Seizures and/or Liver Disease Help :o( - YorkieTalk.com Forums

cookie_monster · 10-14-2012, 11:44 AM

Hello Yorkie parents!

You may recall from my last post inquiring about Milk Thistle and is where I mentioned that Cookie has seizures and abnormal liver function.

I’m hoping that I can get some help and see what your opinions are or if anyone had similar cases.

The day after Christmas last year, Cookie had her first seizure (she was 2.5yrs old at the time). I was scared straight as any dog owner who experienced it would know. Since then, she had seizures every 3 months, then every 3 weeks, then every 2 weeks, and now about every 1.5 – 2 weeks.

I brought Cookie in to see her Vet as soon as she had her first seizure. From there, she had blood tests which showed bile acid test being abnormal (unfortunately I do not know the numbers). Had a liver ultrasound which R/O liver shunt but showed that she had a smaller liver. As more seizures progressed she was then referred to a Neurologist.

The neurologist did a neurologic exam which was normal, had another set of bile acid which was abnormal again, and ultrasound around the outside lining of the live because a vessel may sometime be on the outside of the liver (the first ultrasound did not examine these areas -I now think it's a money grabber..anyways). That came back normal R/O shunt again but this time, the liver was normal in size. Cookie was placed on anti-seizure medication (she on Levetiracetam 125mg TID – it’s the generic of Keppra). The medication is not working (which I’m thinking of taking her off of –let me know what you think). He suggests a MRI of the head and liver biopsy. He states that while already under the knife, he may be able to visually see if there is a vessel on the outside liver which couldn’t be picked up on an ultrasound because the vessel is very very small.

I’m holding off on the MRI for now as her neurologic exam is normal. I’m contemplating on having the liver biopsy done just to see if there is an underlying liver problem but before I go through with this I would like any suggests and help.

I’ve reached online, and am possibly thinking she may have hepatic encephalitis (I’m no expert of course).

I am extremely concerned. I would go in debt for my doghter (dog+daughter). But if I were to, I’m hoping I’m going the right way.

About Cookie:

She’s now 3yrs and 4months. Her first seizure was at 2yrs 6months. She’s about 9lbs. She’s not spayed (I was planning to matte her thinking that she was healthy but of cause not now but will definitely spay her once i decide what to do). She doesn’t really like other dogs (another reason to spay her of cause now -I’ve brought her to parks and puppy school). She eats, drink and washroom normally. She likes to sleep, very much a lap dog. She at times tremor (probably b/c of the illness). She’s on Prescription Diet L/D. That's all I can think of right now.

Your help is much appreciated.

Many Thanks

Cookie’s mommy

Yorkiemom1 · 10-15-2012, 06:07 AM

I would be going to a vet school for further work up and diagnosis. You have all the specialists right there under one roof and they have all the cutting edge equipment available.....

107barney · 10-15-2012, 09:12 AM

I have a dog w/ seizure disorder (epilepsy) and I did all the testing. However, he had liver problems already ruled out. My dog is medicated with zonisamide and he has seizures despite medication. I will never take him off medication.

Sandyd · 10-15-2012, 09:28 AM

Please don't just remove your pup from antiseizure medication as removing it without slow reduction can cause more seizures. Having a pup with seizures can be a journey finding the cause and solution. And seizure activity can be triggered by a lot of different things. If you're not keeping a seizure log, I would start immediately.

I know that Keppra, or the generic label, can be used alone as a seizure medication but most likely it is used in conjunction with pheno and/or potasium bromide. I would highly suggest finding a doctor who is knoweldgeable about the different causes of seizures so other steps can be taken. I would not stop the Keppra as another medicine would most likely be added or your pup would be weened off while another med was ramped up.

I have a 7 yr old Yorkie, Spanky, who was first diagnosed with liver shunt and placed on pheno. Spanky was having anywhere from 4 to 8 seizures a month. After a year of no relief, we found a new vet who had more knowledge and further testing was done. It was determined that Spanky does not have a shunt at all but is now diagnosed with epilepsy. Since the pheno alone wasn't reducing his seizures, potasium bromide was added at the beginning of this year and for the first time ever in August and September he only had one seizure each month.

We have had to take blood tests to monitor his medication levels every 6 weeks or so while increasing his medications to get where he are now. Once he stabilizes, we may be able to start testing every 6 months as long as he's having only 1 seizure or less a month. We're not quite there yet though.

Continue with milk thistle whether your pup has a shunt or liver issues now. Milk thistle will help to protect the liver especially if placed on pheno. Most of us who have dogs with seizures use milk thistle as a supplement.

Keep us updated on your journey !

Sandy

Yorkiemom1 · 10-15-2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandyd

Please don't just remove your pup from antiseizure medication as removing it without slow reduction can cause more seizures. Having a pup with seizures can be a journey finding the cause and solution. And seizure activity can be triggered by a lot of different things. If you're not keeping a seizure log, I would start immediately.

I know that Keppra, or the generic label, can be used alone as a seizure medication but most likely it is used in conjunction with pheno and/or potasium bromide. I would highly suggest finding a doctor who is knoweldgeable about the different causes of seizures so other steps can be taken. I would not stop the Keppra as another medicine would most likely be added or your pup would be weened off while another med was ramped up.

I have a 7 yr old Yorkie, Spanky, who was first diagnosed with liver shunt and placed on pheno. Spanky was having anywhere from 4 to 8 seizures a month. After a year of no relief, we found a new vet who had more knowledge and further testing was done. It was determined that Spanky does not have a shunt at all but is now diagnosed with epilepsy. Since the pheno alone wasn't reducing his seizures, potasium bromide was added at the beginning of this year and for the first time ever in August and September he only had one seizure each month.

We have had to take blood tests to monitor his medication levels every 6 weeks or so while increasing his medications to get where he are now. Once he stabilizes, we may be able to start testing every 6 months as long as he's having only 1 seizure or less a month. We're not quite there yet though.

Continue with milk thistle whether your pup has a shunt or liver issues now. Milk thistle will help to protect the liver especially if placed on pheno. Most of us who have dogs with seizures use milk thistle as a supplement.

Keep us updated on your journey !

Sandy

cookie_monster · 10-15-2012, 06:24 PM

Hi Sandyd

Thank you for your advice.

By no means when I said if I were to take her off her anti-seizure med was I going to do it without weaning it.

Did your little one have a liver biopsy done? do you recommend that Cookie goes for one? also, did Spanky do a head MRI?

How is Milk Thistle given? is it a capsule or powder formula? and how much is recommended?

cookie_monster · 10-23-2012, 07:49 PM

anyone else with thoughts on this topic?

should i proceed with the biopsy and/or MRI?

Yorkiemom1 · 10-24-2012, 03:22 PM

The Milk Thistle I give is ordered from Canada, so you are in great shape there! I am at work right now, but when I get home I will send you the name of where I get it. It is a liquid, this particular brand you give 2 drops for every lb of weight, and it comes in a 3 oz bottle....I have used Milk Thistle for years, just as a supplement because I dont like having to use all the chemicals we use on our babies...heart worm med, flea meds, tick meds, etc......I think it is just plain good for them and helps the liver function much more effeciently....I have no experience with owning a baby with liver shunt or liver disease, so I will leave that to ones on here that do...I personally would be engaging specialists in that field..

cookie_monster · 10-26-2012, 11:04 PM

Thanks Yorkiemom1,

If you could let me know where you get your Milk Thistle from, that would be great!

Thanks!

kjc · 10-27-2012, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookie_monster

Thanks Yorkiemom1,

If you could let me know where you get your Milk Thistle from, that would be great!

Thanks!

Your vet may carry it: Denamarin contains Milk Thistle and Sam-E

NicoleMarie · 10-29-2012, 03:13 PM

I feel your pain. My own nightmare started 3 months ago, when my 3yr old Morkie had his first seizure. I guess we are at the beginning and don't have much answers yet.
My Morkie, Cruz had his first Seizure in July. Blood work came back abnormal for liver enzymes. They did a bile acid test and nothing too high but wanted to test again in 8 weeks. Cruz ended up having another seizure 2 weeks ago. They re-tested his Bile Acid's and his numbers have gone up (Pre 29 & Post 58). We go to a specialist Thursday for an ultrasound to look for a possible liver shunt. I hope everything works out for you & Cookie and you find out some answers soon!

cookie_monster · 11-06-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NicoleMarie

I feel your pain. My own nightmare started 3 months ago, when my 3yr old Morkie had his first seizure. I guess we are at the beginning and don't have much answers yet.
My Morkie, Cruz had his first Seizure in July. Blood work came back abnormal for liver enzymes. They did a bile acid test and nothing too high but wanted to test again in 8 weeks. Cruz ended up having another seizure 2 weeks ago. They re-tested his Bile Acid's and his numbers have gone up (Pre 29 & Post 58). We go to a specialist Thursday for an ultrasound to look for a possible liver shunt. I hope everything works out for you & Cookie and you find out some answers soon!

I wish Morkie all the best, I'd love to be updated with how things are going... maybe Morkie and Cookie can fight through this together...

As of right now, I have not done too much with Cookie. She had a seizure couple days ago but it was 3 weeks since her last one. I still haven't decided about the doing the Biopsy.

lillymae · 11-06-2012, 10:55 PM

I would have the MRI of the head done since the liver tests have been inconsistent. Your baby may have a liver issue but the symptoms you describe can also be that of Chiari malformation & I would want to rule that out before cutting on her for a biopsy and Chiari can show inconsistent liver test results.
I'll be praying for your baby.

NicoleMarie · 11-07-2012, 04:04 AM

We went to see the internal medicine specialist and he did a ultrasound. He wasn't able to see any external shunts but said they couldn't be ruled out. He also said Cruz too had a small liver and he talked a lot about Microvascular Dyplasia. He mentioned the biopsy to me too, it's the only way to diagnose MVD but I chose not to at this time. There is no cure for MVD just diet &meds so biopsy or not the treatment plan would still be the same. I am not saying I am opposed to it just now. After talking with my regular vet and some other breeders ( not Cruz's) just a family friend we thought because Cruz has no other symptoms to try the less invasive route first. So Cruz is going on Hills Prescription L/d. My vet was out so its coming this week. But in the mean time I have eliminated all of Cruz's treats ands bones. We are going to retest his bile acids in a month and go from there.

I just realized our babies are just about the same age. Cruz turned 3 on 9/1. I am in NY but i got Cruz in canada, funny right? Does Cookie have any other symptoms besides seizures? That's the hardest thing for me right now. He only had 2 seizures and shows no other symptoms its hard to believe he could be sick. My vet also doesn't want to rule out epilepsy just yet either. But I am hoping and praying these seizures never come back or become more frequent. You just feel so helpless as I am sure you know.

Did you ever have another bile acid test done? Maybe it could help detect if the diet is helping him or not and if meds should be added.

cookie_monster · 11-14-2012, 08:55 PM

lillymae - thanks for your input

Cookies bile acid results were:

Feb 29/12: Pre 38.2 Post 25.8
Jun 27/2012: Pre 11.8 Post 49.9

NicoleMarie: I apologies for calling Cruz, Morkie, I just realized it after I posted the post.

I sort of feel the same about not having the Biopsy and MRI. There is no cure for Seizures. Cookie has been on the Hills L/D since she started having seizures. Now, I plan to cook her food, not sure yet.

Only symptom that i noticed about Cookie is that she has tremor. Otherwise she seems like a very healthy dog.

I hope Cruz doesn't have any more seizures.... it's very tough to watch. The last seizure (this past Sunday) Cookie had seemed longer than usual. She didn't scream as much but the running/paddling motion lasted longer.

10-14-2012, 11:44 AM	#1
cookie_monster YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Seizures and/or Liver Disease Help :o( Hello Yorkie parents! You may recall from my last post inquiring about Milk Thistle and is where I mentioned that Cookie has seizures and abnormal liver function. I’m hoping that I can get some help and see what your opinions are or if anyone had similar cases. The day after Christmas last year, Cookie had her first seizure (she was 2.5yrs old at the time). I was scared straight as any dog owner who experienced it would know. Since then, she had seizures every 3 months, then every 3 weeks, then every 2 weeks, and now about every 1.5 – 2 weeks. I brought Cookie in to see her Vet as soon as she had her first seizure. From there, she had blood tests which showed bile acid test being abnormal (unfortunately I do not know the numbers). Had a liver ultrasound which R/O liver shunt but showed that she had a smaller liver. As more seizures progressed she was then referred to a Neurologist. The neurologist did a neurologic exam which was normal, had another set of bile acid which was abnormal again, and ultrasound around the outside lining of the live because a vessel may sometime be on the outside of the liver (the first ultrasound did not examine these areas -I now think it's a money grabber..anyways). That came back normal R/O shunt again but this time, the liver was normal in size. Cookie was placed on anti-seizure medication (she on Levetiracetam 125mg TID – it’s the generic of Keppra). The medication is not working (which I’m thinking of taking her off of –let me know what you think). He suggests a MRI of the head and liver biopsy. He states that while already under the knife, he may be able to visually see if there is a vessel on the outside liver which couldn’t be picked up on an ultrasound because the vessel is very very small. I’m holding off on the MRI for now as her neurologic exam is normal. I’m contemplating on having the liver biopsy done just to see if there is an underlying liver problem but before I go through with this I would like any suggests and help. I’ve reached online, and am possibly thinking she may have hepatic encephalitis (I’m no expert of course). I am extremely concerned. I would go in debt for my doghter (dog+daughter). But if I were to, I’m hoping I’m going the right way. About Cookie: She’s now 3yrs and 4months. Her first seizure was at 2yrs 6months. She’s about 9lbs. She’s not spayed (I was planning to matte her thinking that she was healthy but of cause not now but will definitely spay her once i decide what to do). She doesn’t really like other dogs (another reason to spay her of cause now -I’ve brought her to parks and puppy school). She eats, drink and washroom normally. She likes to sleep, very much a lap dog. She at times tremor (probably b/c of the illness). She’s on Prescription Diet L/D. That's all I can think of right now. Your help is much appreciated. Many Thanks Cookie’s mommy

10-15-2012, 09:12 AM	#3
107barney T. Bumpkins & Co. Donating YT Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New England Posts: 9,816	I have a dog w/ seizure disorder (epilepsy) and I did all the testing. However, he had liver problems already ruled out. My dog is medicated with zonisamide and he has seizures despite medication. I will never take him off medication. __________________ T. Bumpkins & Co. Washable Doggie Pee Pads (Save 10% Enter YTSAVE10 at checkout) Cathy, Teddy, Winston and Baby Clyde...RIP angels Barney and Daisy

10-15-2012, 09:28 AM	#4
Sandyd Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Rosemount, MN, USA Posts: 27	Please don't just remove your pup from antiseizure medication as removing it without slow reduction can cause more seizures. Having a pup with seizures can be a journey finding the cause and solution. And seizure activity can be triggered by a lot of different things. If you're not keeping a seizure log, I would start immediately. I know that Keppra, or the generic label, can be used alone as a seizure medication but most likely it is used in conjunction with pheno and/or potasium bromide. I would highly suggest finding a doctor who is knoweldgeable about the different causes of seizures so other steps can be taken. I would not stop the Keppra as another medicine would most likely be added or your pup would be weened off while another med was ramped up. I have a 7 yr old Yorkie, Spanky, who was first diagnosed with liver shunt and placed on pheno. Spanky was having anywhere from 4 to 8 seizures a month. After a year of no relief, we found a new vet who had more knowledge and further testing was done. It was determined that Spanky does not have a shunt at all but is now diagnosed with epilepsy. Since the pheno alone wasn't reducing his seizures, potasium bromide was added at the beginning of this year and for the first time ever in August and September he only had one seizure each month. We have had to take blood tests to monitor his medication levels every 6 weeks or so while increasing his medications to get where he are now. Once he stabilizes, we may be able to start testing every 6 months as long as he's having only 1 seizure or less a month. We're not quite there yet though. Continue with milk thistle whether your pup has a shunt or liver issues now. Milk thistle will help to protect the liver especially if placed on pheno. Most of us who have dogs with seizures use milk thistle as a supplement. Keep us updated on your journey ! Sandy __________________ Spanky ~ Rescued 12/2010 Bobby ~ Rescued 4/2012

10-15-2012, 06:07 AM	#2
Yorkiemom1 Rosehill Yorkies Donating YT Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 9,462	I would be going to a vet school for further work up and diagnosis. You have all the specialists right there under one roof and they have all the cutting edge equipment available.....

10-15-2012, 06:24 PM	#6
cookie_monster YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Hi Sandyd Thank you for your advice. By no means when I said if I were to take her off her anti-seizure med was I going to do it without weaning it. Did your little one have a liver biopsy done? do you recommend that Cookie goes for one? also, did Spanky do a head MRI? How is Milk Thistle given? is it a capsule or powder formula? and how much is recommended?

10-23-2012, 07:49 PM	#7
cookie_monster YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 9	anyone else with thoughts on this topic? should i proceed with the biopsy and/or MRI?

10-24-2012, 03:22 PM	#8
Yorkiemom1 Rosehill Yorkies Donating YT Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 9,462	The Milk Thistle I give is ordered from Canada, so you are in great shape there! I am at work right now, but when I get home I will send you the name of where I get it. It is a liquid, this particular brand you give 2 drops for every lb of weight, and it comes in a 3 oz bottle....I have used Milk Thistle for years, just as a supplement because I dont like having to use all the chemicals we use on our babies...heart worm med, flea meds, tick meds, etc......I think it is just plain good for them and helps the liver function much more effeciently....I have no experience with owning a baby with liver shunt or liver disease, so I will leave that to ones on here that do...I personally would be engaging specialists in that field..

10-26-2012, 11:04 PM	#9
cookie_monster YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Thanks Yorkiemom1, If you could let me know where you get your Milk Thistle from, that would be great! Thanks!

10-29-2012, 03:13 PM	#11
NicoleMarie Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: New York Posts: 52	I feel your pain. My own nightmare started 3 months ago, when my 3yr old Morkie had his first seizure. I guess we are at the beginning and don't have much answers yet. My Morkie, Cruz had his first Seizure in July. Blood work came back abnormal for liver enzymes. They did a bile acid test and nothing too high but wanted to test again in 8 weeks. Cruz ended up having another seizure 2 weeks ago. They re-tested his Bile Acid's and his numbers have gone up (Pre 29 & Post 58). We go to a specialist Thursday for an ultrasound to look for a possible liver shunt. I hope everything works out for you & Cookie and you find out some answers soon!

11-06-2012, 10:55 PM	#13
lillymae YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Idaho Posts: 4,544	I would have the MRI of the head done since the liver tests have been inconsistent. Your baby may have a liver issue but the symptoms you describe can also be that of Chiari malformation & I would want to rule that out before cutting on her for a biopsy and Chiari can show inconsistent liver test results. I'll be praying for your baby.

11-07-2012, 04:04 AM	#14
NicoleMarie Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: New York Posts: 52	We went to see the internal medicine specialist and he did a ultrasound. He wasn't able to see any external shunts but said they couldn't be ruled out. He also said Cruz too had a small liver and he talked a lot about Microvascular Dyplasia. He mentioned the biopsy to me too, it's the only way to diagnose MVD but I chose not to at this time. There is no cure for MVD just diet &meds so biopsy or not the treatment plan would still be the same. I am not saying I am opposed to it just now. After talking with my regular vet and some other breeders ( not Cruz's) just a family friend we thought because Cruz has no other symptoms to try the less invasive route first. So Cruz is going on Hills Prescription L/d. My vet was out so its coming this week. But in the mean time I have eliminated all of Cruz's treats ands bones. We are going to retest his bile acids in a month and go from there. I just realized our babies are just about the same age. Cruz turned 3 on 9/1. I am in NY but i got Cruz in canada, funny right? Does Cookie have any other symptoms besides seizures? That's the hardest thing for me right now. He only had 2 seizures and shows no other symptoms its hard to believe he could be sick. My vet also doesn't want to rule out epilepsy just yet either. But I am hoping and praying these seizures never come back or become more frequent. You just feel so helpless as I am sure you know. Did you ever have another bile acid test done? Maybe it could help detect if the diet is helping him or not and if meds should be added.

11-14-2012, 08:55 PM	#15
cookie_monster YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 9	lillymae - thanks for your input Cookies bile acid results were: Feb 29/12: Pre 38.2 Post 25.8 Jun 27/2012: Pre 11.8 Post 49.9 NicoleMarie: I apologies for calling Cruz, Morkie, I just realized it after I posted the post. I sort of feel the same about not having the Biopsy and MRI. There is no cure for Seizures. Cookie has been on the Hills L/D since she started having seizures. Now, I plan to cook her food, not sure yet. Only symptom that i noticed about Cookie is that she has tremor. Otherwise she seems like a very healthy dog. I hope Cruz doesn't have any more seizures.... it's very tough to watch. The last seizure (this past Sunday) Cookie had seemed longer than usual. She didn't scream as much but the running/paddling motion lasted longer.