High Bile Acid Test, HELP!! Liver shunt?? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Meichelle · 07-24-2021, 07:52 PM

So for starters, Im sorry if Im posting in the wrong area.. Please forgive if I am..
I just found out thro a bile acid test that my little Laylah, a 3yr old Yorkie quite possibly has a liver shunt. I am doing all the research I can at the moment.. Here are her numbers from yesterday when I had the test done:

Bile Acids Preprandial/Random 707.0
Bile Acids Postprandial 503.6

My vet is to "vetty" if that makes sense and I cannot for the life of me figue out exactly what he is talking about but he is insistent on my getting Laylah to a surgeon ASAP and get her a CT Scan and a liver biopsy an ultra sound as quickly as I can..

I am beside myself as I do not have millions of dollars and as much as I want to save my little girls life, I just do not have the resources to do it.

I need to know if this test and those numbers are out of this world crazy???

Also she has been on phenobarbital for a year and a half for seizures, that I just weaned her off of as I found out that phenobarbital should only be given in low doses and for short periods of time. I did not now that or I would not have had her on it as long as I have..

I am working with a nutrionaslist who seems to feel if we get her diet right, that I may.. MAY...Be able to bypass surgery and hopefully get her numbers down some..

Ive looked this website over and over and cannot find if this is extremely high or not..

Laylah can go for a very long time without an "episode" is what I call them and she hasnt gone into one in 7 weeks now (yes I am counting)

Also, if it matters she is already spayed..

What she does is walk about the house for hours upon hours upon hours and will not take comfort from me at all and drools so bad her chin and chest are saturated in it.. She does not go into full bloom seizure activity.. She just walks around the house for hours..

I am pretty much beside myself right now feeling that Im failing her but currently she is a happy little 5 pound girl and if you didnt know any better, you'd never think anything was wrong with her..

I am with the nutrionalist's suggestion and guidance daily, feeding her Primal Turkey and Sardine and Rabbit too - we trade the meets now and then.. I also have her on goats milk and milk thistle too and I just started this diet about a month and a half ago..

I was shocked at the numbers... My vet doesnt tell me just how high is too high.. And he isnt a nutrionalist either.. So I dont know how much I trust him..

Also I would like to know if possible, the life expectancy WITHOUT surgery as I do not have the resources to do so..

My vet...WITHOUT an ultra sound or anything of the like is already saying this is a liver shunt..But my argument is that shes been on phenobarbital for so long, how do we know its not the phenobarbital that is causing her tests to come back so high??? She normally is a very playful little girl and if you didnt know any better, you might not think shes sick... She just goes into these episodes from time to time and so I had her bile acids tested and now this.. I am beside myself...

How high is too high?? How long will/can she live without surgery?? And what else can anyone suggest???

I would appreciate all suggestions and help and thank you so much already...

*~Meichelle & Laylah

Lovetodream88 · 07-25-2021, 11:49 AM

So you have a nutritionist telling your its ok to feed primal which is a raw pet food? That seems odd to me because most Vets in general let alone Vet nutritionists realize the dangers of raw food and will not recommend it. I don't think diet is going to help her with what you described and it sounds urgent to me. Whether your Vet is a nutritionist or not he knows about dog health. Have you attempted to apply for care credit a special credit card that most vets take or any other credit card? If you do not have the funds I would look into surrendering her to a rescue to to get the help she needs. At this time it does not sound like her quality of life is good and that she is suffering and does need medical intervention.

ladyjane · 07-25-2021, 01:26 PM

I don't know what too "vetty" is but you have an extremely sick pup who is suffering and needs veterinary care ASAP. I don't mean to come off harsh, but all this stuff about money and a nutritionist and all is way too much for my head. Layla needs a board certified specialist YESTERDAY. I am so sure her seizures were related to a liver shunt.

I hate stories like this.

Breaks my heart.

As Taylor said, she needs proper care now OR please, please consider surrendering her to a rescue that can help her. Her quality of life is bad now and will be worse if you continue this crazy diet you are feeding her. Medical management and diet "might' help BUT her life WILL be shortened.

As to how high....I can tell you her numbers are CRAZY HIGH and she is very sick and needs treatment NOW. Has your vet suggested lactulose? Any meds??

I will be back later to add to this but can't stay right now. I am going to post a link here for you to read in the meantime:

https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/wp-cont...D-Brochure.pdf

In the meantime, also look into Care Credit to see if you can get approved to get the right care for LaylaH

ladyjane · 07-25-2021, 01:31 PM

ALSO, your vet doesn't need an ultrasound to tell if your dog is in trouble here. Her labs spell it out very clearly. Phenobarb does not alter bile acids. I will bet this is a shunt and I am not a vet. She definitely has something wrong with her liver.

ladyjane · 07-25-2021, 02:25 PM

I sent you a message. I strongly urge you to call your vet in the morning and get Laylah on some meds until you can get her the help she needs....ALSO a more appropriate diet. Your vet can give you some prescription food specifically for a dog with liver disease.

I know you love your pup and don't wish to give her up; but, I am begging you to please find a way to pay for a specialist or give serious consideration to surrendering her to rescue. I can help with the rescue part....but would like to see you find a way to afford her.

ladyjane · 07-25-2021, 02:27 PM

OMG I just read previous posts. Laylah has been showing signs of a shunt since 2019

PLEASE take this seriously! She will not survive very long at this rate.

Lolasmom1211 · 07-25-2021, 05:36 PM

Hi Meichelle - I'm responding to your post because I've had a little one with a liver shunt and know how awful it can be. First of all, you shouldn't be feeding her raw food. She needs to be on a diet low in protein. Your vet can prescribe a prescription diet and some meds that will temporarily help her. The reason she most likely is "wandering" your house and having seizures is because her liver is not functioning properly. It can't filter out the toxins from her little body and she is slowly being poisoned. If left untreated long enough, the toxins/poisons will eventually kill her. Her drooling is most probably associated with the shunt, also. If you don't trust your vet or his advice, please find another one you do trust - and please do this sooner than later; your little girls life may depend on it. You also talk about working with a nutritionist. There are very few certified vet nutritionists in the United States and with a puppy exhibiting severe symptoms such as Layla's, I wouldn't trust a "nutritionist" unless they were also a veterinarian. Please remember most veterinarians have gone to school for many, many years and have gone through extensive training to give the advice they give. Most so called "nutritionists" I've run into take very short courses and have no idea how to handle a puppy with such complex problems. I know making the decision to have surgery is a big one and it comes with great expense - you obviously love Layla or you wouldn't be here asking questions. Sometimes loving her may also mean having to give her up if you can't provide the proper care of a medically compromised dog. I totally understand what a hard decision that is - for us it was a very expensive surgery and one that I had to seek financial help with, also. Please think about all of this, but make sure that you at lease change her food and get her on the lactulose tomorrow. It may take some time and patience to get the dosing right on the medication. Surgery is what saved my little girl's life - the only thing that would and could save her life. We are all here to help - we all love our Yorkies and want the best for them. Please come back, ask any questions and keep us updated on what you decide to do.

ladyjane · 07-26-2021, 09:51 AM

Looking for an update on Laylah.

Lovetodream88 · 07-28-2021, 10:41 AM

I keeping thinking about and praying this poor baby has gotten medical help by now.......any update?

Meichelle · 07-31-2021, 06:24 PM

So I am just now being able to work this website so I could even find my post to reply to any of you.. Lady Jane I did respond to your pm just now..

What I am feeding her is to detox her liver as best we can and get rid of toxins.. I am having her retested in 3 months, sooner if she shows symptoms...

What I am trying to explain is that she does not do this often.. It is only once in awhile with the walking about the house with the drooling.

When I say that my vet is to "vetty" what I mean is that he does not talk in laymens terms and I need things to be explained to me in a way that I understand them...

That goes for here too, and Im sorry if Im being forward but I do feel a little bit attacked.. I understand that you all are trying to help but telling me to give her away is not helping. You do not understand.. I have been very upset over this and do not have the resources for surgery and I can NOT get on care credit as I have just went thro a bankruptcy and Ive tried twice now to get on care credit and they have declined me twice..

It is not helping to be told that she is going to die and that she is this sick pup when I do not understand the process and thats all thats being said. No one is explaining the why or what the numbers should be... Ive searched and searched and cannot find what the numbers ought to be anywhere...

The nutrionalist I am using is a BOARD CERTIFIED nutrionalist... So saying she doenst know what she is talking about is not accurate.. She does know what she is talking about.. She is NOT saying that by diet alone that this will be a miracle cure. what she is saying is to safely try to get Laylah's numbers down - never once did she say that by diet alone would this cure Laylah.. As far as the "raw" diet... No I did not say I am giving her raw meat or raw chicken or raw vegetables..

Besides a good diet, I am giving her goats milk, I am giving her Denamarin that the vet gave to me and I do have a script for Kempra that I wanted to hold off on to see how she does without poisoning her liver with even more medicines..

Additionally my vet has said that he himself has JUST came out of vet school and that he's not had a chance yet to work with a dog with a liver shunt IF that is in fact what it is... Im not 100% on board with this without knowing what the numbers OUGHT to be with a healthy Yorkie.. I am currently looking for another vet asap with a bit more knowledge that doesnt sound like he is trying to be a world class brain surgeon..

Lastly, my daughter IS a Physicians Assistant and she has explained how the process works with the human body and has dumbed down her speech so that I can partially understand what the heck is going on here.. Laylah does not have the classic symptoms of a liver shunt. Her numbers are high, yes, but I do not know what the numbers should be.. Ive read a couple posts here on other ppls Yorkies that have just as high as she does and their dogs are thriving by God's grace..

So please, and I beg you ... DO NOT make me feel worse than what I already do and reading some of these posts, while I know you are trying to be helpful, does not sound very helpful... And I say that while writing to you all thro tears...

So with that said.. If no one has anything kind to say, or helpful, or useful.. Then please PLEASE I beg you NOT to post something!!

I certainly do not need snide comments, or hurtful comments... What I need is help understanding so I CAN get her the right help...

Thank you very much and sorry if I upset any of you by my own comments.. As I said I am writing to you all thro tears..

Laylah has been absolutely fine near a month and half without any episodes whatsoever.. I could see this type of talk to me if she was doing this every day.. She isnt acting this way every day..

It is very hard to believe that she is as sick as you say when she is a very happy, playful and loving little girl..

ladyjane · 08-01-2021, 05:05 AM

Meichelle, I am sorry you are upset by my posts. I did get your PM and I have responded.

I don't have time right now to respond to each of your points above, but I promise I will later on.

I get what you said about your vet...........did you read that link I posted above? It is written in layman terms. Here it is again:
https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/wp-cont...D-Brochure.pdf

When you get a chance, read the following link about my Teddy Bear and his liver shunt. It may answer some of your questions.

https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/si...ver-shunt.html

As to your nutritionist....is she a Board Certified VET nutritionist?

As I said, I will get back with this later.....but, in the meantime, I gave you my contact info.

ladyjane · 08-01-2021, 05:08 AM

Oh, and let me add this: I did not want to upset you or try to make you feel badly. I just wanted you to realize that this is serious.

Meichelle · 08-01-2021, 05:14 AM

Yes, I already read this last night but thank you for giving it to me again.. Ive already read the PDF and interestingly enough, I got the same exact from my nutrionalist too.. Exact same one.. So I already had that down loaded and read before you brought it up, but thanks again on that too.. Ive replied to your PM and I'll watch for you when you have time <3

ladyjane · 08-01-2021, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meichelle

So I am just now being able to work this website so I could even find my post to reply to any of you.. Lady Jane I did respond to your pm just now..

If you signed up for email notifications, there is a link in each email that you can click on that will take you directly to that thread. It does take time getting used to the forum.

What I am feeding her is to detox her liver as best we can and get rid of toxins.. I am having her retested in 3 months, sooner if she shows symptoms...

If you don't believe the numbers are high, then why detox her liver? Additionally, she needs MORE than diet to do this. I know you don't believe in RX diets, but they are very helpful. I don't know who this nutritionist is, but I have a strong feeling he/she is not adequately credentialed to be advising this diet for your pup. I have two pups who were sent home to die a year and a half ago due to renal failure. The ONLY thing we have done is a RX diet and they are still with me and doing well. I have used RX diets over the years for MANY and they DO work.

What I am trying to explain is that she does not do this often.. It is only once in awhile with the walking about the house with the drooling.

That is VERY common. They do not ALL have symptoms....all very different. I shared my experience with Teddy Bear to explain that. You said you have a RX for Keppra. Personally, I would be giving it to my pup to try and prevent seizures which it sounds like Laylah may be having. Keppra is commonly given to dogs with liver shunts because it has not been shown to harm the liver.

When I say that my vet is to "vetty" what I mean is that he does not talk in laymens terms and I need things to be explained to me in a way that I understand them...

This can happen and as Lolasmom said, then find another vet you feel more comfortable with.

That goes for here too, and Im sorry if Im being forward but I do feel a little bit attacked.. I understand that you all are trying to help but telling me to give her away is not helping. You do not understand.. I have been very upset over this and do not have the resources for surgery and I can NOT get on care credit as I have just went thro a bankruptcy and Ive tried twice now to get on care credit and they have declined me twice..

No one told you to give her away. Everyone here loves their pups. Advising a person to surrender their dog if they cannot provide the needed vet care is just that......ADVICE. It is something to think about. I just took in a little yorkie yesterday from a woman who is hurting, but she did it because she cannot provide the vet care needed and it also was not a good fit in her home. It is all about the dogs at the end of the day. I pray I never am in a position to have to make a decision to let one of mine go.

It is not helping to be told that she is going to die and that she is this sick pup when I do not understand the process and thats all thats being said. No one is explaining the why or what the numbers should be... Ive searched and searched and cannot find what the numbers ought to be anywhere...

The numbers you posted are EXTREMELY high. You say you cannot find what they should be but they are on the link I provided on PAGE 5. The vet who wrote that is a leading researcher in liver disease in dogs, especially yorkies. I tried to copy/paste, but was unsuccessful but here is the link again. The one above was a broken link. The fact is, with numbers like she has I don't see any way she will have a long life. I am NOT a vet....just a person who has been through it all with yorkies.

https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/wp-cont...D-Brochure.pdf

The nutrionalist I am using is a BOARD CERTIFIED nutrionalist... So saying she doenst know what she is talking about is not accurate.. She does know what she is talking about.. She is NOT saying that by diet alone that this will be a miracle cure. what she is saying is to safely try to get Laylah's numbers down - never once did she say that by diet alone would this cure Laylah.. As far as the "raw" diet... No I did not say I am giving her raw meat or raw chicken or raw vegetables..

You said Primal which I believe is freeze dried? I don't know....all I DO know is that I don't believe it is an appropriate diet for a dog with liver disease. I don't know WHO your nutritionist is, but this is what you said SHE advised you "I am working with a nutrionaslist who seems to feel if we get her diet right, that I may.. MAY...Be able to bypass surgery and hopefully get her numbers down some.."
There is no way I believe she is qualified if she truly said this. You say she is board certified but I seriously doubt she is a Vet Nutritionist. If you want food advice, try this site paying particular attention to she section "Ask the Nutritionist". All Board Certified VET Nutritionists and they will answer you.

Besides a good diet, I am giving her goats milk, I am giving her Denamarin that the vet gave to me and I do have a script for Kempra that I wanted to hold off on to see how she does without poisoning her liver with even more medicines..

Keppra will not "poison her liver" to my knowledge. I wrote about this above. I have never given any goats milk to my pups. I don't know where you are getting your nutrition advice, but suffice it to say it is not in line with what I believe or with my experiences. There are a LOT of people on the internet who claim to be experts and they are far from it. I can only say be careful.

Additionally my vet has said that he himself has JUST came out of vet school and that he's not had a chance yet to work with a dog with a liver shunt IF that is in fact what it is... Im not 100% on board with this without knowing what the numbers OUGHT to be with a healthy Yorkie.. I am currently looking for another vet asap with a bit more knowledge that doesnt sound like he is trying to be a world class brain surgeon..

If he just came out of vet school, I am sure he is very knowledgeable on the latest in veterinary medicine. I hope you are successful in finding one you can relate to as that is important!

Lastly, my daughter IS a Physicians Assistant and she has explained how the process works with the human body and has dumbed down her speech so that I can partially understand what the heck is going on here.. Laylah does not have the classic symptoms of a liver shunt. Her numbers are high, yes, but I do not know what the numbers should be.. Ive read a couple posts here on other ppls Yorkies that have just as high as she does and their dogs are thriving by God's grace..

You can fish all day on this forum and others to find what you want to hear. Just because it is posted online does not make it gospel. If Laylahs numbers are what you posted, I stand by this: she is a sick dog. How often she has symptoms doesn't matter. AGAIN, the link I provided gives the numbers....hers are WAY above where the normal healthy dog is.

So please, and I beg you ... DO NOT make me feel worse than what I already do and reading some of these posts, while I know you are trying to be helpful, does not sound very helpful... And I say that while writing to you all thro tears...

You posted for HELP. It was in capital letters. We are trying to help but honestly I don't think you really want to hear what we are saying. I am sorry I cannot agree with you or say your dog is ok. I hate it for her so much because she probably feels awful (although she has been sick for a long time so maybe doesn't know what good feels like) and she has no choice in this matter.

So with that said.. If no one has anything kind to say, or helpful, or useful.. Then please PLEASE I beg you NOT to post something!!

Again, this is not being mean. We have ALL posted helpful things but you don't seem to want to listen. I cannot tell you what you want to hear. I am sorry. If you don't like the answers here you can always click on the exclamation point in the lower left corner and ask for the thread to be closed.

I certainly do not need snide comments, or hurtful comments... What I need is help understanding so I CAN get her the right help...

We DO understand. I feel awful for both of you. I am simply telling you what I believe. I pray you will find a vet who can help you.

Thank you very much and sorry if I upset any of you by my own comments.. As I said I am writing to you all thro tears..

Laylah has been absolutely fine near a month and half without any episodes whatsoever.. I could see this type of talk to me if she was doing this every day.. She isnt acting this way every day..

Again, that does not matter. Her numbers speak volumes. PLEASE go back to the link with attention to PAGE 5. And PLEASE keep trying to find a vet you can relate to.

It is very hard to believe that she is as sick as you say when she is a very happy, playful and loving little girl..

My Teddy Bear was fine, UNTIL HE WASN'T. Thankfully I was able to save his life that day..

I have put my responses in red above. My prayer is that you will find help for Laylah.

Lolasmom1211 · 08-01-2021, 07:46 AM

I am so sorry you are feeling attacked - please know that certainly was not my intention. I was only trying to pass on to you what I had learned from going through this experience myself. I also don't understand all the numbers and exactly how all of this works. My daughter, oddly enough, is a physician and has had to try to explain a lot of this to me also. The easiest way for her to tell me is to outline it the way I tried to do for you - I want her to tell me exactly what I need to do. I know I'll never understand all of the numbers so I just want to know how best to help my pups. I'm sorry I misunderstood that you were feeding raw - I thought it was something I read. When I had my Lola's surgery I specifically asked about raw and they told me absolutely not - so I wanted to pass that on. My apologies I got that confused. I also know the importance of having a vet you can fully trust when you have a little pup with problems. There were so many days when I was so terribly upset about Lola and needed to know that she was being taken care of by the best people possible. I promise I was not trying to make you feel worse - I was only trying to answer some of your questions the best possible way I knew how. I know about the expense and the helplessness you will feel at times. I only mentioned surrendering Laylah as an option because you mentioned not having the resources for surgery if that was her best option. Her numbers are very high - normal bile acids are Pre >13 and Post >25. You said Laylah's were Pre 707 & Post 503. I think most specialists would agree these numbers will not be able to be controlled with diet. I will also tell you my Lola showed no neurological symptoms at all - only poor hair growth and a bad reaction to vaccines. Each little one has different symptoms. Believe me, I understand what you mean when you say you were writing through tears - I had many, many nights of tears with Lola - the helplessness was almost too much at times. These little ones pull at our hearts. I really do wish you the best of luck with Laylah in whatever path you decide to take with her - please remember we're all here to help if you need us.

07-24-2021, 07:52 PM	#1
Meichelle Yorkie Talker Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Noneofyourbusiness Posts: 13	High Bile Acid Test, HELP!! Liver shunt?? So for starters, Im sorry if Im posting in the wrong area.. Please forgive if I am.. I just found out thro a bile acid test that my little Laylah, a 3yr old Yorkie quite possibly has a liver shunt. I am doing all the research I can at the moment.. Here are her numbers from yesterday when I had the test done: Bile Acids Preprandial/Random 707.0 Bile Acids Postprandial 503.6 My vet is to "vetty" if that makes sense and I cannot for the life of me figue out exactly what he is talking about but he is insistent on my getting Laylah to a surgeon ASAP and get her a CT Scan and a liver biopsy an ultra sound as quickly as I can.. I am beside myself as I do not have millions of dollars and as much as I want to save my little girls life, I just do not have the resources to do it. I need to know if this test and those numbers are out of this world crazy??? Also she has been on phenobarbital for a year and a half for seizures, that I just weaned her off of as I found out that phenobarbital should only be given in low doses and for short periods of time. I did not now that or I would not have had her on it as long as I have.. I am working with a nutrionaslist who seems to feel if we get her diet right, that I may.. MAY...Be able to bypass surgery and hopefully get her numbers down some.. Ive looked this website over and over and cannot find if this is extremely high or not.. Laylah can go for a very long time without an "episode" is what I call them and she hasnt gone into one in 7 weeks now (yes I am counting) Also, if it matters she is already spayed.. What she does is walk about the house for hours upon hours upon hours and will not take comfort from me at all and drools so bad her chin and chest are saturated in it.. She does not go into full bloom seizure activity.. She just walks around the house for hours.. I am pretty much beside myself right now feeling that Im failing her but currently she is a happy little 5 pound girl and if you didnt know any better, you'd never think anything was wrong with her.. I am with the nutrionalist's suggestion and guidance daily, feeding her Primal Turkey and Sardine and Rabbit too - we trade the meets now and then.. I also have her on goats milk and milk thistle too and I just started this diet about a month and a half ago.. I was shocked at the numbers... My vet doesnt tell me just how high is too high.. And he isnt a nutrionalist either.. So I dont know how much I trust him.. Also I would like to know if possible, the life expectancy WITHOUT surgery as I do not have the resources to do so.. My vet...WITHOUT an ultra sound or anything of the like is already saying this is a liver shunt..But my argument is that shes been on phenobarbital for so long, how do we know its not the phenobarbital that is causing her tests to come back so high??? She normally is a very playful little girl and if you didnt know any better, you might not think shes sick... She just goes into these episodes from time to time and so I had her bile acids tested and now this.. I am beside myself... How high is too high?? How long will/can she live without surgery?? And what else can anyone suggest??? I would appreciate all suggestions and help and thank you so much already... *~Meichelle & Laylah

07-25-2021, 11:49 AM	#2
Lovetodream88 Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md Posts: 23,247	So you have a nutritionist telling your its ok to feed primal which is a raw pet food? That seems odd to me because most Vets in general let alone Vet nutritionists realize the dangers of raw food and will not recommend it. I don't think diet is going to help her with what you described and it sounds urgent to me. Whether your Vet is a nutritionist or not he knows about dog health. Have you attempted to apply for care credit a special credit card that most vets take or any other credit card? If you do not have the funds I would look into surrendering her to a rescue to to get the help she needs. At this time it does not sound like her quality of life is good and that she is suffering and does need medical intervention. __________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart!

07-25-2021, 01:26 PM	#3
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,451	I don't know what too "vetty" is but you have an extremely sick pup who is suffering and needs veterinary care ASAP. I don't mean to come off harsh, but all this stuff about money and a nutritionist and all is way too much for my head. Layla needs a board certified specialist YESTERDAY. I am so sure her seizures were related to a liver shunt. I hate stories like this. Breaks my heart. As Taylor said, she needs proper care now OR please, please consider surrendering her to a rescue that can help her. Her quality of life is bad now and will be worse if you continue this crazy diet you are feeding her. Medical management and diet "might' help BUT her life WILL be shortened. As to how high....I can tell you her numbers are CRAZY HIGH and she is very sick and needs treatment NOW. Has your vet suggested lactulose? Any meds?? I will be back later to add to this but can't stay right now. I am going to post a link here for you to read in the meantime: https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/wp-cont...D-Brochure.pdf In the meantime, also look into Care Credit to see if you can get approved to get the right care for LaylaH __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

07-25-2021, 01:31 PM	#4
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,451	ALSO, your vet doesn't need an ultrasound to tell if your dog is in trouble here. Her labs spell it out very clearly. Phenobarb does not alter bile acids. I will bet this is a shunt and I am not a vet. She definitely has something wrong with her liver. __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

07-25-2021, 02:25 PM	#5
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,451	I sent you a message. I strongly urge you to call your vet in the morning and get Laylah on some meds until you can get her the help she needs....ALSO a more appropriate diet. Your vet can give you some prescription food specifically for a dog with liver disease. I know you love your pup and don't wish to give her up; but, I am begging you to please find a way to pay for a specialist or give serious consideration to surrendering her to rescue. I can help with the rescue part....but would like to see you find a way to afford her. __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

07-25-2021, 02:27 PM	#6
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,451	OMG I just read previous posts. Laylah has been showing signs of a shunt since 2019 PLEASE take this seriously! She will not survive very long at this rate. __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

07-25-2021, 05:36 PM	#7
Lolasmom1211 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 664	Hi Meichelle - I'm responding to your post because I've had a little one with a liver shunt and know how awful it can be. First of all, you shouldn't be feeding her raw food. She needs to be on a diet low in protein. Your vet can prescribe a prescription diet and some meds that will temporarily help her. The reason she most likely is "wandering" your house and having seizures is because her liver is not functioning properly. It can't filter out the toxins from her little body and she is slowly being poisoned. If left untreated long enough, the toxins/poisons will eventually kill her. Her drooling is most probably associated with the shunt, also. If you don't trust your vet or his advice, please find another one you do trust - and please do this sooner than later; your little girls life may depend on it. You also talk about working with a nutritionist. There are very few certified vet nutritionists in the United States and with a puppy exhibiting severe symptoms such as Layla's, I wouldn't trust a "nutritionist" unless they were also a veterinarian. Please remember most veterinarians have gone to school for many, many years and have gone through extensive training to give the advice they give. Most so called "nutritionists" I've run into take very short courses and have no idea how to handle a puppy with such complex problems. I know making the decision to have surgery is a big one and it comes with great expense - you obviously love Layla or you wouldn't be here asking questions. Sometimes loving her may also mean having to give her up if you can't provide the proper care of a medically compromised dog. I totally understand what a hard decision that is - for us it was a very expensive surgery and one that I had to seek financial help with, also. Please think about all of this, but make sure that you at lease change her food and get her on the lactulose tomorrow. It may take some time and patience to get the dosing right on the medication. Surgery is what saved my little girl's life - the only thing that would and could save her life. We are all here to help - we all love our Yorkies and want the best for them. Please come back, ask any questions and keep us updated on what you decide to do.

07-26-2021, 09:51 AM	#8
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,451	Looking for an update on Laylah. __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

07-28-2021, 10:41 AM	#9
Lovetodream88 Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md Posts: 23,247	I keeping thinking about and praying this poor baby has gotten medical help by now.......any update? __________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart!

07-31-2021, 06:24 PM	#10
Meichelle Yorkie Talker Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Noneofyourbusiness Posts: 13	So I am just now being able to work this website so I could even find my post to reply to any of you.. Lady Jane I did respond to your pm just now.. What I am feeding her is to detox her liver as best we can and get rid of toxins.. I am having her retested in 3 months, sooner if she shows symptoms... What I am trying to explain is that she does not do this often.. It is only once in awhile with the walking about the house with the drooling. When I say that my vet is to "vetty" what I mean is that he does not talk in laymens terms and I need things to be explained to me in a way that I understand them... That goes for here too, and Im sorry if Im being forward but I do feel a little bit attacked.. I understand that you all are trying to help but telling me to give her away is not helping. You do not understand.. I have been very upset over this and do not have the resources for surgery and I can NOT get on care credit as I have just went thro a bankruptcy and Ive tried twice now to get on care credit and they have declined me twice.. It is not helping to be told that she is going to die and that she is this sick pup when I do not understand the process and thats all thats being said. No one is explaining the why or what the numbers should be... Ive searched and searched and cannot find what the numbers ought to be anywhere... The nutrionalist I am using is a BOARD CERTIFIED nutrionalist... So saying she doenst know what she is talking about is not accurate.. She does know what she is talking about.. She is NOT saying that by diet alone that this will be a miracle cure. what she is saying is to safely try to get Laylah's numbers down - never once did she say that by diet alone would this cure Laylah.. As far as the "raw" diet... No I did not say I am giving her raw meat or raw chicken or raw vegetables.. Besides a good diet, I am giving her goats milk, I am giving her Denamarin that the vet gave to me and I do have a script for Kempra that I wanted to hold off on to see how she does without poisoning her liver with even more medicines.. Additionally my vet has said that he himself has JUST came out of vet school and that he's not had a chance yet to work with a dog with a liver shunt IF that is in fact what it is... Im not 100% on board with this without knowing what the numbers OUGHT to be with a healthy Yorkie.. I am currently looking for another vet asap with a bit more knowledge that doesnt sound like he is trying to be a world class brain surgeon.. Lastly, my daughter IS a Physicians Assistant and she has explained how the process works with the human body and has dumbed down her speech so that I can partially understand what the heck is going on here.. Laylah does not have the classic symptoms of a liver shunt. Her numbers are high, yes, but I do not know what the numbers should be.. Ive read a couple posts here on other ppls Yorkies that have just as high as she does and their dogs are thriving by God's grace.. So please, and I beg you ... DO NOT make me feel worse than what I already do and reading some of these posts, while I know you are trying to be helpful, does not sound very helpful... And I say that while writing to you all thro tears... So with that said.. If no one has anything kind to say, or helpful, or useful.. Then please PLEASE I beg you NOT to post something!! I certainly do not need snide comments, or hurtful comments... What I need is help understanding so I CAN get her the right help... Thank you very much and sorry if I upset any of you by my own comments.. As I said I am writing to you all thro tears.. Laylah has been absolutely fine near a month and half without any episodes whatsoever.. I could see this type of talk to me if she was doing this every day.. She isnt acting this way every day.. It is very hard to believe that she is as sick as you say when she is a very happy, playful and loving little girl..

08-01-2021, 05:05 AM	#11
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,451	Meichelle, I am sorry you are upset by my posts. I did get your PM and I have responded. I don't have time right now to respond to each of your points above, but I promise I will later on. I get what you said about your vet...........did you read that link I posted above? It is written in layman terms. Here it is again: https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/wp-cont...D-Brochure.pdf When you get a chance, read the following link about my Teddy Bear and his liver shunt. It may answer some of your questions. https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/si...ver-shunt.html As to your nutritionist....is she a Board Certified VET nutritionist? As I said, I will get back with this later.....but, in the meantime, I gave you my contact info. __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

08-01-2021, 05:08 AM	#12
ladyjane Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 27,451	Oh, and let me add this: I did not want to upset you or try to make you feel badly. I just wanted you to realize that this is serious. __________________ CLOUD NINE BEDS--YORKIE HAVEN RESCUE MY ETSY SHOP

08-01-2021, 05:14 AM	#13
Meichelle Yorkie Talker Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Noneofyourbusiness Posts: 13	Yes, I already read this last night but thank you for giving it to me again.. Ive already read the PDF and interestingly enough, I got the same exact from my nutrionalist too.. Exact same one.. So I already had that down loaded and read before you brought it up, but thanks again on that too.. Ive replied to your PM and I'll watch for you when you have time <3

08-01-2021, 07:46 AM	#15
Lolasmom1211 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 664	I am so sorry you are feeling attacked - please know that certainly was not my intention. I was only trying to pass on to you what I had learned from going through this experience myself. I also don't understand all the numbers and exactly how all of this works. My daughter, oddly enough, is a physician and has had to try to explain a lot of this to me also. The easiest way for her to tell me is to outline it the way I tried to do for you - I want her to tell me exactly what I need to do. I know I'll never understand all of the numbers so I just want to know how best to help my pups. I'm sorry I misunderstood that you were feeding raw - I thought it was something I read. When I had my Lola's surgery I specifically asked about raw and they told me absolutely not - so I wanted to pass that on. My apologies I got that confused. I also know the importance of having a vet you can fully trust when you have a little pup with problems. There were so many days when I was so terribly upset about Lola and needed to know that she was being taken care of by the best people possible. I promise I was not trying to make you feel worse - I was only trying to answer some of your questions the best possible way I knew how. I know about the expense and the helplessness you will feel at times. I only mentioned surrendering Laylah as an option because you mentioned not having the resources for surgery if that was her best option. Her numbers are very high - normal bile acids are Pre >13 and Post >25. You said Laylah's were Pre 707 & Post 503. I think most specialists would agree these numbers will not be able to be controlled with diet. I will also tell you my Lola showed no neurological symptoms at all - only poor hair growth and a bad reaction to vaccines. Each little one has different symptoms. Believe me, I understand what you mean when you say you were writing through tears - I had many, many nights of tears with Lola - the helplessness was almost too much at times. These little ones pull at our hearts. I really do wish you the best of luck with Laylah in whatever path you decide to take with her - please remember we're all here to help if you need us.