Does anyone know if it's ok to feed Raw diet if...

[sadiesamie]

I am dealing with pancreatitis issues, high amylase levels and lipase values. We need to feed a diet low in fat and high in fiber. I hear so many great things about raw diet and how it is so much healthier for our babies. But I am scared and I also do not know if anyone is feeding raw that has dealt with any issues. perhaps kidney related.. we have high upc ratio and BUN.

Both of my girls have started losing protein in their urine. The Specialist is leaning towards this being Glomerulonephritis disease. There is no high blood pressure. But upc came back at 7.3. It was 1.9 ---2 months ago. The food they were eating was wellness wgt mgt- 6% fat and 8% fiber. After the last upc of 1.9 I felt comfortable going up a notch to the wellness super 5 mix which has 10% fat and 5% fiber. The amylase/lipase values were still high and the upc went back to 7.3 in only a couple months.

we are re-checking upc in 30 days. I don't know if the food change make the amylase/lipase values stay high or if her problem is worsening. the protein loss could be from the increased BUN- (now at 60) but we don't know for sure what could be causing this just yet.... She is on benazeperil at the moment but apparently it may not be working. we are back on the wellness wgt mgt since it is lower in fat and I am also giving fiber 2 x's a day in there food. the stools have firmed up a bit so who knows... maybe this will lower the amylase/lipase values and help bring her upc back down.

I am going to talk with a nutritionist because I want them on the best food. I am wondering if anyone else has any issues and still feeding raw. I am really interested in learning more about raw diet/home cooking OR another quality food.

If the upc does not start going back down this could progress into loss of kidney function. I don't know if anyone can still feed raw diet with issues as such. Right now I am just asking questions and wanting to learn more. I am not going to make the decision to do this w/o talking to a nutrionist but maybe this could ease my mind knowing that others out there are feeding a raw diet.

The reason I ask this is bc I spoke to a rep from Nature's Variety yesterday and she told me that she has seen cases where dogs improve immensely. their overall health is much better on a raw diet. Even after dealing with kidney issues or any other major issues. She just said that everything improves over all.

[Wylie's Mom]

Okay...JUH-EEEZ!!!! My heart goes out to you. There are a lot of issues here.

Partially, I'm just bumping this for you. Partially, I have a few measly things to say, but not much. I do feed raw and think it's tremendous. I had terrible digestive issues with Marcel - and spent hundreds early on at the vet - without any real resolution. FINALLY, I found a nutritionist (holistic, but classically trained) who works at a vet practice in Calif. and consults via phone internationally - out of desperation, I thought, what the heck.

Well, she changed everything for Marcel. Many vets, nationally, do nutritional consults w/ her for their cancer pet patients. She does use raw for her liver patients - I don't know how - but I know that she does bc she once mentioned this in passing as she is a big believer in raw (but in variety as well). Personally, I think she is *wonderful* - and I can't say enough about her.

Marcel recommends her even more highly (my avatar). You can check her out at - www.askariel.com. I can't answer your more complicated stuff - but I know that she, perhaps in concert w/ YOUR vet as well as HER staff vet, could get you really well situated. Just my 2 cents.

Please keep me posted, if you can!

[sadiesamie]

I talked to the specialists assistant this week and and told her that we are planning to see a nutritionist next week. We have a visit with Dr. Shawn Messionnuer. I will attach his link as soon as I locate it again. :-)

The specialists assistant said ... to the best of their knowledge Dr Shawn is not a certified nutritionist and that he is a "holistic veterinarian".
Specialist also said that he does not support Raw diet- because of Salmonella, E-coli and food poisoning.

Our high lipase and amlase values are due to loss of renal function (well the specialist said "he is almost positive" without further testing that would run about 1500.00... so they say. But he suggested the low fat and high fiber diet. he actually said that he could not "stress it enough".

Stools are not runny but not as firm as I would like to see them.
Every night though it seems something takes place. Samie tonight... was licking her back paw really bad. Sadie was laying on her side and I listened to her tummy and it was making loud gurgling noises.

I want them to be healthy and I am leaning towards them really benefiting from a raw diet. I am nervous for next weeks appt. I read all kinds of great things about Dr Shawn and the many books he's published.. he suppports raw and home cooked diet. We think we just lucked out bc he is only 15 miles away from us. I was told that people come in from Calif to see him.

The rep from Natures Variety told me about him. He is even going to be on the Martha Stewart show 4/15. Next Tuesday!

I am nervous and excited all at once. I feel as if our specialist is not educated enough to know about feeding raw.

I have read that if a dog suffers from pancreatitis it could cause them to have an attack. This scares me.

I have done lots of reading on raw, took out books from the library that talk about raw diets... (even a couple of Dr Shawns books too I got from the library too)

The specialist also told me that the pancreas levels are up bc of the increased BUN - Both girls are being treated for Glomerlophrentiis (sp) The only med they are on is Benezeperil.

I wanted to post some of thier values from last weeks labs...

Sadie's lipase: 1236 (normal range 7-695
Sadie's amylase: 1346 (normal range 290-1125)

Samie's lipase: 1077
Samie's amlase: 877

* Sadie's lip/amy values are higher than Samie's

UPC
Sadie's UPC: 7.3
Samie's UPC: 2.3

Albumin
Sadie's Albumin: 3.7 (normal range: 2.7-4.4
Samie's Albumin: 4.1

BUN
Sadie's BUN: 60 (normal range 6-25)
Samie's BUN: 16

Not sure what "Platelet Count" is ??? But, it is marked "high"
(normal range is: 170-400)
Sadie's Platelet Count: 519
Samie's Platelet Count: 486

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Okay...JUH-EEEZ!!!! My heart goes out to you. There are a lot of issues here.

Partially, I'm just bumping this for you. Partially, I have a few measly things to say, but not much. I do feed raw and think it's tremendous. I had terrible digestive issues with Marcel - and spent hundreds early on at the vet - without any real resolution. FINALLY, I found a nutritionist (holistic, but classically trained) who works at a vet practice in Calif. and consults via phone internationally - out of desperation, I thought, what the heck.

Well, she changed everything for Marcel. Many vets, nationally, do nutritional consults w/ her for their cancer pet patients. She does use raw for her liver patients - I don't know how - but I know that she does bc she once mentioned this in passing as she is a big believer in raw (but in variety as well). Personally, I think she is *wonderful* - and I can't say enough about her.

Marcel recommends her even more highly (my avatar). You can check her out at - www.askariel.com. I can't answer your more complicated stuff - but I know that she, perhaps in concert w/ YOUR vet as well as HER staff vet, could get you really well situated. Just my 2 cents.

Please keep me posted, if you can!

I am also going to strongly consider talking to your nutritionist also. I do like the thought of seeing Dr Shawn for in hopes of making him our actual vet if we like him. so that was my main reason for scheduling with him. But.... Dr Susan Davis has exactly what we need. I just know it! Just from reading her site. I don't know about all the supplements though. Seems like a lot. I wonder if the ones she mentions for kidney condition are all necessary? she mentions like 10 of them. I am going to keep looking at her pages of info.

Do you remember how long the phone consult was? Did you fax over the labs to her or did she ask you for them over the phone? I am going to talk to my husband in the morning about her. Plus we don't have kidney disease yet... I know it's coming in our future though :-( I am still learning. I do know that the protein loss can complicate things a lot once kidney disease sets in.

[RawfedYorkieLuv]

Hi, sorry to hear about about babies!
You can find a raw support/chat group on yahoo. I'm a member with them as well and many people on there also have dogs that have (had) a variety of health issues. They feel that these problems were brought on by feeding the wrong diet for years (kibble) in the first place and have found great success in maintaining a healthy pet with raw. BUN levels and other level ratios have been established using kibble fed test dogs and averages taken from the general pet dog population assuming all of those have been kibble fed which is the type of food we've been told is best, over and over again by professionals who should know better! I always hear from other raw feeders that their dog's BUN levels are always slightly higher than that of kibble eaters which the vets assume is bad. But then, when was the last time they saw a truly healthy dog??? Just to throw this out there real quick as info; salmonella and other bacteria is not something a dog has to worry about. Nature took care of that. Will a cow keel over every time it eats grass? Of course not and a dog can't be harmed by a food it was designed to eat by evolution. Besides, kibble can have bacteria and so can cooked food. Raw is not as high in protein as some assume, it's comparable to common brands of kibble. But the raw and pure form of the protein is what makes this so valuable for the dog as he can use the nutrients 100% vs. cooked protein sources. Canine just wasn't meant to eat fiber. These are all things that I have learned when researching raw. I must note that while I don't have dogs with BUN level issues and such, my oldest boy would've been put down last year due to chronic systemic yeast infection and he was suffering while no vet was helping him. If anything, they made it worse by telling me to feed the wrong foods and to vaccinate him even more. Systemic yeast infection is a immune system disease that my boy no longer has to suffer through these days and I'm sorry to say that I don't trust a vet anymore when it comes to nutrition anyways. IMO, no kibble or other cooked protein can possibly help a sick dog get any better. There's a lot of info out there from both sides and one has to weigh in on what he/she believes is the right way for our beloved pets! 12 years of no results had me backed into a corner and I took the raw plunge because there was nothing else left to do cause we had done it all! I didn't believe it at first either but now I can't endorse any other form of food source any longer.

[KathyinCali]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Okay...JUH-EEEZ!!!! My heart goes out to you. There are a lot of issues here.

Partially, I'm just bumping this for you. Partially, I have a few measly things to say, but not much. I do feed raw and think it's tremendous. I had terrible digestive issues with Marcel - and spent hundreds early on at the vet - without any real resolution. FINALLY, I found a nutritionist (holistic, but classically trained) who works at a vet practice in Calif. and consults via phone internationally - out of desperation, I thought, what the heck.

Well, she changed everything for Marcel. Many vets, nationally, do nutritional consults w/ her for their cancer pet patients. She does use raw for her liver patients - I don't know how - but I know that she does bc she once mentioned this in passing as she is a big believer in raw (but in variety as well). Personally, I think she is *wonderful* - and I can't say enough about her.

Marcel recommends her even more highly (my avatar). You can check her out at - www.askariel.com. I can't answer your more complicated stuff - but I know that she, perhaps in concert w/ YOUR vet as well as HER staff vet, could get you really well situated. Just my 2 cents.

Please keep me posted, if you can!

My girlfriend has used her for two of her pets with cancer and one with Cushings and she cannot say enough good about Susan Davis. Oddly enough we were just talking about her at dinner last weekend. Ann has give you some great advice! I hope you are able to get the help you need for your precious babies.

Warm regards,

[sadiesamie]

http://petcarenaturally.com/

[sadiesamie]

I checked out this yahoo support group on raw diet and they will not discuss Natures Variety. They only support prey model. That is something that I can not bring myself to do. I am interested in Natures Variety though. They have the meat and necessary veggies included in their food. I just don't know enough about it. I checked out the website but wasn't getting the info I needed to make the switch.

[RawfedYorkieLuv]

True, the prey model group does not support ground mixes and they don't believe in feeding veggies and other things. BUT there are other support groups on there that will support NV as it's formulated to the B.A.R.F diet by Dr. Billinghurst. If you search those terms on yahoo groups you will find quite a few. Depending on your location you might even find a city specific group. There are choices out there for sure and I myself feed prey model, but I would definitely advocate to start out with NV or similar pre-made raw like Primal, Bravo and others. It gets the dog used to the switch and the easy to thaw portions are easy to handle for both mom and baby. What exactly are you looking for as far as support goes? I'm always available to answer any questions and Wylie's mom is, too.

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by RawfedYorkieLuv

True, the prey model group does not support ground mixes and they don't believe in feeding veggies and other things. BUT there are other support groups on there that will support NV as it's formulated to the B.A.R.F diet by Dr. Billinghurst. If you search those terms on yahoo groups you will find quite a few. Depending on your location you might even find a city specific group. There are choices out there for sure and I myself feed prey model, but I would definitely advocate to start out with NV or similar pre-made raw like Primal, Bravo and others. It gets the dog used to the switch and the easy to thaw portions are easy to handle for both mom and baby. What exactly are you looking for as far as support goes? I'm always available to answer any questions and Wylie's mom is, too.

You are too kind! And I thank you for asking me what i am looking for as far as support goes. :-) Here is my issue:

I have 2 Yorkies. If we didn't have the kidney issues I would already be feeding the raw diet. I am not scared to feed raw at all. My husband is a little, but I am reallllly convincing him that this is the way to go. The specialist we saw won't talk about feeding raw though and that is what makes my husband worried. The specialist told my husband that he is worried about ecoli and semonella poisoning... and that is sticking in my husbands head. The specialist has helped my girls immensely with their health but I really feel like I am going to TICK him off if I go against how he feels. I really am not going to lose sleep on it either though. I don't think he knows enough about it to support his reasons really. and every day i read something about raw i show it to my husband and I pretty much have him convinced :-) the only issues I have is because the kidney protein loss scares me. I know my dogs aren't going anywhere just yet (at least I hope not) but still it worries me and it's on my mind a lot.

We have not been diagnosed with kidney failure yet... we are dealing with protein loss in the urine and high UPC ratios (7.3) And the high pancrease values due to renal loss. the UPC part could maybe get better if they were on raw diet (so i've been reading) let me add that I mean it could help them with their condition. Nothing will repair lost kidney function bc I know we are entering the early stages of that with all that has gone on with the protein loss.

BUT- Because the girls right now do not eat anything greasy ever! They are on wellness wft mgt for now because it was the lowest fat food I could find. (6-10%) I don't know if feeding raw diet is low enough in fat for them?
I checked out the venison and the chicken and also the organic ones. I have not yet checked out Primal or Bravo.

I have one dog with horrible allergies, watery eyes, the licking of the paws and the scratching they do from kibble. The wellness don't get me wrong has helped a lot. But also they are eating the poo sometimes and that tells me that they are missing something from their diet.

This food has A TON of fillers in it so the poos are constant and i have 8 piles of poo every day in the yard. They poo also is such a large amount for such little dogs. One is 6 lbs and the other is 12 lbs. it's crazy. and the poos are not as hard as i would like them to be.

This is the only thing I am afraid of- doing the switch cold turkey and causing my one with the higher pancrease values into full blown pancreatitis.
I have read that doing the switch slowly could cause digestion upset.

Both of my dogs devour the soaked kibble (that I soak overnight iin water) I hate this. 25 seconds or less and the bowl is empty. This can't be a good thing. I've tried giving small portions to slow them down but she is so hungry it's crazy!! literally. I hate feeding them they about knock me down before i put the bowls down. :-)

Maybe I could add some digestive enzymes. I've read a lot about that and was told my one nutritionist that I talked to that feed raw and add the digestive enzymes is easy.

I am not scared to feed raw- I am scared of the switch process and don't even know if anything would happen. I will be clean and sanitary with it. I will defrost over night and never leave out to thaw. It can't be any more harder than the routine I do now which is soaking the food and measuring it out each day. Washing the feeding dishes after every meal. and also washing the water bowl every other day. My dogs have had the raw last year when I contemplating making the switch and they devoured it and LOVED LOVED LOVED it. But I got scared ?? who knows why- probably the same reason every body else gets scared when they try the first time. Now I have researched a whole year and I am ready but the kidney issues are getting in my way of making the switch.

Truse me, I have told myself 5 times this w/end that TOMORROW I am going to buy the Natures Variety :-) A pet supply store sells it I could easily go and get it when I leave work on my way home tomorrow. we have a visit this coming Friday with a holistic vet- I KNOW he will tell me to feed raw. But what if he says no to raw? Oh so confused just want my girls to get the best of the best. and they are not getting it with the wellness weight mgt I don't think. :-(

I can post their values if you would like me to. The BUN i know is 60 for my one dog and 16 for my other. UPC is 7.3 and 2.3 and the lipase and amylase values are high on one dog. Only high lipase on the other.

Oh one more thing I know that phosphorus should be low for dogs with kidney problems but i don't know if raw diet is low in phosphorus?

appreciate YOU!!!

[RawfedYorkieLuv]

Sorry that it took me so long to get back to you! As other prey modelers can attest to, once one feeds prey model, meat sales and scoring free or at least cheap meat becomes an obsession and that's what I did today!
Ok, there's a lot of complex info in your post and I can appreciate your concerns since those levels ARE elevated to high. I would like to address the protein loss in your dog(s) which is not surprising given is the fact they're eating cooked, processed protein vs. RAW. Dogs only survive on kibble but do not thrive which is what we're looking for. Especially kidney and liver compromised dogs benefit from a raw diet as cooked nutrients put a strain on an already stressed system. Any vet who will deny the scientific fact that a dog is a member of the canis lupus family, sharing most of its DNA with the gray wolf and therefore is designed by nature to eat like one, is somebody who might mean well but who needs to re-educate himself and foget about the IAMS sponsored nutrition class he had in college! Looking inside a dog's mouth should clear up any confusion as those teeth were made for bringing down prey and ripping, tearing and chewing through those bones and dense meat is a piece of cake! Also looking at a dog's body from the inside and comparing that to a wolve's is more than what I needed to know and I'm not a vet! It's like if he recommended feeding a gold fish hey! There are raw friendly vets out there and while my vet does not endorse it per say, he supports me because he sees the results with my own dogs. Maybe that alone might convince him one day, but I won't hold my breath! That being said, he's a good vet who does not push yearly boosters on me as he knows that I don't vaccinate my dogs anymore beyond the 3-4 rounds of puppy shots. I come in for check-ups and things like that and I'm happy to report that my dogs are healthy beyond anything he's ever seen. The proof is too much to list here but I am convinced enough to never ever feed anything but raw to my dogs that I have now and in the future. My vet also understands that a raw fed dog will have higher red blood cell and blood urea nitrogen levels than kibble fed dogs thus the reference should probably be revised for raw fed dogs as kibble is not a natural food source for our dogs thus those levels are not realistically healthy nor normal. Translation; he doesn't freak out over my dog's blood analysis as there will be different levels than what he's used to seeing from other patients, he did do that research! Finding a vet/specialist who at a minimum will support your feeding decision is vital! I know this sounds whacky right now and I'm NOT trying to be rude, but nobody can guarantee that the switch to raw will be uneventful for your dogs. My own personal take was that if my 12 year old was to continue to eat this way (kibble) he was going to die anyways as messed up as that sounds, but he was in BAD shape. So I said that either starting raw will save him or push him over the edge! I held my breath and made peace with my decision, gave him raw and within 1 month, his health was better. He did experience detox though! Which can be expected from a dog with extensive damage! Raw is not fattier than any brand of kibble in fact, it's lower. NV raw chicken has 6% vs NV kibble 22%. Phosphorus is also lower in raw vs. kibble; raw 0.256% vs kibble brand X 1.43. Phosphorus is a vital part of a dog's diet and so is calcium. Again, we're talking about the RAW forms of those as the cooked versions cannot be properly utilized. I don't feed pre made anymore because I want to mimic mother nature as close as possible. A prey animal is made up of approx. 80% meat, 10% edible bone and 10% offal (organs). You could take a whole chicken (skin, bones, organs and all) and grind it up if you're not into whole. That would be the perfect ratio! I do not believe in veggies, fruit or any other supplements as everything a dog needs is in prey. However, if I can't get ahold of fresh, whole fish then I will substitute with wild sockeye salmon fish oil capsules. Enzymes are useless because the raw has them already. Probiotics are good when the dog is taking antibiotics for something. I'm not trying to convert you to prey model, sorry if it seems that way. Just want to point out that NV does not have the secret recipe to successful raw feeding. It's just a more convenient way! Many raw feeders grind their own food. Many feed ground raw AND give whole meaty bones to chew on because a diet, solely made up of ground does NOTHING for a dog's teeth long term! Some even get upset stomachs from pre made ground. One of my other posts addressed that previously. I understand your fears and have some websites for you to check out. the first one is geared for prey model BUT it has good answers for questions regarding the bacteria questions and such. If you already know this one, good for you! rawlearning dot com. If you need more info, there's more but I'm not sure what you already looked at.......
sorry for the extensive post yet I still don't feel like I've addressed all of your concerns but I'm not going anywhere!
My Yorkies are Toy (12 years, 10 pounds) Gia (13 months, 5 pounds) and Mahli ( almost 6 months, 19 ounces) and they all get raw meaty bones and offal. Even the tiny one! She tears through a chicken wing like a little pirahna Her mouth is so small that I'm having a really hard time brushing her teeth so this prey model thing is perfect for her!

[CupofDog]

I feed Primal Pet Foods Raw meat nuggets to my Yorkie. I like Primal because the fruits and veggies are certified organic and the proteins (meats) used are raised hormone and antibiotic free. She is THRIVING!!!
Go to Highest Quality Raw Pet Foods on this Planet

I work as a nutrition counselor at a holistic pet food store and the results I have seen on a raw diet are remarkable. Many vets are concerned about the bacteria in raw feeding, but our doggies tummies can handle it. Think about it, wolves who actually have the same digestive system as our Yorkies don't get sick from bacteria!!

The key is hygiene, hygiene, hygiene.

Never heat raw meat in a microwave, allow it to defrost overnight in the fridge. When I feed dinner each night, I put the next days food in tupperware in the fridge to defrost.

Use enzymes to help your pup absorb all the nutrients and be prepared for a detox period.
PetFlora, Holistic Digestion Aid | CupOFdog | Dog Site for Dog People
Detoxin’ Dogs | CupOFdog | Dog Site for Dog People

Only feed in Stainless Steel bowls and everything that touches the food must be washed with soap and hot water EVERY meal. This means hands, bowls, any knives or spoons used for mixing, the tupperware, etc.

Raw feeding will save your puppies!!!!