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03-23-2008, 05:58 AM | #16 | |
Furbutts = LOVE Donating Member Moderator | Quote:
As for the stuff with raw - kibble has only been around since the 1940s. Before that, our dogs were given real food. Once kibble was introduced (and all the by products and fillers - aka, allergens) - that's when we also saw dog's (and cat's) health problems skyrocket. Of course, these problems also sort of coincided w/ all of the over vaccination that started to occur as well. So, both of these things contributed to a real downward spiral in pets' health, in my estimation. When I look at what my dogs are getting, in terms of quality, from NV right now - I know in my gut they are getting superior, premium food. I know their digestion is occurring as intended (hard, small - thereby, emptying anal glands, if needed) - not smelly or large. I *feel* more confident about their health than ever before. I'm rambling...your original question is "why are others against raw, if not for higher protein?" - I suppose it could be the bacteria. But, I think we all know that's only a factor for immuno-compromised dogs - so, I don't know. Some people want proof, as in "peer reviewed journal articles" - EVEN though, there is no real proof that what they're now feeding is good (but, lots of proof, in my mind, that it is bad). Guess I can't answer your question, lol!
__________________ ~ A friend told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn. ~ °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° Ann | Pfeiffer | Marcel Verdel Purcell | Wylie | Artie °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° | |
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03-23-2008, 07:42 AM | #17 |
Phantom Queen Morrigan Donating Member | thank you for your input Wylie's Mom, i appreciate it. I like to get lots of opinions on it. the main facts everyone knows but every one usually has something to share that others don't know. Kelly brought up the protein formula which was very helpful. And you pointed out the fat content was higher. i had never thought to look at that as a reason for the vomiting.
__________________ Kellie and Morgan |
03-24-2008, 04:56 AM | #19 |
And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 17,928
| I don't feed raw for a few reasons. I have more reasons not to feed prey model than I do not to feed pre-packaged but I won't feed any of it unless I get some new information. Yes, one of my concernes in bacteria. This does (for the most part) apply only to dogs with compromised immune systems but what I'd like to know is who is the judge of whether their immune system is compromised? I never thought Ellie had a compromised immune system until she was spayed and the internal sutures didn't dissolve as fast as they should. Her body didn't attack them right away. There is no way to be 100% sure. And are we positive that this only effects compromised dogs, I'm not convinced. Food poisoning is much more rare in dogs than humans...I agree, but how much more rare, I don't think anyone knows for sure. Next, raw egg (which some prepackaged foods are held together with) can deplete your dog of biotin. I don't think there is a good reason to feed raw egg. And, I have seen zero studies on if a raw fed dog lives significantly longer than a dog eating kibble or homecooked. If they are proven to live longer, than I might consider feeding it BUT this isn't the case so far (we only have testimonials and we have those from homecooked too) and I see no reason to put Ellie's health and life in danger by giving her a mouthful of bacteria-filled meat and hoping her immune system will take care of it. There is so much risk already feeding any food (homecooked, kibble) and I see no reason to add any additional to it. I don't like dog food much either though. Homecooking is by far my favorite because the diet can be balanced with a bit less bacteria concern and dogs that eat homecooked can do very well on it. I say cook the meat and add a supplement... For prey-model diets, add the rare occurence of bone obstructions to the list (which DOES happen) which could have been avoided by brushing their teeth and giving them food. Also, vitamins aren't added to prey model and the diet isn't the least bit balanced. I don't believe this last part is just an opinion at all. So, I would like to see the dogs fed raw live significantly longer (and I don't just mean one or two of them) than dogs fed other foods. If that is the case, then it might be worth the risk.
__________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶 |
03-24-2008, 05:05 AM | #20 | |
No Longer a Member | Quote:
I tried the NV medallions, but Chloe would not eat them right away. She wanted to let them sit all day until she decided she wanted to eat them. I kept putting them in the fridge, taking them out for a few over and over. It just didnt' work for us. I know a lot of people like feeding the evo and those super high protein dog foods, but with yorkies being so prone to liver issues, it just doesn't sit well with me. fwiw, | |
03-24-2008, 05:34 AM | #21 |
Owned by Tumi & Gracie Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC
Posts: 2,321
| i had mine on Evo before switching to raw also. while I didnt mind about the high protein, i was concerned about the higher fat content. I still feed kibbles once in a while now and i just started trying Wellness Core Ocean and the love it. They are usually so picky about kibbles. It has high protein but not as much as Evo or Orijen. I only give them when i forget to defrost NV though.
__________________ PROUD MOMMY OF MS.TUMI,MS.TSUBI AND MS.GRACIE! I LOVE MY BABY GIRLS!! PROUD MEMBER OF THE CRAZY CLUB! |
04-24-2008, 05:54 PM | #22 | |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: upstate ny
Posts: 5,847
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04-25-2008, 03:07 AM | #23 | |
Phantom Queen Morrigan Donating Member | Quote:
__________________ Kellie and Morgan | |
04-25-2008, 03:50 AM | #24 | |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: upstate ny
Posts: 5,847
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04-25-2008, 04:13 AM | #25 |
Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 3,306
| I'm jumping in late here but I feed Canidae in the morning because of the bile issues - otherwise mine do the same thing with the Evo. Loki also porked out on Evo but NOT on Orijen which is interesting. Anyway, the Canidae works for us for breakfast when I have 0 time to prep anything. At night we do canned. I get the highest quality Evangers, NV or Merrick canned (right now we are trying th NV) My vet says she prefers canned to kibble and doesn't like raw at all (most vets dont I assume). Anyway, they seem to like the canned and it is minimally processed. I feed them whatever we eat if it's something they can have, but often they are hungry at 4 and we eat at 6 Plus we have been eating out a lot lately so thats why we looked into the canned. Do you all see that as an alternative? Or not so much? Just wondering.
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04-25-2008, 05:15 AM | #26 | |
Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA
Posts: 7,178
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__________________ Miko 's his Mommy | |
04-25-2008, 11:04 AM | #27 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Glendale/AZ
Posts: 237
| Raw and the Question I hope ya'll don't mind that I jump in, this thread may be "cooked" already, but just in case it isn't. Here I go; I'm a prey model feeder by conviction. As you can see from my signature, I have 3 Yorkies with different age (and weight) levels. I used to feed all sorts of brands of kibble, switched to grain free kibble, home cooked and moved on to pre-made raw. I ended up on prey model because what I learned through my endless hours of research made sense. Everything else does not, although pre-made RAW aka NV, Primal etc. is not perfect, but comes pretty close . I have an immune system compromised dog that has been through the wringer for 11 years because I listened to the so called experts! Thousands upon thousands of dollars were spent on Vet/Specialist bills, meds, prescription foods, elimination diet, more meds, allergy shots, special shampoos and tinctures, surgery, you name it, we've done it! He has what's known as Systemic Yeast Infection and he was suffering to no end when I even considered putting him down last year. RAW has saved his life! Putting an end to the ever invasive booster shots has saved his life! My dogs get whole meaty bones of various animals and their organ meats. Whole fish and whole RAW eggs which is all that a dog, a member of the Canidae family of the order Carnivora needs to thrive on. Proper balance is a myth word, made up by the kibble gangsters in order to market and sell their inferior crap, making a dog owner feel insecure about proper diet thus achieving revenue of course because people wanted to feed what they've been told by professionals is best for their dog! Now the dog supplement sellers have jumped on that bandwagon as well! No conclusive studies on dog diet exist. The kibble companies tested X number of dogs for X number of days (I have to re-check, but I think two weeks) and all it proved that those dogs could SURVIVE on kibble. This was apparently good enough for the FDA to give the green light for manufacturing. Scary, isn't it!? I know of a raw fed cat study and the outcome showed RAW as superior over anything else that was tested on them. Are there any studies on home cooked diets? I have never heard of any. Brushing their teeth alone did not cut it. Chewing, ripping, tearing has made their mouth tartar free, stink free and gum disease free. Mahli never even had that problem to begin with as she started on prey model as soon as she got here. Gia was started on pre-made RAW. Toy used to be over weight, not anymore! I could go on and on about the benefits I personally witnessed with my senior dog! I wouldn't feed my gold fish grass or my rabbit last night's Spaghetti Dinner so I'm feeding my carnivore babies what they were meant to eat according to mother nature. The make up of the teeth/jaw and the digestive bio chemistry is the same as their ancestor, the gray wolf. Heck, even the pack behavior is the same. These are scientific facts, widely accepted world wide and pellet foods or cooked foods can't be the right answer. Why is it that other carnivores in captivity get to eat RAW but we are denying this to our domesticated pets? It doesn't make sense to me to cook these important nutrients out of a dog's food and then add them back in. I don't want to pump my dogs full of artificial supplements/vitamins, bone meal and who knows what. How do we know that THIS is safe, healthy or even beneficial? Are there studies on this? How does one know the difference a RAW diet could make if never even tried? Aren't the risks of NOT feeding a species appropriate diet higher in the long run? As long as Vets can make a profit from it, they will continue to push kibble. The only profit anybody makes on my feeding is the grocery store/butcher and they don't advertise their meats as dog specific. My Vet doesn't make a lot of money on me either as I never have to come in other than tests that I ORDER on my dogs because I want concrete proof in the readings. Today's dogs may look different as man made breeding practises took form but their biological needs have not changed. The two oldest of my dogs have had blood tests and physicals that show amazing results never seen before by my new Vet as I'm the only prey model feeder at his clinic and the puppy will be next after a while of prey model eating. He honestly admitted that he would have never guessed Toy's true age and to keep doing what I was doing as he looks amazing! Thousands of other people around the world are reporting healthy, spunky dogs fed on RAW. The RAW chat groups that I'm a member of are each other's support because there are so many doubters in the world that constantly want to talk down RAW and keep bringing up these myths that have been explained, debunked and discredited over and over again. All of my fellow raw feeder friends have reported similar stories of past and present. People will raise/feed THEIR dogs the way THEY see fit. My only hope is that one day in the near future, those people will realize that NOT to feed RAW is THEIR choice- not the dog's! I KNOW that MY dogs cannot handle cooked and/or processed proteins or vegetables because since eating RAW, Toy eats his meals with gusto, doesn't vomit, has nice small firm black stools and even his behavior has changed for the better! He choked on kibble before (doggie Heimlich is interesting to say the least) and he choked on a piece of carrot before, I'm not at all scared that he'll choke on his meaty bone because given whole there are no problems with obstruction. There are many vids on youtube, showing how a dog eats prey model, it's worth checking out. I might make one of those and post it here.... Is it that unknowing people envision a dog hold a meaty bone with his paws and bite off a chunk of it to swallow whole???? It's very different that that and actually beautiful to watch! Again, I'm very active in the prey model community and the only reports about chocking on bones and/or obstruction/bloat was with either a non food object all together, cooked bones or kibble. I hope that this didn't sound like an angry rant as it was just meant as a tale, if you will, of a prey model feeder, a personal experience and a nudge to all dog lovers to give this way of feeding a real fighting chance! Sorry, if this was off topic a bit! XOXOXO Nadia </IMG></IMG>
__________________ ~*Nadia & Her Pack Of 3 Wonderful Yorkies Toy* Gia* Mahli*~ Member Of The PMR Club (Prey Model Raw feeding) |
04-25-2008, 03:29 PM | #28 |
Phantom Queen Morrigan Donating Member | i bile acid tested morgan a few weeks ago. pre was 45 and post was 65. slightly high but nothing that points toward liver shunt. And its really really low to be MVD. she's asymptomatic. the internist i spoke with said i didn't have to change her diet to low protein since she wasn't showing symptoms and the holistic vet said the best thing i could do was to put her back on raw. she loves it.
__________________ Kellie and Morgan |
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