Shoot!!
 

I forgot to answer your question, Desiree1027, about why I think she has reflux.

She sort of makes this gag/hack noise (she does it a couple of times a week or so) and then smacks her lips afterward some of the time. When I noticed it, I started watching her more closely to make sure it wasn't reverse sneezing. Unfortunately for me, I was unlucky enough to have her face right over my face one night when I was lying on the living room floor when she did it again.....I could smell the acidy, sort of vomit smell, though she didn't actually vomit. That kind of reassured my suspicions, but I wanted to check with the vet to see what we ought to do about it, since I know in humans acid reflux can cause a LOT of bad problems over time (I have it, that's why I'm aware of that.) Also, when she does it, it's very brief, usually only one little gag/hack noise and then it's over.

If you have any other questions or want to talk about Desiree's reflux, feel free to PM me anytime... I think if it were me (and you were thinking that was what it was with her), I'd try one of the things I said (bits of food all day to make sure her stomach isn't completely empty or 1/4 children's Pepcid complete daily) before I had her scoped or anything that drastic. My vet is pretty awesome....I talk to him about all the things I read on the internet, and he is really good about staying up on all the controversial stuff and tells me what his opinion is or that he doesn't know (very rare, but I'd rather that then tell me something false). He said that you can't really overdose on acid reducers, because they're not systemic and they just stay in the gut, but he said 1/4 of a children's would be better--why overdo it if you can dose appropriately?!

thanks Bellasmomok
 

Thanks for all the info. I was so interested because Dezi, who has the digestive issues, always seems to swallow alot when she's not feeling well. It seems like what we might do if we had heartburn or indigestion. I have always felt it was an acid issue.
What did you mean by "when the air makes it's way out, a little acid comes with it"? Does she throw up? I am in the process of making appointments for an ultrasound and barium study because I think she might have ulcers.
The last bout with diarrhea and loss of appetite came with black stool which I was told was from digesting blood.
It was the first time I had seen that with her and also the worst bout with whatever this is.
I keep thinking about it and if she has ulcers, it would explain a lot but I still think it started as and continues to be IBS type stuff but I worry that it may have caused ulcers. She is a worrier and a stresser.
Thanks for sharing the details, I appreciate it. :)

When my vet said "when the air makes it's way out" he explained that he meant little burps. I never hear her make a burping noise, but apparently her having a little burp that I don't hear is what brings the acid up with it....so all I hear is that gag/hack noise.

I do human ultrasounds for a living (I'm a sonographer), and I've always wondered what on earth vets could be ultrasounding for when it has to do with bowel?? (Someone told me once that they did an ultrasound on their dog who had chewed up the towel that was in the crate with it and started having a lot of vomiting. The ultrasound didn't show anything, but another test showed that a piece of the towel was causing a blockage in the intestines.) Ultrasound doesn't see through air or bone, therefore you can't see the stomach or bowel (intestines) or image bones. (With the exception that we can see the appendix in humans, and the pylorus [a muscular valve from the stomach to the colon] in infants only...because they have a liquid only diet and most bottles minimize the amount of air they swallow.) I think the barium study sounds like a good idea, but I'd decline the ultrasound. I think it would be a waste of money. If the barium study is inconclusive, then I'd have her scoped.....that's a really good way to look for ulcers in the stomach and colon. The barium study will show you things like diverticulitis, etc... I'm sure the black (tarry) stool probably means she has some kind of bleeding in her colon, most likely a bleeding ulcer I would think.

If you have any more questions, I can ask tomorrow at work....there's a physican who comes to my clinic to oversee contrast injections. Besides ultrasound (me), we also do x-ray, MRI, and CT, so that physician and the CT/MRI techs could probably answer more questions about those types of test....ultrasound is what I know most about, though I've picked up a few things from being around the other imaging modalities. (The Oklahoma State U. veterinary school/clinic has brought dogs to us for MRI's--after hours of course :) )

So cool that you can share all of that!
The current vet I am using suggested that I go to a specialist in my area who I believe she called an internist but it may be a digestive specialist.
She is the one who said that the specialist could do the barium study and ultrasound, it may have been a guess on her part but I am so glad to know that if they offer one, I can feel confident refusing. I have the number and haven't called yet because Dezi isn't showing any serious signs of distress at the moment.
A scope scares me, she is only 2 3/4 lbs. My vet said the specialist may not even have a scope small enough. That scares me more. I may research ulcer treatment and see if it is an option without the scope. Not to mention that between my two girls, I am in for over $1000.00 in the last 4 months. Routine puppy stuff for Cassidy and emergency stuff for Desiree. I could use a break.:eek:
What can a barium study show, since you are an nonobjective opinion. I always feel like a bad person if I decline a test but they are sooooo expensive and unfortunately the vet's office is $$$ motivated.
:thumbup: Thanks so much, I really appreciate all your help. :D

I will ask at work tomorrow (physician and techs that have performed that procedure) for more info about the barium study.

In the meantime, if she seems to be doing better, I'm wondering if you should just try giving her 1/4 of a Children's Pepcid Complete?? Let me ask the physician in our office about that tomorrow too....I know the medicine I take for acid reflux (Protonix) actually is preventative AND works to heal damage that's already been done. I also wouldn't mind calling my vet to ask that question for you--he's always been really honest with me and usually suggests trying something else first if at all possible before doing anything expensive. He's even seen my cat 3 days after a visit to the emergency vet just to check on her and make sure she was okay...and DIDN'T CHARGE ME ANYTHING!! (I called to ask a question about what they had done at the emergency vet to make sure nothing else needed to be done, and he asked that I come in for a check up. At the time I thought "Great!! Expensive emergency vet visit and now I have to go for a check up, which is going to be even more money! But after he checked her, he ushered me out the front door and said I didn't owe him a thing--the back door is the exit and is where you pay on your way out....it just made me love him even more!!)

My baby Chloe's eyes does the same thing. I only get pictures after she gets groomed. Ha Ha! I will try the distilled water too. She gets filtered water out of the refrig. now.

Man, I wish I lived in your area, my search for a new vet would have just ended! :thumbup: It's so nice to hear things like that.

Thank you so much for all you are offering. My vet would tell me to come in if I called about any of this. Dezi did have an abdominal x-ray which confirmed there was no blockage. I assume there is a possibility of blockage not related to something she ingested because I know she doesn't put anything in her mouth that's not food.

She was prescribed phomotazine (sp?). I thought it was an active ingredient in Pepcid. It could have been what cleared her up. But at the same time she was on Amforol. It's a combo of antibiotic (Kanamycin), Bismuth (pepto-like chalky stuff), and aluminum magnesium silicate (both for diarrhea control). She stopped bleeding but was so constipated, :eek: she couldn't poop for four days!! I've read on here that Pepto isn't good for them. I wonder why?

I still have some of both meds. If the pepcid is the same as what she had taken, it could have been what got her to this point.

What bothers me is that even though she is back to almost normal, a few times right after she eats she starts to shiver and is visibly uncomfortable. It doesn't last but it's obvious that whatever is causing it happens as soon as the food goes in. That seems like either stomach or esophagus.

I would love the opportunity to get advice that saves money, but more importantly, I don't want to expose her to any unneeded test and the stress they will cause. She is a stress dog and the stuff that she suffers with is aggravated by more stress. It's like what came first, the stress or the stress caused by the stress. :confused:

Yes, using Pepto is not good for small dogs....my vet made sure to say that to me when he was advising an acid reducer. He said it's ok for big dogs, but that it shouldn't be used for small ones....he said why too, but I can't remember! (I always have a list of questions when I go if it wasn't something I felt I should call about right away, so the reason for no Pepto got lost in all the other information I was getting...I wish I could remember now though.)

I just googled "active ingredients Pepcid Complete" and they are: Famotidine, Calcium Carbonate , and Magnesium Hydroxide--so it looks like the prescription he gave you probaby was very similar to Pepcid. The "Complete" part of the Pepcid Complete is that it is an acid reducer AND an antacid, meaning it helps prevent producing more stomach acid AND neutralizes acid already in the stomach. I bet that is why she got better!

I asked about barium studies this morning and was told that a lower GI barium study is good for finding tumors and diverticuli (both of which can cause bleeding) and an upper GI barium study is more for looking for things in the stomach and can also see the small intestines (if you wait longer)...apparently it's possible to see stomach ulcers on an upper GI, though it could be just gas they are seeing sometimes and think it's an ulcer. A scope would be able to see the ulcers a lot better......clear as mud right?! :rolleyes:

I also asked about trying the Pepcid Complete first (if Dezi is still doing pretty well) and whether it would help ulcers heal. The physician I spoke with said trying those meds certainly wouldn't hurt her, and if she continues to take them over time, it will keep the acid reduced which will allow her body to heal itself if ulcers are what's causing the bleeding. If after several weeks she seems to get worse or not get any better, however, then ulcers may not be the problem after all, and you should do one of those tests (barium/scope).

Since you said that she tends to have more problems when under stress and that she seems to be a little better now, I would try staying on Pepcid (whether by prescription or over the counter, though over the counter may be cheaper??) and see what happens. I'm thinking the shaking/shivering after eating may indicate pain associated with a stomach ulcer. Since she eats and has bowel movements, a stomach ulcer is much more likely than a blockage. Diverticuli are also painful and bleed, but it would take a few minutest after eating for that kind of pain--eating causes the bowel to move (peristalsis) which causes pain in diverticuli. I would definitely moniter her stools and behavior, though, so that if you think the medicine just isn't working you can do the testing. Just remember that the acid will be reduced upon taking the meds, but it will take a little time to start the healing process.

I hope that helps....keep me updated, and if you have any more questions, I can always call my vet!!

Wow! You are so great to do all of this. :friendsh:

The Pepcid seems like a great idea and if your dog's dose was 1/4 then I am confident giving the same. Is it once daily?

The black stool was only with the last episode. I never saw it before when she was suffering. The shaking after eating is kind of new. she used to shake and want to be held, but not immediately after eating. That's when I thought it may be reflux because of the digestive sounds that came with the shaking, it seemed like she may have digestive cramping. But along with it came the swallowing frequently and occasional vomiting.

I wonder, is there a such thing as a complete barium study that includes both upper and lower?

I will certainly keep you informed and I would love to know what food you use.

:thankyou2

no sweat glands
 

[QUOTE=Desiree1027;2267524]I am very very interested in the acid reflux info. What makes you think she has it and I would love to hear what the vet says. I think Desiree has it and now I think she has ulcers. She's also a worrier.

The tear duct thing is interesting. How big are the ones with the problem and how big are the ones without it? My two both have it and it's constant. The smaller 2 3/4 lb one's face gets so crusty along that path of the tears that you'd swear she had a stick stuck in her hair. The bigger one at 3 1/4 lb, hers runs all day as long as she's active.

I was told by a groomer that they sweat from the bridge of their nose, maybe it is accurate because it always gets more severe when they are running around like crazy.

I posted that before asking if anyone else heard it. But no one replied.[/QUOT

I HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT DOGS DON'T HAVE SWEAT GLANDS THATS WHY THEY PANT WHEN THEY ARE HOT.
I HAVE BEEN TOLD THE HAIR ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE VERY HAIRY ON THE BRIDGE OF THERE NOSES CAN IRRITATE MORE AND THEY NEED TO HAVE THESE CLIPPED DOWN TO THE NOSE. I HAVE HEARD OF TEAR DUCTS BEING IMMATURE. WHEN IT COMES TO EYES I DON'T SPEDULATE AND I GET MY VETS OPINION AND THEY HAVE A SPECIALIST THAT COMES THROUGH EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE SO THAT IS CONVENIENT.

Lisa,
Yes, 1/4 of a Children's Pepcid Complete daily.

Usually, over the counter acid reducers/antacids will say on the box not to take for more than 14 days (or something like that?), and that if problems persist to contact your physician. They are, however, safe for daily use--I have been taking mine every day for the last 12 years or so. I would say if she's been doing well on Pepcid Complete, after a period of time.....several months to a year (I'm not sure how long it would take for the ulcers to heal, if that's what it is of course??)....I would take her off for a bit and watch her to see if the reflux type symptoms come back. If they do, then re-start taking them daily again--she quite possibly is like me and just has to be on them all the time. If I don't take mine 2 days in a row (because I'm forgetful with meds :rolleyes:) I am seriously hurting. If, however, she seems totally fine, then I'd discontinue the meds altogether. (And of course, if she doesn't seem to have improved within 2-3 weeks of taking the meds, I would think about testing.) Bella is only just over 5 mo. old, and since the vet said she may very well grow out of the reflux, I plan to take her off Pepcid Complete after she's a little over a year old to check and see if she will need to stay on it or not.

Yes, many times physicians will do an upper and lower GI barium study at the same time if they feel it's needed, that way you are only "uncomfortable" once instead of twice. I would assume it would be the same for a dog....since you can't get a dog to drink barium (for the upper), I'm sure they use an NG (nasogastric) tube (which is inserted through the nose and goes directly into the stomach) to fill their stomach with barium, and for the lower GI they would have a barium enema...both of which I'm certain they would at the very least mildly sedate if not completely sedate. (Which is just one more reason, IMO, to try the meds first....I don't like the idea of sedation on my tiny one unless it's necessary.)

I feed Bella Wellness Just for Puppy, and when she gets older will switch her to Wellness Small Breed Adult. I have heard that not only is it a good food, but many maltese owners swear by it--as in it helps reduce/eliminate tearing. Of course, my baby still tears, but I bought distilled water today, so we'll see how that does.

Tara

You know, I have always been told that too (about panting because they don't have sweat glands), but after Bella has been for a walk (running around outside), she has a definite musky smell about her, which I assume has to be sweat??! What else could it be? I have read posts here on YT about members' dogs who have that same musky smell after having played outside, etc..., so now I'm wondering if perhaps they don't have enough sweat glands and that is why they pant instead of them not having them altogether??? More research for me I guess.... :rolleyes:

Someone earlier up in this thread said that (I think anyway?) they had never heard of sweating from the bridge of the nose, but that running around especially if it's breezy out makes the eyes run more. I'm more inclined to think that also....and possibly in addition, running around especially outside a pup would be more likely to have allergies flare up, or allergens to get in their eyes at the very least, which would cause them to run as well. Bella tears all the time, though, not just when she's running around, so it must be some combination for her.

Tara
I thought the barium study could be done without sedation, :( I will check with the specialist before making any appointment. I won't have her sedated unless absolutely necessary!
The current vet gave her a dose of barium to see how long it took to come back out. It was given through a syringe down the back of the mouth. She spit a little,:eek: but don't know if it would be enough to do a full study. It never showed up coming back out because she was pooping black at that point so the white I was looking for never came. :confused:


I have read the distilled water thing so many times in the last few days on YT so I am going to try it, too.

I can't feed Wellness, it's too rich for Dezi, Cassie could eat anything but I am aiming to feed them the same if possible.

I also saw the tearing more when they are running around, I always thought it was from wind in their eyes as they are running at 90 mph. :doghop:

At my past vet's office said the smell of "sweat" is the Frito smell we were joking about. They thought it was their paws that smelled like that. Dezi always smells of corn chips after being rolled up into the smallest ball she can become. I can't make her a girly dog, she hates being groomed and if I bug her too much, she holds a grudge. :mad:

I have to take her to be bathed and brushed by someone else, they do her nails and pads and ears as well. I bring her home at that nice stage of clean and tangle free (and exhausted) and then I cut her hair. She doesn't mind as much then, she is almost relieved it's me doing it at that point.

I am approaching Cassie's grooms the same way to avoid being the "bad guy". My husband doesn't do anything but play with them so he's the "savior". Makes me so mad! :mad:

Lisa

eye tears
 

My groomer told me not to use anything like Angel Eyes - just a wet washcloth. It was a pain in the neck, and I didn't always get to it every day. So I figured out a great solution! Buy those little triangle cosmetic sponges, and a metal comb. The sponges are small, but you can cut them in half and make them go even father. (I throw them out after each use, but you could probably use them a couple of times.) They hold a LOT of water. Saturate the sponge, saturate your baby's face - 20 minutes later, the eye tears are all softened, and will come right out with a comb! I couldn't believe how perfectly it worked. So much easier than trying to scrub their little faces!!!

Eileen

So you squeeze the water from the sponge onto their face once? Or do you go back here and there? Does it help with the odor? My girls have a dirty smell from their face after a few days.