sticking with now who referred us to the specialist actually said her knees seem to like staying out rather than in while the specialist today said it likes staying in more than out since every time he pops it, she straightens right away and it goes right back in. The x-ray the breeder's vet did shows them both firmly in place in the center... Well, I did record the entire consult this morning, so I was going to listen over again on what the specialist has to say and talk to my regular vet and go from there. Chances are though, I think we're leaning towards getting it done within the next 2 weeks (giving an extra week for booking a time). What has me doubting is all of the readings I've done on here with their babies going through life with a grade 1/2 LP just fine. Another thing I confirmed with the ortho is that my baby isn't too skinny. She eats lots, but I can feel her spine even when she was more fluffy as a puppy, I was always able to feel it and worried about it. The vet we refer to as the one that "broke her leg" (yeah, agitated a genetic fault) said she needed more meat on her while the others so far say she's at a good weight and the ortho says it's best that she stays as she is and she isn't too skinny, she's just genetically built that way. So again, I don't think it can be called "NO symptom"... It happens when it gets manually agitated by a human. Then it goes away when it gets manually "gently" repositioned again?? Or just "lucky" I suppose. I'm not sure that my post will help anyone with like questions. :P But that is my story and my quest for a solution to help my baby. I think all surgeries are worth it especially if I'm not the one undergoing it, and yet, it's only worth it if it is a happily ever after story. The ortho assured me that there's almost no chance for it being a problem again later in her life post surgery so she should have no problem chasing the cat and sliding on the floors after healing... Last edited by Miao; 01-20-2009 at 01:49 PM. Reason: correct some spelling errors

01-07-2009, 11:02 AM	#1
Ashley V ♥ Chip ♥ Smokey ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Leesburg Posts: 3,835	luxating patella What are the signs and symptoms of LP and what is the difference between the grades? What are the treatment options for each grade? __________________ ~~ Chip ~~ Smokey ~*~ My heart is wrapped around their little paws Karley Marissa born 1/20/12 weighing 8 lbs 11 oz and 21.5 inches long

01-07-2009, 02:28 PM	#2
Ashley V ♥ Chip ♥ Smokey ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Leesburg Posts: 3,835	So no one out of the many people that have gone through this, have any information or advice to offer? I think Chip might have an LP grade 1/2 and I would like some information if someone has the time to offer some. Also, someone on another forum suggested supplements for joints... does anyone have one that they recommend and would possibly help since his leg isn't bad? __________________ ~~ Chip ~~ Smokey ~*~ My heart is wrapped around their little paws Karley Marissa born 1/20/12 weighing 8 lbs 11 oz and 21.5 inches long

01-07-2009, 02:33 PM	#3
tumismom Owned by Tumi & Gracie Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 2,321	both tumi and gracie have LP grade 1. They don't need surgery and the walk and jump and do everything fine. Grade 1 means their knees sometimes pop out but then pop back in on it's own..They are on Cosequin regular strengh. they each get half a tab a day which is according to their weight. I did not notice anything in them until their yearly check up and the vet told me. but she said not to worry. but if they are grade 3 or 4 then, they do need a surgery. __________________ PROUD MOMMY OF MS.TUMI,MS.TSUBI AND MS.GRACIE! I LOVE MY BABY GIRLS!! PROUD MEMBER OF THE CRAZY CLUB!

01-20-2009, 12:05 PM	#9
Miao No Longer a Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Savage Garden Posts: 1,147	Over here, the orthopedic specialist is very willing to do surgery for grade 1-2. I suppose it's a judgement call depending on the person, dog, and doctor.

01-20-2009, 12:23 PM	#11
Miao No Longer a Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Savage Garden Posts: 1,147	TLC, would you opt for surgery with a LP graded at 1 maybe going on 2 by a board certified orthopedic surgeon? Especially if he thinks the "wait and see" approach is not a good idea, but that it's surgery better done now rather than later? Also, with the other leg which has thus far shown no symptom, but graded as a 1 because it can be luxated manually, and is said that it would be a good idea to get them both done at the same time if we're doing the other side anyway. What would you do especially when the doctors make it sound like recovery's great and it's pretty much happily ever after? :/

01-20-2009, 02:14 PM	#14
TLC Slave to My Rug-Rats Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 7,247	HMMM..... I did read your post and it does kinda surprise me with a few things.... First, recovery is at least 8 weeks and it is serious. Next, did the Ortho Vet tell you exactly how the surgery was going to go? Is he ONLY deepening the groove? OR is he going to cut and pin? IF he is only deepening the grove, I say NO WAY - NOT WORTH IT - If you are going to put her thru the surgery it should be the cut and pin and also deepening the groove. LP surgery is not 100% guaranteed. She can slip and injure her knees at any point in her lifetime (before or after surgery). After going to 2 Ortho Vets, I settled on someone, but I too said I was waiting until the next holiday weekend (which was a good 6 months) so I could have time off to help her recover. Unfortunately Roxy started to limp and carry her leg often, so we did surgery as soon as we could, which was probably about 4 months after her consult. I would get the Cosequin and start her on that daily. I would monitor her and if she started to limp, etc...that's when I would go for surgery. My boy TJ has LP as well, probably Grade 1 or 2 - He never limps or carries his leg. Only on occasion do I feel/hear a click in his rear legs. But I will not put him thru a major surgery like that unless he starts to have symptoms or the Vet says it has progressed to Grade 3 or 4. ...not sure if that helped or not P.S. If you go to Ebay and search for Foam Ramps - you'll find a product that is wonderful to get for her to go up and down from the couch __________________ Adopt Donate Foster www.yorkie911rescue.com Last edited by TLC; 01-20-2009 at 02:15 PM.

01-20-2009, 03:27 PM	#15
Miao No Longer a Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Savage Garden Posts: 1,147	She's never gone up/down the couch except when I used to get upset with her daddy (even when my tone isn't raised ) So for her sake, I'm TRYING not to get upset with him, and he just finds it amusing that she's so sensitive about that only while she pretends not to hear when I'm telling her firmly NOT to lick the cat's behind, etc. We also never encouraged her nor taught her to do stairs so that we'd have one fewer thing to worry about. He did say that he may not be deepening the groove from what he can feel of it now but it will be a judgement call at the time they open up the joint. He will definitely be aligning the leg by cutting one of the bones, etc., pin it. The pins may or may not need to come out depending if it ends up bothering her and doesn't require her to go through the same kind of surgery again as they can easily just slice and pull with sedation and pain meds. The pins may rub up against her skin/tissue causing a rash or something along that line. It's "typically a bilateral disease so given time the left knee will be getting worse" so he foresees needing to get both done now. As it pops in and out through time, it scrapes more cartilage and "we want to preserve as much of the cartilage as possible." He did say they'd say probably around 6-8 weeks before they'd recommend to "let her go" but she should be walking well before that, just in moderation, I guess. "Physical therapy is very beneficial but not essential." He doesn't think "physical therapy by itself is going to resolve..." the problem like it may with human beings because you can't get the dog to do specific repetitive exercises that needs to be done (swimming apparently is just one part of it so it's not enough). I've actually never heard it "click" out of place or even "click" back in for that matter. I've only seen it happen and felt it out of place. I've been meaning to shop for area rugs and hall rugs to put into place so she'd have better grip and softer landings when she can't help but run laps chasing the cat or dashing to the door to greet someone. That was my thought originally in that I'd wait to see if it bothers her again since it has completely STOPPED after the other check up with the vet (not sure what to expect now after the ortho's been through her leg ) But he has me concerned over deteriorating cartilage though glucosamine should help in that regard. IF I have never been on YT and the internet wasn't such a convenient tool, I would not have any doubt in mind and think only positive can come out of putting her through surgery as the orthopedic surgeon and her new vet both seem to believe in the recovery of these little guys from a knee surgery. Our vet spoke of how well a Pom client of hers is doing after it got both knees done. My girl is currently 6lbs give or take an ounce, so maybe it's more safe for her? For myself, I tend to hate medication, surgery, doctors, dentists, you name it. But for her, I want to be able to say I know what's best for her and it's not like she can protest really, so it makes it more difficult. I want her to be able to be a dog without worries for the rest of her life. I know it's easy for the humans to say "let's operate on her" because we don't have to feel the pain other than the pain of watching her be miserable during recovery. She LOVES running and playing even to the point of nausea as she really doesn't know her own limits. This is what makes the decision hard for me. I know later this weekend when we see her vet about her dentals and she would want to be updated on the ortho consult (I plan to just give her the mp3 of our entire conversation as it'd be easier than listening to my confusing retelling ) she will be pro immediate surgery too. She's such a happy, energetic little girl... I am definitely NOT looking forward to her being confined and/or restricted from much movement for 2 months. To read about how generally grade 1-2 LP's aren't usually recommended for surgery makes me worry also why our grade 1 for the one knee and grade 1 possibly going on to grade 2 one is told it should get it done "sooner rather than later".