BAT and you have a healthy dog?

[marcerella02]

Has anyone given a BAT when your dog shows no symptoms of liver issues? I've read that by the time your dog shows symptoms it can be too late to treat it. However I was wondering how many have gotten it done on a healthy dog. Can you tell me what the test entails? Layla goes in October for her bi yearly blood panel and i wanted to get it done then but just wanted more info on it. Layla hates the vets so i'd like to do it all in one shot

[Smarty Bones]

It's basically a blood test after the pup has been fasting and then fed a special meal designed to challenge the liver, pancreas, etc. Here's a nice explanation of the procedure:
How is a Bile Acid test performed, and what does it mean?

BTW, since Yorkies have such an increased incidence of liver shunt over other breeds, I think you're very smart to be thinking about this now.

[Ladymom]

Yes, absolutely get a BAT done. Dr. Center, the developer of the BAT, recommends that all Yorkies be BAT tested after eighteen weeks of age.

[Ellie May]

Most people will tell you it is not necessary in an adult asymptomatic dog but I'd just do it If there is a problem later with poisoning or whatever and her BA go up, you will know they weren't always like that... It is also good to change diet and use supplements just so you are doing everything you possibly can...

Ellie was pretty much asymptomatic and I decided to do it anyway.
Her vet said she would do it but didn't think it was necessary because Ellie's regular blood work was normal. All Ellie had was a reaction to a vaccine (and some Yorkies do), vomiting every week or two (this ended up being from Science Diet), a UTI that we had trouble getting rid of and something else that I can't remember right now. Anyway, none of those things are a red flag to most vets...

[marcerella02]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Most people will tell you it is not necessary in an adult asymptomatic dog but I'd just do it If there is a problem later with poisoning or whatever and her BA go up, you will know they weren't always like that... It is also good to change diet and use supplements just so you are doing everything you possibly can...

Ellie was pretty much asymptomatic and I decided to do it anyway.
Her vet said she would do it but didn't think it was necessary because Ellie's regular blood work was normal. All Ellie had was a reaction to a vaccine (and some Yorkies do), vomiting every week or two (this ended up being from Science Diet), a UTI that we had trouble getting rid of and something else that I can't remember right now. Anyway, none of those things are a red flag to most vets...

lol.. Crystal i don't think i understood that.... woudl you get it done or not?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Most people will tell you it is not necessary in an adult asymptomatic dog but I'd just do it If there is a problem later with poisoning or whatever and her BA go up, you will know they weren't always like that... It is also good to change diet and use supplements just so you are doing everything you possibly can...

There was supposed to be a period between what I just highlighted.
Most people would say it is not necessary but I think it is best just to do it.
If there is a problem later and the bile acids go up, you wouldn't know how high her bile acids were to begin with if you don't test now. It is good to have a baseline. If there is a problem, you can supplement and not just let it go.

So I say do it.

[TLC]

She will need to be fasted for 12 hrs. You bring her to the Vet and they do a blood draw. Then they feed her some special food, wait 2 hours and then do another blood draw. Results are usually 24 hrs later. The cost is anywhere from $40 to $100 - IMO worth it because what's there to loose. Either it will indicate a normal liver (good news) or it may indicate an issue with the liver (which you would want to know anyway, so you can treat it)

[Ellie May]

Marci, I'm just thinking here.
I would honestly not consider Layla a healthy dog.
She has a very hard time with vaccines and anesthesia (reason enough to BAT).
She has lots of GI issues and sensitivities which can indicate a problem sometimes.

And then the LP which would be unrelated but it is still a problem.

It sounds like you have a lot to think about to take care of her.
Maybe we should have a "My Yorkie has issues and my head is spinning club".

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by TLC

She will need to be fasted for 12 hrs.

Actually, the protocol has changed and fasting is no longer necessary. This was taken from page 5 of Dr. Center's seminar handout:

7. Random "Fasting" Bile Acids ARE NOT reliable for RULING OUT liver dysfunction or abnormal portal circulation. Rather, you need PAIRED SAMPLES AROUND A MEAL. We no longer collect 12-hr fasting bile acids but instead collect a bile acid sample before a meal (pre-meal) and 2 hours after a meal (post-meal or postprandial)." (all emphasis was added by Dr. Center, not me)

As Crystal said, Dr. Center recommends a BAT in Yorkie puppies to have a baseline for later on. This is from page 22 of the handout:

2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography. How old dogs should be at he time of initial testing has not been established. Typically, abnormal bile acids DO NOT normalize as a dog ages ..... (all emphasis added by Dr. Center)

Since Layla is having some suspicious symptoms, I think it would be especially important to BAT test her.

[marcerella02]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Marci, I'm just thinking here.
I would honestly not consider Layla a healthy dog.
She has a very hard time with vaccines and anesthesia (reason enough to BAT).
She has lots of GI issues and sensitivities which can indicate a problem sometimes.

And then the LP which would be unrelated but it is still a problem.

It sounds like you have a lot to think about to take care of her.
Maybe we should have a "My Yorkie has issues and my head is spinning club".

Ya you are right Crystal. She has never had issues with anesthesia (other than being groggy) but she is hyper senstive to vaccines and has more allergies than one dog ever should!

love the club lol... layla has issues.. both physical and pyschological

[marcerella02]

I called the vet and she goes on Thursday the 9th for her blood work and to have her knee checked out. THe vet will decide when we get there if she wants to do the BAT that day or pick a different day. And they said i can stay with her while they "wait" for whatever it is they are waiting for. I hate the idea of leaving her there.. she'll be so upset if i do and i know she won't even TOUCH the food she is supposed to eat. I still don't think she'll eat it but i'll have a better chance of her eating if i'm there with her. !

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by marcerella02

I called the vet and she goes on Thursday the 9th for her blood work and to have her knee checked out. THe vet will decide when we get there if she wants to do the BAT that day or pick a different day. And they said i can stay with her while they "wait" for whatever it is they are waiting for. I hate the idea of leaving her there.. she'll be so upset if i do and i know she won't even TOUCH the food she is supposed to eat. I still don't think she'll eat it but i'll have a better chance of her eating if i'm there with her. !

She doesn't have to eat whatever they use.
Because of Ellie's allergies and pancreatitis, she will eat her normal diet whenever she has another BAT...
Last time she had Innova canned because it is high in protein and fat.
She also doesn't have to stay because she just needs to eat and blood needs to be redrawn in two hours. Ellie's vet has given the okay to take her home in between now. So it really depends on if your vet likes to do you favors.

[marcerella02]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

She doesn't have to eat whatever they use.
Because of Ellie's allergies and pancreatitis, she will eat her normal diet whenever she has another BAT...
Last time she had Innova canned because it is high in protein and fat.
She also doesn't have to stay because she just needs to eat and blood needs to be redrawn in two hours. Ellie's vet has given the okay to take her home in between now. So it really depends on if your vet likes to do you favors.

well i told them i will be staying with her. So i guess we could leave if we want. lol... I'll have to talk to her about what they are going to feed. I have a feeling i'll be coming back on another day to do the BAT and when i go on the 9th i'll discuss what it is they want her to eat. Layla can't have chicken and my vet carries "ok" food but not the best. I'd rather bring my own but i think the lady at the front desk who answers the phone thinks i'm a nut My vet is so much more understanding so i'll go over my concerns with her. Thanks Crystal

Can you remind me again what good results are??

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by marcerella02

well i told them i will be staying with her. So i guess we could leave if we want. lol... I'll have to talk to her about what they are going to feed. I have a feeling i'll be coming back on another day to do the BAT and when i go on the 9th i'll discuss what it is they want her to eat. Layla can't have chicken and my vet carries "ok" food but not the best. I'd rather bring my own but i think the lady at the front desk who answers the phone thinks i'm a nut My vet is so much more understanding so i'll go over my concerns with her. Thanks Crystal

Can you remind me again what good results are??

10 and below preprandial
15 (sometimes 20) and below postprandial

[marcerella02]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

10 and below preprandial
15 (sometimes 20) and below postprandial

thank you ma'am