Abnormal Labwork AGAIN! :(

[Yorkieluv]

From the "Liver disease" thread:


Ok, thanks for the clarification. Yes, I will be doing further testing, but I hadn't thought about this change being temporary.....I had thought that this was her fate since her numbers were abnormal. Is there still a chance that she won't need this forever??

The reason I said temporary until you do further testing or retest is in case her BAT comes back completely in normal range when you re-do it.

Is there any chance at all that her UTI caused her BUN to be high normal and caused her bile acids to be off (or her BAT was off because she smelled food before her pre--which I'm pretty sure she did--and/or because it was lipemic or hemolyzed??) and that her ALT is off because she is a puppy??

UTI is a symptom of liver disease, so while I suppose it may be possible the BUN could be affected by the UTI, the UTI could also/still be caused by liver issues. BUN is affected by liver issues as well.
The pre number is the one that's affected by smelling food, not the post number which is the one that I pay most attention to in most cases...
If hemolysis occurred, it would be on the bottom of the lab report.
I don't know about her ALT being that off just because she's a puppy. It really does not seem likely to me. When Miko was a pup and he was sick with his liver problems, his ALT was in the 200-300s as well...

I'd love to have some hope, but I understand if it would be false hope. Maybe I need to have her tests redone?? If so, when? (She is on Baytril for 10 days for her UTI, so her last dose will be on Friday, Dec. 5th. Her urine is already LOT better!! Yay!! I will be doing another ultrasound on her kidneys myself probably Tues. night--so I can see them before her vet appointment on Wed.--I'm hoping to see that the hydronephrosis I saw previously, which is a sign of a UTI, will be resolved! If it isn't, I'll do it once more after her dose is complete just to see.....I'm also wondering if I should do another urinalysis....I guess I'll know if I need to do that if her urine gets darker when she's completed the meds???

For future reference, clavamox comes in pills as well

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

I remember reading that "chicken fat" listed as an ingredient is totally different in terms of allergies anyway than chicken or chicken meal. I believe I read someone say that dogs are normally allergic to the protein but that the chicken fat wouldn't cause an allergy if the dog were allergic to chicken. Is that right??

The reason I ask is that I have been wondering if I could boil chicken and then use the "broth" to soak her kibble in instead of just plain water?? I think the water would take on the taste of the chicken and might make it more appealing to her? (I of course wouldn't give her the chicken.)

In addition to apple bits and watermelon, I have been occasionally giving her a cucumber bit.....is cucumber ok? She LOVES it! I didn't think this one would be bad, but I wanted to check. She also loves green beans, so I'm planning to have some of those ready too for a snack. I've talked to someone about oats being high in purines (I think??), so are those a no-no because of her ALT or because of her BUN? She loves dry cereal (I have given her a rice chex before, but they contain sugar, etc... so I'll need to find something else.....maybe a kashi product--they have pretty limited ingredients) so I'd love to be able to have something like that she could have.

Also, is celery bad? I've never tried it, so I don't know if she'd like it, but I know it's basically like eating water for humans, so I wondered if it would be ok to try with her??

Celery and cucumber in moderation should be okay. It's not that raw carrots are bad for liver compromised dogs at all. It's that dogs do not have the enzymes to break down vegetables, so veggies need to be either pulverized like in a food processor or cooked.

I actually used to give Miko food processed celery every once in awhile, particularly when he was having serious stone issues.
Purines should be taken into consideration for symptomatic liver compromised dogs and/OR especially for liver compromised dogs with a history of UTI, crystals, or stones regardless of other symptoms.
UTI/bladder issue is considered a symptom.

Hopefully, when you re-do Bella's tests, everything will come back normal.

Is there any possible way that she could have gotten into anything she shouldn't have?
What kind of flea stuff do you use?

[bellasmomok]

QUOTE=Ellie May
...could you give me her BAT results again and the second ALT? Wasn't it like 4? post and ALT 2?? ?
Her pre BAT was 243 and post was 72.6. Her 2nd ALT was 347.
Is Bella allergic to chicken?
Is that why you are avoiding it or is it because you don't want her liver to have to process it?
I guess I've been avoiding it because I'm afraid it will add a lot of toxins to her system. I know red meat is the worst, but people have been telling me that chicken should still be avoided in her case, I'm guess because her values were so high?? It would sure make me a lot happier if she could have chicken....I'd really like it if she liked what she eats instead of having to entice her to eat. I may have Dr. Coleman re-do her Blood Chem at the same time they are drawing for the Protein C to see if her BUN came down when the UTI is gone. Since she was just spayed 4 wks ago and was dehydrated at that point, it might be safe to assume she could have gotten a UTI then and I just didn't catch it until now?? I've never had to look for one, so I didn't know....

I had read that same thing about chicken fat not causing allergy issues but haven't confirmed.
I'm still wondering if I could sort of make my own broth by boiling chicken, and perhaps celery and carrots and then use that "broth" to soak her food in instead of plain water? I would think she'd like that flavor much better...

QUOTE=Yorkieluv
Celery and cucumber in moderation should be okay. It's not that raw carrots are bad for liver compromised dogs at all. It's that dogs do not have the enzymes to break down vegetables, so veggies need to be either pulverized like in a food processor or cooked.
Ahhhh....now I get it! That makes sense. So if you gave your dog raw veggies, would it just pass on through since they can't break it down, or would it passing on through cause any toxins to build up? I bet she'd like cooked carrots, I'll have to try it.
I actually used to give Miko food processed celery every once in awhile, particularly when he was having serious stone issues.
Purines should be taken into consideration for symptomatic liver compromised dogs and/OR especially for liver compromised dogs with a history of UTI, crystals, or stones regardless of other symptoms.
UTI/bladder issue is considered a symptom.

Hopefully, when you re-do Bella's tests, everything will come back normal.

Is there any possible way that she could have gotten into anything she shouldn't have?
What kind of flea stuff do you use?
Well, as far as I know she only ate things I gave her (or dropped, e.g. kettle corn and popcorn)--I know she had a few pieces of kettle corn and a couple of spoonfuls of plain vanilla ice cream before her labs. She also had broccoli....can't think of anything else. As far as flea meds, I have used Frontline spray, but I hadn't used that for a couple of months or so before her labs....I decided to d/c it until I find fleas so I'm not just pooring toxins on her body. Same things with her Interceptor...she hadn't had it for 3-ish weeks before her labs, and I'll d/c it when it's safe to do so, which it still isn't here. I think her Dec. dose will be the last one for awhile. And she isn't vaccinated for Bordatella, and the only way I'd even consider that is if she had to be boarded for more than 1 day, but I don't really see that happening.

Thank you both for all your input! It has helped so much to have someone to turn to with all my questions.

[Ladymom]

I'm not sure why you are afraid to give her chicken if she isn't allergic to it. A lot of the recipes for liver compromised dogs, including the one Lady is on, call for chicken. Fish and chicken produce a little more ammonia than protein from dairy products, but are still fine to feed.

Have I posted this for you before? We have had so many new members with possible liver disease dogs lately I can't keep them straight.

Liver | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

[Ellie May]

Not sure about the broth and if it would affect the liver the same but my guess is if you want to avoid chicken, you should avoid broth also.

Have you tried something like potato or sweet potato mixed with kibble to get her to eat?
Not sure of the purines in that though but I think it is an acceptable level.
I had forgotten that her pre was so high.
With the pre and post both high, something would've had to go wrong with the draw both times for them both to be elevated without an underlying problem. That and the ALT being so high, my guess would be this problem isn't going to go away...

I agree that the UTI could be secondary to the liver issue and hopefully the BUN has gone back to normal. I think I'd redue it if you are concerned. Because she doesn't have stones but she did have the UTI and is having some sort of kidney/bladder issue, it may be a good idea to use Azodyl before a bigger problem starts...

[bellasmomok]

QUOTE=Ellie May
Have you tried something like potato or sweet potato mixed with kibble to get her to eat?
I have, and she likes that just fine. I just didn't want to overdo it on the potato....I read things like "potatoes are starchy and harder to digest" and that potato has too much potassium and sweet potato too much manganese...I soak both kinds in water for at least 3 hrs. then boil then mash. And I sometimes mix in a tiny bit of skim milk or distilled water to make it "creamier" so it mixes better with the kibble.
I had forgotten that her pre was so high.
With the pre and post both high, something would've had to go wrong with the draw both times for them both to be elevated without an underlying problem. That and the ALT being so high, my guess would be this problem isn't going to go away...
That's what I figured. I was just hoping the pre was high because she smelled food and the post was high because of the UTI, but those are probably false hopes.
I agree that the UTI could be secondary to the liver issue and hopefully the BUN has gone back to normal. I think I'd redue it if you are concerned. Because she doesn't have stones but she did have the UTI and is having some sort of kidney/bladder issue, it may be a good idea to use Azodyl before a bigger problem starts...
I should be getting the Azodyl today I thought and will start it right away. And I will have her bloodworked checked again after I talk with the new vet Wed. Probably a false hope, but I'm hoping the UTI was possibly from the spay.... That's a lot of coincidences to string together, but my fingers are still crossed!

[Ellie May]

Have you thought about canned L/D?

I think it is great to be so particular about what foods she gets but I think she also needs to eat something she likes or she may just start refusing food altogether. I also know that when you start talking about vegetarian protein, low purines, etc., the selection of food is very limited.

The RC LS 14 is very palatable also (if she doesn't rip her ears off scratching from the stuff). Have you looked into that or are you staying with the NB?

[Yorkieluv]

There's also Avoderm Vegetarian, but I think it contains garlic...Not good, particularly if the dog is anemic.

Most dogs really do like the RC Hepatic, but like Crystal said, some dogs get itchy on it, but a lot don't.
You can always give the RC Hepatic with added protein like goat milk protein powder, goat milk yogurt, low sodium goat cheese, Friendship Brand no sodium cottage cheese, etc.

[bellasmomok]

I know this will sound selfish, but I CAN'T stand the smell of canned dog (or cat for that matter) food.....yuck!!!

I don't really want to stick with NB Vege...I'd rather homecook and will do so as soon as I can consult with a nutritionist. I really only got the NB to get her on a better food until I am able to home cook....it was only intended to be an "in the interim" food.

Part of the reason I'm researching so much right now is that I'm not into blindly trusting anyone really. Vets, doctors, preachers....no one is perfect, everyone has a biased view, and no one can know everything there is to know. I just like to make sure I'm able to sort of double check (obviously they know a lot more than I do), or at the very least bring up a question about a product/food that way we can discuss what I've learned rather than just disregarding either "theory".

I don't want to stay away from a lot of foods I'm being told to, but I also want Bella to stay a healthy little girl. Since she isn't exhibiting symptoms (unless you count the UTI, which we'll see about....I'm still not convinced it wasn't caused from being dehydrated during her spay??) I really don't want to be extremely strict with her....I still want her to get to lead as normal a life as possible. I mean, there is no way I would be extremely strict with myself if I weren't exhibiting any symptoms....I'd cheat! But then again, I love food! I just want her to get what she needs and wants without going overboard on either side of the coin. Since I'm responsible for her care...she certainly hasn't cooked me anything lately! ...I feel I have a duty to do the best I can for her, but also to know when it's ok to make exceptions. I still have to remember, other than her labwork (and possibly the UTI) she was just fine on the high protein puppy food she was eating before.

Nutrition is so confusing....I'm just trying to do my homework so I have edjucated questions and responses when I talk to the nutritionist, and I'm just trying to get by until then. Thank you to everyone who gives me their side of the story. I really appreciate knowing what I should be strict with and what would be ok in small amounts, etc... Knowing what other people are doing for their liver compromised dogs is making this so much easier, though it isn't easy by any means!

[Yorkieluv]

I'm so glad to read that you are doing so much research and trying to learn as much as possible for your little girl. That's so important for her long-term health if she really does have MVD/liver disease.
Of course, she should enjoy the food that she eats, but she can enjoy foods that are appropriate for her condition if she indeed does have a liver condition.

Believe me, I never thought I would get Miko to eat any food with as much gusto as he eats the food he's on right now. He's been eating pretty much consistently for at least 1 yr and a half. He eats homecooked food, and he loves it!

Doing bloodwork at least every 6 months is important to make sure your baby is doing okay. On the dog liver disease group, we had one member with a dog that had high ALT and other values off...She put her dog on RC Hepatic and the numbers came back to normal or close to normal range. She put her dog on a homecooked diet that contained chicken and a small amount of peanut butter for flavor, and her dog's numbers spiked again. That's why having bloodwork done is so important.

Also, just so you know, MSU does a vitamin/mineral analysis blood panel where they can check the vitamin/mineral levels in your dog. This is great especially dogs who get homecooked meals.

[Ellie May]

I went through this same thing with Ellie and once you get into a routine, it wil be much easier. I didn't want to blindly trust the vet or internist either, so I look stuff up for myself (well okay, I read what Yorkieluv has to say and go from there) because they may know how to medically manage these issues but I think for most vets, nutrition is a weak area...

I am not nearly strict enough with Ellie in my opinion and hopefully I don't regret it someday. But, along with liver issues, she can't have high fat because of her pancreas and I don't want her to constantly eat the same foods (although it happens anyway) because of her allergy/hypersensitivity issues.

I'm not having her nutritionist change her recipe because she is doing okay but if we need to change it for her GI issues, I think I will ask to switch to fish, egg and tofu.

Have you tried mixig yogurt with the kibble until you can talk to a nutritionist?
By the way, I have found that nutritionists don't seem to be nearly as concerned about things like red meat as we are. Ellie's nutritionist created her recipe so that I could swap out one meat for another and give variety. The same goes for carbs, oil and vegetables. That may be something you'd want your nutritionist to do so that if they don't agree about the low purine thing, you still have the vitamins, minerals and protein percentage right but can pick ingredients yourself.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

I'm so glad to read that you are doing so much research and trying to learn as much as possible for your little girl. That's so important for her long-term health if she really does have MVD/liver disease.
Of course, she should enjoy the food that she eats, but she can enjoy foods that are appropriate for her condition if she indeed does have a liver condition.

Believe me, I never thought I would get Miko to eat any food with as much gusto as he eats the food he's on right now. He's been eating pretty much consistently for at least 1 yr and a half. He eats homecooked food, and he loves it!

Doing bloodwork at least every 6 months is important to make sure your baby is doing okay. On the dog liver disease group, we had one member with a dog that had high ALT and other values off...She put her dog on RC Hepatic and the numbers came back to normal or close to normal range. She put her dog on a homecooked diet that contained chicken and a small amount of peanut butter for flavor, and her dog's numbers spiked again. That's why having bloodwork done is so important.

Also, just so you know, MSU does a vitamin/mineral analysis blood panel where they can check the vitamin/mineral levels in your dog. This is great especially dogs who get homecooked meals.

Hmm, Ellie's ALT was fine when she was on turkey this last time (I know, bad choice). I'm wondering if it made her BATs up though. We have stopped testing them because we can't do much about them anyway. Now I wonder if they are up ont these types of proteins. I am really considering getting Ellie's diet redone for more vegetarian based proteins.

[Yorkieluv]

Crystal, I'm sending you a pm...

[bellasmomok]

Thanks for the info about MSU....I saw that Cornell does this too, so I may try to stick with sending everything to one lab if I'm able to. Surely if the same people are doing it over and over again, their should be less chance for error between labs?? There is the issue of having one person doing the labs wrong every time, but I think Cornell is probably safer in that respect than the vet clinic that draws them....

Ellie May, here is how I handle her food right now....I soak her kibble (NB Vege) in distilled water for 15-30 min and then choose one of the following:
1. Plain (just soaked kibble)
2. Coated in a tiny bit of Plain Zero Fat Greek Yogurt (it has less sugar than other yogurts, and I can't find the Goat yogurt here but will keep trying)
3. Coated in pealed/soaked/boiled mashed white potato (mixed with a tiny "splish" of skim milk or distilled water)
4. Coated in pealed/soaked/boiled mashed sweet potato (mixed with a tiny "splish" of skim milk or distilled water)
5. I recently tried soaking the kibble in 2-3 tablespoons of skim milk and the rest distilled water....she seemed to like that pretty well too
6. I have added just a teaspoon maybe of cottage cheese...she likes this a lot too, but I haven't been able to find the low/no sodium yet, so I've only done this once
7. I tried mixing with mashed apples.....she LOVES peeled/cored apple chunks, but hates the mashed (I think it's because she's lady like and doesn't want to get it on her face....I hand fed her the contents of that plate and she ate it all. I guess she just didn't want to stick her face in it??)
8. I haven't tried but will soaking in apple juice with distilled water (I bought 100% apple juice, nothing added), so we'll see if she likes that.

She will only eat #1 if she's really hungry. #2-6 she likes and eats right up! I know you're all thinking....geez Tara! She has plenty of variety! I know, I know, but right now I didn't want to stick with just one thing in case she got tired of it, or in case something wasn't super-good for her...that way she wouldn't be exposed to it at all 4 meals every day.
And, honestly....I'm getting very tired of preparing kibble! To me, it would be so much easier to cook one day a week even (or less would be good too) and then defrost or microwave or whatever I'm supposed to do for each day or at each meal!

I also give her apple chunks, watermelon, or green beans occasionally as a snack.

[Yorkieluv]

I homecook for Miko, and I still have to prepare each meal.

Let me elaborate:
Scoop some homecooked food onto a dish
Add his lactulose, milk thistle, vetri-dmg, probiotics
Mix it all in.
Add his protein sources (goat milk protein powder and egg whites)
Then serve.

The protein sources are added separately to ensure that he's not overloaded with protein at any one meal which can easily happen if the protein is added to the large batch of food mixture that gets frozen. You can't control how much gets scooped out even if it's well mixed. I prefer not to take the risk.

Also, if supplements (ie. milk thistle, vetri-dmg, etc.) are given on food, that has to be added and mixed to the food at each meal, so I don't know that homecooked will be any better as far as having to prepare it.

I cook only once a month or so and freeze in 2-3 day portions.