Kibble

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The Dog Food Project is a great resource in learning the basics of what to look for and what to avoid in a dog food. It's also very helpful in understanding how to interpret an ingredient list, among other things. Once you've digested that info, however, dogfoodanalysis is to me the most comprehensive comparison guide there is. It's easy to navigate and by far reviews more brands than any other site I've found. If you just go to dogfood analysis to pick a food, you're mostly just taking someone's word for it. But if you go to Dog Food Project first, you can make better choices based on the dogfoodanalysis reviews.

DFP is another great one I use a lot. She also, btw, does custom homecooked diets for people. She is also my "Menadione" bookmark too - she has a great article on that.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The Dog Food Project is a great resource in learning the basics of what to look for and what to avoid in a dog food. It's also very helpful in understanding how to interpret an ingredient list, among other things. Once you've digested that info, however, dogfoodanalysis is to me the most comprehensive comparison guide there is. It's easy to navigate and by far reviews more brands than any other site I've found. If you just go to dogfood analysis to pick a food, you're mostly just taking someone's word for it. But if you go to Dog Food Project first, you can make better choices based on the dogfoodanalysis reviews.

BINGO! But you don't ever see anyone referred to that information first, so that the basics and background info can be learned first...you do however see people referred to DFA strait off...

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

BINGO! But you don't ever see anyone referred to that information first, so that the basics and background info can be learned first...you do however see people referred to DFA strait off...

Hold up there now ! Hello!

There are often attempts to steer folks who are asking about kibble toward "learning first" etc. -- and what is the response, 90% of the time? "I just don't have the time to read up on it, could you just provide recommendations instead?" -- .

That's why the DFA site is handy bc 1) they can, at the very least, get a quick read about a food they may choose and 2) at least get a cursory "education" about a few ingredients while (hopefully) reading that review ---> that's why it's convenient and helpful, in my mind. Because so many people refuse to read about background educatioin, period. You just aren't one of them who refuses, thankfully .

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Can you elaborate on this and give specific examples? This doesn't match with what I understand. Which RDAs are different based on breed? Which foods and ingredients, based on breed?

If there is info to be shared, please share it - you know all of us food geeks would love to know.

Hmm...I will have to dig up the specific articles at home later on...

For example:
--Would a non-shedding Yorkie and a shedding Lab have the same nutritional needs in regards to nutrients beneficial to coat growth?
--Labs are one of few breeds that secrete what is considered a "high" amount of oil from their skin, vs Collies who do not secrete any. Would they need the same amount of fat in their diets?
--Some breeds are more prone to bloat than others...wouldn't their diets need to consist of ingredients that produce less gas?
--Some breeds are more prone to issues with their joints--wouldn't their diets need to include ingredients that are beneficial to joint health?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Hold up there now ! Hello!

There are often attempts to steer folks who are asking about kibble toward "learning first" etc. -- and what is the response, 90% of the time? "I just don't have the time to read up on it, could you just provide recommendations instead?" -- .

That's why the DFA site is handy bc 1) they can, at the very least, get a quick read about a food they may choose and 2) at least get a cursory "education" about a few ingredients while (hopefully) reading that review ---> that's why it's convenient and helpful, in my mind. Because so many people refuse to read about background educatioin, period. You just aren't one of them who refuses, thankfully .

Unfortunately, you are correct. Many people DON'T take the time. But many times it isn't even presented that way. In all honesty, how many times on this site alone have people come on here looking for advice on a good food and just been referred to that site strait off, with no explanation whatsoever. Quite often!
And understand, I'm not discrediting the site completely. I DO think there is beneficial info to be learned there. It just is not a complete source of the info needed to make and fully educated decision as it is often made out to be.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

--Would a non-shedding Yorkie and a shedding Lab have the same nutritional needs in regards to nutrients beneficial to coat growth?
--Labs are one of few breeds that secrete what is considered a "high" amount of oil from their skin, vs Collies who do not secrete any. Would they need the same amount of fat in their diets?
--Some breeds are more prone to bloat than others...wouldn't their diets need to consist of ingredients that produce less gas?
--Some breeds are more prone to issues with their joints--wouldn't their diets need to include ingredients that are beneficial to joint health?

--the shedding doesn't have anything to do with the diets - it's genetic; so, no - it wouldn't alter the RDA

--sebaceous glands aren't regulated by the diet, so again no. This would be similar to us thinking that acne is cause by potato chips, chocolate, etcetera.

--bloat really needs to be thought of as a disease. Again, it doesn't change the RDAs. The causes of bloat often aren't even related to food. If a dog has gas, it doesn't change the dog's RDAs - it just means, like any individual BEING, there is an ingredient sensitivity. Read about Bloat

--again, that's a disease state and joint problems can never be addressed just through a kibble or RDAs. You'd address the disease - like with Cosequin etcetera.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Unfortunately, you are correct. Many people DON'T take the time. But many times it isn't even presented that way. In all honesty, how many times on this site alone have people come on here looking for advice on a good food and just been referred to that site strait off, with no explanation whatsoever. Quite often!
And understand, I'm not discrediting the site completely. I DO think there is beneficial info to be learned there. It just is not a complete source of the info needed to make and fully educated decision as it is often made out to be.

You are correct!! And personally, I'm going to make a better effort that perhaps every time I refer to DFA, I also refer to DFP - just for balance. I do try to educate as much as I have time for - and sometimes I get overwhelmed. I try to never just paste a link to DFA without explaining my reasons for certain foods - or sharing some thoughts. The questions do get overwhelming at times (not to mention the folks I help via PM too - which I'm happy to do!! ). But I HEAR you, I really do.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

--the shedding doesn't have anything to do with the diets - it's genetic; so, no - it wouldn't alter the RDA

No, the sheddig is genetic and not something that results from the diet, but the difference in the coat types results in a difference of needed nutrients.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

--sebaceous glands aren't regulated by the diet, so again no. This would be similar to us thinking that acne is cause by potato chips, chocolate, etcetera.

But for breeds that are not natural "oil producers", wouldn't it stand to reason that their dietary needs would be different? More fats or missing link or flax oil to make up for the lack of secretions?

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

--bloat really needs to be thought of as a disease. Again, it doesn't change the RDAs. The causes of bloat often aren't even related to food. If a dog has gas, it doesn't change the dog's RDAs - it just means, like any individual BEING, there is an ingredient sensitivity. Read about Bloat

--again, that's a disease state and joint problems can never be addressed just through a kibble or RDAs. You'd address the disease - like with Cosequin etcetera.

They can be addressed and labeled any which way that exists, but the bottom line it...the problems run more heavily in specific breeds. The problems are all effected by diet and nutrients. Therefore, the breed's "needs" are not the same nutritionally.

LP for example...runs in Yorkie pretty commonly where as it does not in all breeds. Glucosamine, be it in food or supplemented, promotes joint health. So in essence, the Yorkie is more likely than other breeds to need a variation in diet to address that issue.

(Hugs...off to run errands now and start Halloween. Thanks for the interesting and educational conversation Anne...I'll try to catch back up sometime this weekend. )

[Woogie Man]

Just checking back in....you ladies sure have brought up some good points. Unfortunately, too many people are looking for quick answers and don't want to bother educating themselves. it doesn't take much research to see that there are definitely some very low quality foods, many that a novice might think are good quality. I think it's easier to tell people ingredients to avoid rather than what to look for. One thing that doesn't get brought up often enough is that you must make sure that your dog drinks enough water if they're on a kibble only diet. I feed mine kibble in the morning and kibble, with canned and some water added in, for the evening meal. I really don't think kibble only is a great idea no matter the brand. Another point I'd like to make is that, if you feel your dog needs a supplement such as glucosamine or flaxseed oil, it is better to give it as a supplement rather than to rely on it being an ingredient in your dog's food. When it's in the food, there usually isn't enough of it to have much benefit. For instance, even though the food I use has flaxseed in it, I still add in flaxseed oil to their evening meal.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

No, the sheddig is genetic and not something that results from the diet, but the difference in the coat types results in a difference of needed nutrients.

But for breeds that are not natural "oil producers", wouldn't it stand to reason that their dietary needs would be different? More fats or missing link or flax oil to make up for the lack of secretions?

They can be addressed and labeled any which way that exists, but the bottom line it...the problems run more heavily in specific breeds. The problems are all effected by diet and nutrients. Therefore, the breed's "needs" are not the same nutritionally.

LP for example...runs in Yorkie pretty commonly where as it does not in all breeds. Glucosamine, be it in food or supplemented, promotes joint health. So in essence, the Yorkie is more likely than other breeds to need a variation in diet to address that issue.

(Hugs...off to run errands now and start Halloween. Thanks for the interesting and educational conversation Anne...I'll try to catch back up sometime this weekend. )

In your first paragraph - that's exactly what I already said above - I said "shedding is genetic" (meaning, it doesn't have to do with the food). So, some dogs are supposed to shed, some not --> therefore, a dog doesn't need different nutrients to mitigate that process, the follicles would be supported either way by a good diet since the shed/not shed is not a disease state.

As for the fats: if we eat more oil, does our skin become oily? No. Certain oils can be beneficial to skin issues, but that doesn't mean it will "increase secretions". In the scenario you mention also, the question would be: are the "non-secretion" dogs supposed to be that way (i.e. why are we trying to change it? did they used to secrete and now they're not?)? Or has it become a breedING problem? Is that where it's coming from?

To your last part about problems running in breeds - we agree there, however, you wouldn't really want to formulate a "breed" kibble that "treated/accounted" for disease states. For example, just bc LP is prevalent in Yorkies, I wouldn't want therapeutic doses of glucos/chon. in a breed food for "Yorkies". I don't want my dogs treated for disease states they may not have. [this is getting in the realm of prescription diets too, again - a disease-state diet]

That's why I like the RDAs. We're kind of talking about 2 different things here really - there are RDAs for all pet foods. Those are *not* breed specific - those are species specific. Secondly, we're talking about disease states/illnesses - some of which run in breeds, but these diseases should be treated as *dog* specific, to be safe - in my mind.

Anyway, I know we're splitting hairs again here in Health and Diet and we've probably annoyed about 300 people. But again, I love this stuff and think it's FUN, bc that's how I roll my geekness -- so thanks for geekin' out with me, Misti.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Just checking back in....you ladies sure have brought up some good points. Unfortunately, too many people are looking for quick answers and don't want to bother educating themselves. it doesn't take much research to see that there are definitely some very low quality foods, many that a novice might think are good quality. I think it's easier to tell people ingredients to avoid rather than what to look for. One thing that doesn't get brought up often enough is that you must make sure that your dog drinks enough water if they're on a kibble only diet. I feed mine kibble in the morning and kibble, with canned and some water added in, for the evening meal. I really don't think kibble only is a great idea no matter the brand. Another point I'd like to make is that, if you feel your dog needs a supplement such as glucosamine or flaxseed oil, it is better to give it as a supplement rather than to rely on it being an ingredient in your dog's food. When it's in the food, there usually isn't enough of it to have much benefit. For instance, even though the food I use has flaxseed in it, I still add in flaxseed oil to their evening meal.

Exactly.

[Breny]

Hey OP! Are you even still here?

I hope you find a good food for you baby!