Abnormal Labwork AGAIN! :(

[TLC]

Roxy's BATs are in the range of 60 to 100 and she has no symptoms (well she does but they are subtle and you have to know it to see it).

Homemade is so tricky when you don't have the correct supplements. I had a nutritionist look at what I was feeding her and he balanced and gave me the portions.

I have learned so much from the folks at the Yahoo group as far as supplements go. DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

Roxy gets her main meal which consists of friendship low sodium cottage cheese, egg noodles and a veggie puree (organic carrots, celery, green bell pepper and zucchini). I add the supplements and vitamins, fish oil and canola oil. She eats this 2x a day.

In the morning she gets 1/2 of a Hapto Support capsules, .5ml of Vetri DMG, 1 Vit E oil (100 iu), 1/2 Cosiquin capsule.

Before I leave for work she gets a few pieces of apple.

Dinner she gets the mixture and I add 1/4 teaspoon of Aloe Vera Gel, 1/2 Hepato Support, 1/4 BioPecterin tablet.

Later she gets Romaine Lettuce as a snack.

Occasionally she will get a grain free cookie.

For good poop potty (reformed poop eater) she will get 1 All natural peanut butter chip.

....PM me your private email addy

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

Should I go ahead and start supplements too or wait for the vet? From the "Liver Disease" thread, I gather she probably needs to be on Milk thistle, vitamin E, and Vetri-dmg. Looking at the ingredients in the NB Vegetarian, vitamin E isn't in it.

Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Peas, Potato Protein, Canola Oil, Potatoes, Tomato Pomace, Vegetable Flavoring, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Spinach, Parsley Flakes, Cranberries, L-Lysine, L-Carnitine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-2 Supplement, Folic Acid.


Also, I'm guessing that since she is absolutely 100% ASSYMPTOMATIC, chicken, rice, and possibly even turkey would be okay for her too? (Brown rice is in the NB.)

Since her pre is soooo high, you may want to stay away from chicken and turkey until you know more. It is really your (and your vets) call.

When Ellie's post was 47, her vet consulted an internist who said low protein, Denosyl and 400 IU of vitamin E daily.

Now Ellie gets low-moderate protein and Denosyl.
If I were to be strict with her, she would get low protein food, Denosyl or Vetri DMG, milk thistle, vitamin E and fish oil. Not just any fish oil will work though. Ellie's nutritionist says, "Omega 3 fatty acids: specifically EPA and DHA (not just any "fish oil") may promote a less inflammatory response. The therapeutic dose is not known but the minimum is probably in the range of 50 mg/kg BW per day for at least 3 wks when attempting to alter tissue levels. Your dog should receive a minimm of 130 mg per day. Because your current fish oil product contains 300 mg of EPA + DHA per 1000 mg capsule of fish oil, you need only feed one capsule every other day." She goes on to say it is important to be careful about what fish oil you choose because some aren't monitored for contaminants and potency. She likes USP approved products (you can Google it) and I think some vet products are good also. This was from Dr. Remillard.

Not sure if there is much difference between white and red potatoes nutritionally...

[TLC]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Since her pre is soooo high, you may want to stay away from chicken and turkey until you know more. It is really your (and your vets) call.

When Ellie's post was 47, her vet consulted an internist who said low protein, Denosyl and 400 IU of vitamin E daily.

Now Ellie gets low-moderate protein and Denosyl.
If I were to be strict with her, she would get low protein food, Denosyl or Vetri DMG, milk thistle, vitamin E and fish oil. Not just any fish oil will work though. Ellie's nutritionist says, "Omega 3 fatty acids: specifically EPA and DHA (not just any "fish oil") may promote a less inflammatory response. The therapeutic dose is not known but the minimum is probably in the range of 50 mg/kg BW per day for at least 3 wks when attempting to alter tissue levels. Your dog should receive a minimm of 130 mg per day. Because your current fish oil product contains 300 mg of EPA + DHA per 1000 mg capsule of fish oil, you need only feed one capsule every other day." She goes on to say it is important to be careful about what fish oil you choose because some aren't monitored for contaminants and potency. She likes USP approved products (you can Google it) and I think some vet products are good also. This was from Dr. Remillard.

Not sure if there is much difference between white and red potatoes nutritionally...

hmmmm....I give Roxy fish oil capsules that I get from Costco...now I have to look if they are USP approved

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Since her pre is soooo high, you may want to stay away from chicken and turkey until you know more. It is really your (and your vets) call.

When Ellie's post was 47, her vet consulted an internist who said low protein, Denosyl and 400 IU of vitamin E daily.

Now Ellie gets low-moderate protein and Denosyl.
If I were to be strict with her, she would get low protein food, Denosyl or Vetri DMG, milk thistle, vitamin E and fish oil. Not just any fish oil will work though.

So you don't give her milk thistle, vitamin E, or fish oil then? No Lactulose either...I've read about giving that too?

I think I'll go with NB Veg and mashed potatoes until I have consulted and have a specific plan. Maybe I should wait on the supplements until I know more??

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

So you don't give her milk thistle, vitamin E, or fish oil then? No Lactulose either...I've read about giving that too?

I think I'll go with NB Veg and mashed potatoes until I have consulted and have a specific plan. Maybe I should wait on the supplements until I know more??

I do not but she really should have them and we may go back to it.
Her ALT has been great and her internist wasn't too concerned (just baffled).
Milk thistle, Denosyl (or Vetri DMG), vitamin e and omegas aren't going to hurt. Ellie doesn't really have neurologic issues, so we don't do lactulose but I'm sure that wouldn't hurt either.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by TLC

hmmmm....I give Roxy fish oil capsules that I get from Costco...now I have to look if they are USP approved

I think she wrote that because it is so easy to just go buy any product and some of those aren't tested or watched closely. If you want to go with a human supplement, I'd get one that is USP approved (the system is VERY confusing to me). I think there are veterinary products that are just fine also.

And that 130 mg thing was for Ellie's weight, so would have to be refigured for other dogs...

[bellasmomok]

May I also ask what treats Ellie gets? Are there any commercial dog biscuits, etc... that are ok? I give Bella a treat when she is left at home alone as a "pacifier". (She can get sassy....for instance, if I were to come home then leave again within the hour, or if I were to run in at luch to grab something and right back out, never seeing her or letting her out, she will PEE on the floor! This isn't because she has to pee, she uses her pads just fine any other time...more of an excitable angry response I think.)
It will be difficult to use human food (green beans/apple/watermelon) as this type of treat as I will end up with a mess!

Also, it may be important to know that if she poops and I don't catch it right away, she shreds it!! I know know if she actually eats any (though I do know she has eaten all of it in the not so distant past...I've only had her for 5 mo.) or if she's playing with it or what?? It is very frustrating and plain old gross that she does this!!

Speaking of eating poop, I'm working on the teeth issue. She does have a little yellow plaque on a couple of what I think are pre-molars. If I'm honest, I would say that I "brush" her teeth with cotton pads saturated in a solution (they came that way) sporadically at best. What do you think of Maxiguard oral cleansing gel?? MAXIGUARD Oral Cleansing Gel - Trusted Pet Pharmacy Along with CET mini toothbrush and CET vanilla mint enzymatic toothpaste?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

May I also ask what treats Ellie gets? Are there any commercial dog biscuits, etc... that are ok? I give Bella a treat when she is left at home alone as a "pacifier". (She can get sassy....for instance, if I were to come home then leave again within the hour, or if I were to run in at luch to grab something and right back out, never seeing her or letting her out, she will PEE on the floor! This isn't because she has to pee, she uses her pads just fine any other time...more of an excitable angry response I think.)
It will be difficult to use human food (green beans/apple/watermelon) as this type of treat as I will end up with a mess!

Also, it may be important to know that if she poops and I don't catch it right away, she shreds it!! I know know if she actually eats any (though I do know she has eaten all of it in the not so distant past...I've only had her for 5 mo.) or if she's playing with it or what?? It is very frustrating and plain old gross that she does this!!

Speaking of eating poop, I'm working on the teeth issue. She does have a little yellow plaque on a couple of what I think are pre-molars. If I'm honest, I would say that I "brush" her teeth with cotton pads saturated in a solution (they came that way) sporadically at best. What do you think of Maxiguard oral cleansing gel?? MAXIGUARD Oral Cleansing Gel - Trusted Pet Pharmacy Along with CET mini toothbrush and CET vanilla mint enzymatic toothpaste?

I've never used MaxiGuard.
We use CET toothpaste and a toddler toothbrush.
Liver issues can affect their teeth.

Ellie gets whatever for treats as long as she isn't allergic, her pancreas isn't going to be set off by it and it isn't going to be a big problem for her liver. That is usually lettuce, banana, apple, bell peppers... I bake her treats also. d Peeing on the floor when she knows you are going to leave is separation anxiety.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I've never used MaxiGuard.
We use CET toothpaste and a toddler toothbrush.
Liver issues can affect their teeth.

Ellie gets whatever for treats as long as she isn't allergic, her pancreas isn't going to be set off by it and it isn't going to be a big problem for her liver. That is usually lettuce, banana, apple, bell peppers... I bake her treats also. d Peeing on the floor when she knows you are going to leave is separation anxiety.

Thank you for letting me know how you decide on treats.

Yes, it probably is a form of it. When I first got her, she had the most terrible separation anxiety EVER!!! The first thing I was told was to let her cry it out and I'm certain that she spent ALL of those hours crying as she was still crying when I got back home. You cannot imagine the sleeplessness, sadness, frustration I had in the beginning.

Now, she is just fine when I leave in the morning for work; she is fine if I come home for an hour or more before I leave to go to Walmart; etc..

The only time I have the separation anxiety (or something akin) problem is if I'm gone, come home for not long enough for her, and then leave again. Usually she pees next to the door, but once she peed on my bed! (I keep her in my bedroom when I'm gone.) This includes coming home and then having to run back out to the car for something....pee on the floor next to the screen door. I have to take her with me any of these times for fear of having to clean up pee. I know this is a completely separate issue, but I really don't know how to make it better! It makes me sad....I know she's sad whenever she can't be with me. She's ok after I'm gone for awhile, but right away she's sad.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

May I also ask what treats Ellie gets? Are there any commercial dog biscuits, etc... that are ok? I give Bella a treat when she is left at home alone as a "pacifier". (She can get sassy....for instance, if I were to come home then leave again within the hour, or if I were to run in at luch to grab something and right back out, never seeing her or letting her out, she will PEE on the floor! This isn't because she has to pee, she uses her pads just fine any other time...more of an excitable angry response I think.)
It will be difficult to use human food (green beans/apple/watermelon) as this type of treat as I will end up with a mess!

Also, it may be important to know that if she poops and I don't catch it right away, she shreds it!! I know know if she actually eats any (though I do know she has eaten all of it in the not so distant past...I've only had her for 5 mo.) or if she's playing with it or what?? It is very frustrating and plain old gross that she does this!!

Speaking of eating poop, I'm working on the teeth issue. She does have a little yellow plaque on a couple of what I think are pre-molars. If I'm honest, I would say that I "brush" her teeth with cotton pads saturated in a solution (they came that way) sporadically at best. What do you think of Maxiguard oral cleansing gel?? MAXIGUARD Oral Cleansing Gel - Trusted Pet Pharmacy Along with CET mini toothbrush and CET vanilla mint enzymatic toothpaste?

does the cet vanilla mint have xylitol in it ? make sure that does not as i use poultry cet and maxguard was recommended to me by dentist but also chlorhexedine is another thing that is good but if you are seeing alot of tartar get a dental as my demi had alot of tartar and loose teeth and had to have 27 teeth removed due to gum diseaes It is good to brush but if you start to see alot of tartar get the dental done

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by dwerten

does the cet vanilla mint have xylitol in it ? make sure that does not as i use poultry cet and maxguard was recommended to me by dentist but also chlorhexedine is another thing that is good but if you are seeing alot of tartar get a dental as my demi had alot of tartar and loose teeth and had to have 27 teeth removed due to gum diseaes It is good to brush but if you start to see alot of tartar get the dental done

No it has sorbitol in it...I had the company read me the ingredients

She is only 7 mo. old right now, so I don't think we ought to do a dental just yet. Every evening I have been holding her and scraping at it softly with my finger nail and it comes right off. It's a hard-ish texture, but it comes off pretty easily. There's a little that's in a ridge and I can't get to it, but I think it will come off with a little brushing. I looks like to me that only that tooth on both the left and right sides of her mouth have any yellow tartar. All the others are sparkly white!

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by dwerten

does the cet vanilla mint have xylitol in it ? make sure that does not as i use poultry cet and maxguard was recommended to me by dentist but also chlorhexedine is another thing that is good but if you are seeing alot of tartar get a dental as my demi had alot of tartar and loose teeth and had to have 27 teeth removed due to gum diseaes It is good to brush but if you start to see alot of tartar get the dental done

It does not contain xylitol.
CET water additive does and I would absolutely not recommend it.
I like the vanilla-mint because for one it smell like root beer floats and the poultry contains poultry digest and I imagine the other flavors have meat ingredients in them too.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

You can also do peeled and boiled potato and sweet potato.
Can you mash up a small amount of potato and mix it with the NB to get her to eat?

Yesterday I joined the DogLiverDisease Yahoo group and filled out my new member questionnaire, complete with all lab values, diet, etc... I have been telling you that her BUN was normal because it was 25 with a normal range of 7-27, but apparently Olga (the moderator) felt that was actually too high. She said that she "would not recommend [*adding mashed potato to her NB Vegetarian to make it more appealing to her*] because of her BUN number. Try soaking the NB vegetarian in water so that it soaks up the water (distilled is preferred)-some dogs like it this way." I have a question in to find out why potato is not okay but haven't heard anything back yet.

Anyone know why it's not okay?? I tried soaking it in water this morning and she ate it right up, but I tried that again around 1:00 and she wouldn't touch it. Around 4:00 she walked over to where her dry food is sprinkled on the floor (she won't eat dry food from a bowl and seems to eat it much better if none of the pieces are touching each other ), picked up a piece, walked over to where my boyfriend was sitting on the floor, and set it down. Then she looked at me and wanted to play. I tried to get her to eat it, but she wasn't interested. *sigh! How am I supposed to get her to eat 3-4 times per day if she doesn't want to eat it???!! Sooooo, I've thought about buying a few grocery items (celery, carrots, etc...--suggestions WELCOME!) and boiling it all to make a broth, which I would then be able to poor over her food to let it soak and make it more appealing, hopefully. Would that be okay?? Could I put chicken in there....i.e. is chicken broth ok even though chicken is not? Also, is her BUN considered high? I'm going to have a urinalysis done ASAP (Thanksgiving is next week, so I don't know if I'll be able to do it then) to make sure there aren't any crystals.

Any suggestions?.......I'm open to anything! I don't want to feed my baby something that's dumping toxins into her system, but at the same time I want her to enjoy her food and get to be as normal as it is possible for her to be. Help!

[bellasmomok]

I'm looking for biscuit type treats that would be okay for her. When I leave her home alone she stays in my carpeted bedroom which isn't conducive to using apple bits, watermelon, etc... Since she does still have some separation anxiety, a treat seems to help when I leave. I have been looking at ingredients in a commercial dog treats (Sojos brand) and will list them here. Please give me an opinion on whether the ingredients are okay or if I just need to stay away. Also, I am more than willing to bake treats for her, so if anyone has a recipe that would be okay for an assymptomatic liver compromised dog, I would be super ultra grateful!!! Here are those ingredients:

Garlic Veggie
Ingredients: rye flour, oat bran, spinach, carrots, broccoli, celery, garlic powder, canola oil, eggs, baking powder.
Guaranteed Analysis: crude protein 11.0% min., crude fat 1.0% min., crude fiber 3.7% max., moisture 9.8% max.

Peanut Butter Honey
Ingredients: rye flour, oat bran, chopped peanuts, peanut butter, canola oil, eggs, honey, baking powder.
Guaranteed Analysis: crude protein 12.0% min., crude fat 11.7% min., crude fiber 2.4% max., moisture 9.8% max

Chicken Pot Pie
Ingredients: oat flour, rolled oats, chicken broth, potato flour, carrots, celery, oil, eggs, baking powder
Guaranteed Analysis: crude protein 10.7% min., crude fat 8.5% min., crude fiber 3.1% max., moisture 9.9% max.

Peanut Butter & Jelly
Ingredients: oat flour, rolled oats, peanut butter, strawberries, oil, eggs, baking powder
Guaranteed Analysis: crude protein 14.0% min., crude fat 15.0% min., crude fiber 2.7% max., moisture 8.0% max.

Apple Dumpling
Ingredients: oat flour, rolled oats, apples, oil, cinnamon, vanilla, eggs, honey, baking powder
Guaranteed Analysis: crude protein 11.1% min., crude fat 11.4% min., crude fiber 4.1% max., moisture 8.0% max.

Blueberry Cobbler
Ingredients: oat flour, rolled oats, blueberries, oil, vanilla, eggs, honey, baking powder
Guaranteed Analysis: crude protein 11.5% min., crude fat 16.4% min., crude fiber 5.1% max., moisture 7.5% max.

Monzies
Ingredients: Organic Rye Flour, Organic Oat Bran, Organic Molasses, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Sesame Seeds, Vegetable Broth, Garlic, Kelp, Baking Powder.
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein 10.0% min., Crude Fat 9.5% min., Crude Fiber 2.5% max., Moisture 10.0% max.

What do you think?

[Yorkieluv]

Hi Tara I actually responded to your thread on the yahoo group at about 5am this morning, so might go back in there to check...It's a LOT of info, so I would rather not retype it. LOL I hope it helps answer some of your questions...