Update: Liver test results back

[sallen15]

I posted about a week, week and a half ago about my sister's 3-year-old Yorkie Bogey having 4 seizures this year and the vet said he was either epileptic or was suffering from a liver shunt.

Well on Monday Bogey went to the vet and had an Acid Bile Test performed. My sister just called me with his results, they were elevated.

On one test his level was 7.6 with the normal level being 7
on the second test it was 15.5 with the normal being 15.

He goes Monday to a specialist to have an ultrasound done and maybe another test. Does anyone know anything about these levels. Is there hope that he will just need a special diet and not surgery?

[JillandJack]

Sending good thoughts your way.

[diggy4]

My vet explained there are 2 diffrent machines that do the tests...So reading results depends on which machine you use...I had never heard of this. I also do not think 15.5 is elevated I would say 15.5 is a good result and shows no sign of compromised liver....hopefully someone else will post and see if Im right

[sallen15]

hmm i'm not sure which type of machine our vet used they had to send the bloodwork out to get results.

Diggy4 I hope you are right and they are not elevated but all I know is that
the vet told my sister that a normal reading on the first test was a 7 and Bogey tested a 7.6 and the second test a normal reading was 15 with Bogey testing at 15.5.

She then told my sister they were elevated and that she needed to go and get these other tests done. When I first saw the results I thought it was a good sign that they were not too elevated, but I'm concerned and have been trying to find out as much info as I can for my sister.

Everyone here at YT is always so knowledgable and caring and it def. makes me feel better hearing the advice of wiser and experienced Yorkie owners. Even though I've had a yorkie since I was born and that's the only pet my mom's every owned, I didn't realize how much we had to learn about these special babies.

Thanks again everyone!

[drawlins27]

Those levels are not high enough to indicate that a liver problem is causing the seizures.

It is most likely that Bogey's seizures are due to idiopathic epilepsy. Idiopathic epilepsy is common and means that the cause of the seizures cannot be identified whereas symptomatic epilepsy can be attributed to a cause.

Dogs with Idiopathic epilepsy usually experience their first seizure at 1 -5 years old. There is no test for Idiopathic epilepsy. It is only diagnosed by ruling out other causes. Typically a vet will not give medication for Idiopathic epilepsy unless the seizures are severe or are occurring on a frequent basis. What they will have you to do is time the seizures and keep track of their frequency. A seizure that last for under 15 minutes is not usually life threatening. If the seizure lasts longer or occurs one right after another (cluster seizures) then they can be dangerous and must be treated right away.

Your sister's vet should do a full blood panel to rule out other causes. If she wants to go further and rule out serious causes that can't be diagnosed with blood work, she can have an MRI done which is expensive and not widely available.

If her vet determines that the seizures are idiopathic, then have her ask for a dose of rectal valium (the valium should be kept out of the light because it will break it down and make it less effective). The valium is only to be administered if the seizure lasts longer than 15 minutes or is particularly violent. This should bring him out of the seizure and will help to prevent lasting damage until she can get him to a vet.

[drawlins27]

Generally, the bile acid levels would be 100 or greater post meal if he had a shunt.

[diggy4]

Okay I called my vet that did Diggy's Bile Acid. They said this.
Every machine is diffrent where they get thier ranges is from an average of readings/tests.

The particular Machine my vet used has the following range

0-12 Normal
13-25 Retest
25+ Retest and treat as Compromised Liver.

Diggy's results were 5 pre 7 post so he was comsidered within range.

Now my other vet (yes I have 2) 1 use one for everyday stuff and the other is more state of the art brand new facility I use for Tests.

Now my everyday vets machines scale is this
0-15 Normal
15-25 Possible MVD retest
25+ Possible shunt retest

I asked is a dogs test came in at 15.5 would that be cause for alarm they said NO, they recommend retesting for peace of mind but the 15.5 on either scale is still considerably low being they see reading of 100+ If it was me I would go to lowered protein diet for a month then do another Bile Acid test.
Im no expert but being I thought Diggy was a liver compromised baby I spent MANY hours reading into this and I honestly would not be overly concerned with a 15.5. Can she call the vet and get exact #'s of the scale they use?

Maybe some other YT'ers will have diffrent view on this....and have more options you could explore. This is just what I would do. Hope this helps!

[diggy4]

Originally Posted by drawlins27

Those levels are not high enough to indicate that a liver problem is causing the seizures.

It is most likely that Bogey's seizures are due to idiopathic epilepsy. Idiopathic epilepsy is common and means that the cause of the seizures cannot be identified whereas symptomatic epilepsy can be attributed to a cause.

Dogs with Idiopathic epilepsy usually experience their first seizure at 1 -5 years old. There is no test for Idiopathic epilepsy. It is only diagnosed by ruling out other causes. Typically a vet will not give medication for Idiopathic epilepsy unless the seizures are severe or are occurring on a frequent basis. What they will have you to do is time the seizures and keep track of their frequency. A seizure that last for under 15 minutes is not usually life threatening. If the seizure lasts longer or occurs one right after another (cluster seizures) then they can be dangerous and must be treated right away.

Your sister's vet should do a full blood panel to rule out other causes. If she wants to go further and rule out serious causes that can't be diagnosed with blood work, she can have an MRI done which is expensive and not widely available.

If her vet determines that the seizures are idiopathic, then have her ask for a dose of rectal valium (the valium should be kept out of the light because it will break it down and make it less effective). The valium is only to be administered if the seizure lasts longer than 15 minutes or is particularly violent. This should bring him out of the seizure and will help to prevent lasting damage until she can get him to a vet.

Good post I forgot to add like Drawlins said for his Liver function to be causing seizures....His level would have to be wayyyy higher than a 15.5 on either scale. Diggy was having seizures also but ended up another issue not liver. I would guess he would be more symptomatic also! Headpressing, wobbly, pawing face about an hour after eating, seeing things that are not there, etc.

[paulapoo]

I would be interested to know what the results of the liver enzymes were (Alt, Ast, Alk Phos). I personally would not be alarmed with those BAT results especially if he's not sympotmatic. I would definately retest in a few months. Otis's post was 53 in May and I plan to have him retested in about a month.

[diggy4]

Originally Posted by paulapoo

I would be interested to know what the results of the liver enzymes were (Alt, Ast, Alk Phos). I personally would not be alarmed with those BAT results especially if he's not sympotmatic. I would definately retest in a few months. Otis's post was 53 in May and I plan to have him retested in about a month.

Did your vet give you a scale of what is normal for the machine he uses?? How is my lil Otie Wodie schmodie Dodie?? I havent spoke to him...his MOTHER was not online when I got home last night.

Does anyone know of lower protien food that Sallen's sister can try?? I know Innova Evo is HIGH and Paulapoo I know you were researching low protein treats and foods...did you find any?

[Yorkieluv]

The levels would not have to be over 100 to indicate a liver problem...Anything elevated could show that there may be issues with the liver.
MVD is usually seen with levels ranging from just above normal to 100. And liver shunt levels over 100, but there are always exceptions. I know one yorkie who had a liver shunt and the levels were under 100, and I know of another yorkie whose levels were over 100 and did not have a liver shunt but had MVD.
But I totally agree with everyone else, those numbers do not sound all that high to me...They're soooo close to being normal, that I don't know what that indicates. Could be a different liver issue, or just something else that's slightly throwing the numbers off. Is your sister's yorkie on any medications or did she recently administer heartworm preventative or flea preventative?
If you have any questions, I would definitely recommend that you join the liver shunt and mvd group on yahoo groups. They will be able to answer questions for you and you could research their files section to get more answers...
As far as low protein foods, there are several that you can give your dog.
Natural Balance Vegetarian
Avoderm Vegetarian
Solid Gold Holistique Blendz

[Patti]

Cali's were Pre 0 and post 80-90 can't recall exactly and on retest she was o/37 and we did ultrasound, liver biopsy and she was diagnosed with mild MVD internal shunt that required no treatment. Maybe you could email Univ of Tenn liver shunt study as they are very good about responding and they are the experts. I hate to see your sister spend a lot of money if it's not necessary but I totally understand not taking any chances.

[sallen15]

WOW thanks for all the responses and all the suggestions/insight. She had a full panel of bloodwork done last week and nothing showed up and so the vet recommended the acid bile test and he just said that 7 was normal on the first test, Bogey tested 7.6. 15 is normal on the second test Bogey tested at a 15.5 and that his results were elevated. And then she suggested that my sister go and have some other tests done at a clinic that has an ultrasound machine and more resources than the vet office. So she will be going on Monday to have that done.

But from reading through the posts I have a feeling that he doesn't have a liver shunt, at least thats what i'm praying for. As far as his seizures go the vet said it could be from the liver or epilepsy, but I guess his bloodwork was fine that is why she continued to the Acid Bile test to rule out the liver. I know that his seizures don't last longer than 15 minutes, and he doesn't pass out or anything. Just pants heavily, drools, and then will sometimes, pee, poop or throw-up afterwards. During the seizure he shakes (obvious i know) and right before he gets one he paralyzes.

[sallen15]

Originally Posted by Patti

Cali's were Pre 0 and post 80-90 can't recall exactly and on retest she was o/37 and we did ultrasound, liver biopsy and she was diagnosed with mild MVD internal shunt that required no treatment. Maybe you could email Univ of Tenn liver shunt study as they are very good about responding and they are the experts. I hate to see your sister spend a lot of money if it's not necessary but I totally understand not taking any chances.

I hadn't thought about that about having her email them. I just graduated from the University of Tennessee in May, my degree is in Journalism and Political Science. But I think there might have been a girl in my sorority who was applying to vet school at UT. I wonder if she has been working on the study.

[drawlins27]

Originally Posted by sallen15

I hadn't thought about that about having her email them. I just graduated from the University of Tennessee in May, my degree is in Journalism and Political Science. But I think there might have been a girl in my sorority who was applying to vet school at UT. I wonder if she has been working on the study.

Dr. Tobias at UT is great! She did surgery on my Lily. However, with bile acids that low, they will not recommend further testing as to determining whether or not a liver problem exists. They will most likely suggest you wait and retest in a few months.

UT also have a neurology department that can help with the seizures. They treated Lily for hydrocephalus and were very good. You cannot call and make an appointment though, your vet has to do a referral.