Please Help- Seizure and/or Liver disease! - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

winkerbean · 10-30-2012, 10:05 PM

Sorry to hear about your dog. I had a similar problem with my Bella. She is only 5 months old. 4 months when it happened. She had a first time seizure lasted only a minute or so and then with in 48 hrs had a total of 5 small lasting 30 sec to 1 min. All bile acid test were negative or the enzyme was within the normal limits. All her labs were normal. I was scared because the internal medicine vet stated the same things. US after to see if in fact they could see lack of or re-routed blood flow from the liver. Because everything was negative they went the other route of either a brain abnormality, inflammation, or viral. Because she is so young they didn't want to label her as being an idiopathic epileptic, but they did. She is a "toy" breed weighting only 3.5lbs now and the thought of anesthesia at that low weight could be worse than finding a real diagnosis. So no CT, MRI. For US they just do a moderate sedation not general sedation. Mainly IV with medications to help them relax. If your US tech is good they can do it quick. I have been giving her Phenobarbital for any re-current seizures but she hasn't had any in a month now. Your vet should at least offer a little valium to make the next seizures not as severe. I'm hoping this was a fluke and will never happen again. She did get her immunizations 3 days prior and she got a full adult dose of rabies at the same time. But the vet will not agree nor deny that it could be the reason. In fact he even stated that this case is rare for Bella and has no answer, accept for what he does know. Idiopathic epilepsy at a young age. I feel your pain. Good luck.

NicoleMarie · 11-01-2012, 07:58 AM

Today is the big day! We meet with the internal medicine specialist and get Cruz's ultrasound. Hopefully we get answers and leave with a plan, no more waiting and guessing! Thanks everyone!

I think he's on to me that we're going somewhere not so fun!

capt_noonie · 11-01-2012, 08:12 AM

Hope you get some answers.

concretegurl · 11-01-2012, 11:04 AM

Rooting for Cruz today.

GeorgiesMomma · 11-01-2012, 11:07 AM

Rooting for Cruz too! My thoughts and prayers are with you all!

NicoleMarie · 11-01-2012, 02:08 PM

i got back from the internal medicine specialist a couple hours ago and I am not really sure how to take how it went. Honestly, I couldn't wait to get home and share my experience/ results with everyone on here to see anyone could relate more.

So Cruz had his ultrasound today and i didn't really find the answers I was hoping for. They said they didn't see any external liver shunts but he didn't suspect one seeing that Cruz did not have any symptoms other then seizures. So before I could even smile, he adds "BUT that doesn't mean their not hidden". Then he tells me that Cruz's liver is small which could suspect a shunt or Microvascular Dysplasia. He said the only way to be 100% would be a liver biopsy. He said there is another type of ultrasound that can be done to detect MVD but sometimes it doesn't provide enough to examine. If my head wasn't spinning enough, he goes to say or Cruz could have epilepsy and mvd or just epilepsy.

He recommended that we sort of do a little trial for a month and see how Cruz does on a special diet and medicine. I told him I was worried about him being on medicine and he assured me there were no side effects because the Medicine for MVD doesn't leave the GI tract and just helps break everything down.

So I guess Cruz is going to do that for a month and then we check his bile acids again to see if they have gone down. Assuming Cruz doesn't have another seizure, then we have then found the problem. If he does, he could still have MVD and Epilepsy.

I asked him if he thought it was weird that if Cruz did have MVD, his only symptom is seizures. His answer "no". I said is there a chance Cruz doesn't even have MVD and just has epilepsy? He said. "That could be possible, their have been studies that suggest normal Maltese's have high bile acids". (Remember Cruz is a Morkie). Now I'm just speechless. I don't know what to do. I feel like the only conclusion we got out of today was that Cruz has a small liver.

The vet did write up a prescription for Neomycin and Lactulose along with special diet ex:Hills prescription id. I am supposed to call my regular vet tomorrow to get more info.

Am I doing the right thing? Should I do this trial for 2 months or just pay for the $3000-4000 liver biopsy and know for sure?? If it was just food as trial I wouldn't mind but medicine always worries me.

Sorry if I babbled. I guess I was hoping for different results. My poor little guy can sense i am upset and I think I am making him worried now!

Juliealfies mum · 11-01-2012, 02:10 PM

Wishing you good luck today . My Alfie has epilepsy and is on phenobarbitone for the seizures but this has not eliminated them . I hope you get some answers it is so frustrating until you get the right diagnosisim must have been writing when you posted your results.
I don't know what to tell you to do but your regular vet might help you with your decision.

concretegurl · 11-01-2012, 02:37 PM

I have no good advice.

Its all personal choice in a way.

I spent a ton of money with Elvis' test...in the end he takes pheno exactly what our first vet wanted to do off the bat before I spent several many thousands.

All I can say is if you can afford it I would, but if its a pointless test ask the vet how can we stream line this to get an end all answer.

GeorgiesMomma · 11-01-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concretegurl

I have no good advice.

Its all personal choice in a way.

I spent a ton of money with Elvis' test...in the end he takes pheno exactly what our first vet wanted to do off the bat before I spent several many thousands.

All I can say is if you can afford it I would, but if its a pointless test ask the vet how can we stream line this to get an end all answer.

I agree if you can afford it then I would do the liver biopsy as well. I am sorry you feel you still have questions and not enough answers. I don't have experience with liver issues but I feel like from reading your post the biopsy would bring a lot more clarity. It's definitely a personal choice and you have to do what works for you and sweet Cruz. Keep us posted!

NicoleMarie · 11-01-2012, 03:44 PM

I feel the same way about the biopsy (money well spent in my eyes) but then I just keep thinking about how when I asked him if it was possible that Cruz didn't have MVD but just Epilepsy. And he said yes. I just wish their were more test to be done before the biopsy. The biopsy guided ultrasound he talked about (cant remember name) he said couldn't guarantee they would get enough to be sure. So I won't even bother with that. Looks like the liver biopsy is the only way. However he would have to go under anesthesia and if he has liver problems that concerns me too.

concretegurl · 11-01-2012, 09:06 PM

I personally would opt for a single test that is more relevent than muktiples even if more invasive-less stress on him.

winkerbean · 11-01-2012, 09:48 PM

Nicole-marie I can understand your feelings. I was set up for some pretty hard decisions too. But the things I had to ask were are the treatment options the same whether they find out if your dog has a problem or not? If the treatment is the same of diet,meds,and waiting then why put your dog through it? My internal med vet explained that if the treatment were the same then why go through it all, to find an answer? But then at what cost? I told him that the money wasn't the issue but the quality of life for my dog. Then he asked what is your view of "quality of life". "I put my dog through all these test and stress to find nothing or to find some diagnosis and the treatment is what we are doing now". He even went as far to say to postpone the test that were invasive, CT, MRI with anesthesia unless my dog had more seizures with the treatment option given, which are medications. Are the bile acid tests just a rich diet? If you just changed a few things like diet and gave him medications and just waited to see how things go, would it be enough? I was left with this option also. Its a hard one. My dog is much younger than yours but it is still hard to absorb. I went for the option of not doing the tests and anesthesia and just spoiling her with play and treats and just medication. I hope that the seizures won't return. But if they do then I will cross that road but at least I have options. I cant tell you what you should do, but hopefully to see it with different eyes.

NicoleMarie · 11-02-2012, 12:41 PM

Thanks everyone! I spent most of the night tossing and turning and trying to come up with the best plan for Cruz. It is just very hard for me to say yes do the liver biopsy when I don't look see a sick dog. He's had 2 seizures in 5 months -no other symptoms! One thing that stuck out in my mind and that I forgot to mention was how the specialist mentioned there were studies indicating that healthy Maltese's have higher bile acids concentrations. This is where he kept mentioning how he could just have epilepsy! (BAT!s were 29/58).

Winkerbean~ everything you said made perfect sense! The treatment plan would be exactly the same if he was officially diagnosed. I kept saying this to my husband last night. I think that's when I initially made up my mind. I am going to change his diet and retest the bile acids in a month or two. If we see good results then I know we are on the right track. If we don't, then maybe address the medicine and see if that makes a difference. (Considering Cruz doesn't develop new symptoms)

Thanks everyone for all the input and helping me clear my head! Even just reading other stories has provided me with so much information on every topic. In fact I just ordered a buddy belt for Cruz!

11-01-2012, 08:12 AM	#18
capt_noonie www.yorkierescue.com Donating Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Las Vegas & Orange County Posts: 17,408	Hope you get some answers. __________________ The T.U.B. Pack! Toto, Uni, & Bindi RIP Lord Scrappington Montgomery McLimpybottom aka El Lenguo the Handicapped Ninja 10-12-12

11-01-2012, 11:04 AM	#19
concretegurl Between♥Suspensions Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Vaissades Posts: 7,979	Rooting for Cruz today. __________________ Shan & 8 kids now!

11-01-2012, 11:07 AM	#20
GeorgiesMomma I love TBCG! Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MD Posts: 7,227	Rooting for Cruz too! My thoughts and prayers are with you all! __________________ Morgan Mommy toGeorgie boy & Isaiah RIP sweet Coco 10/12/99-8/1/12 Read About Georgie's Experience with Atlantoaxial Instability (AAI) Here!

11-01-2012, 02:10 PM	#22
Juliealfies mum YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: scotland Posts: 2,224	Wishing you good luck today . My Alfie has epilepsy and is on phenobarbitone for the seizures but this has not eliminated them . I hope you get some answers it is so frustrating until you get the right diagnosisim must have been writing when you posted your results. I don't know what to tell you to do but your regular vet might help you with your decision. __________________ From Julie Alfie & Lottie Last edited by Juliealfies mum; 11-01-2012 at 02:13 PM.

11-01-2012, 02:37 PM	#23
concretegurl Between♥Suspensions Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Vaissades Posts: 7,979	I have no good advice. Its all personal choice in a way. I spent a ton of money with Elvis' test...in the end he takes pheno exactly what our first vet wanted to do off the bat before I spent several many thousands. All I can say is if you can afford it I would, but if its a pointless test ask the vet how can we stream line this to get an end all answer. __________________ Shan & 8 kids now!

10-30-2012, 10:05 PM	#16
winkerbean YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: modesto,ca USA Posts: 2	Sorry to hear about your dog. I had a similar problem with my Bella. She is only 5 months old. 4 months when it happened. She had a first time seizure lasted only a minute or so and then with in 48 hrs had a total of 5 small lasting 30 sec to 1 min. All bile acid test were negative or the enzyme was within the normal limits. All her labs were normal. I was scared because the internal medicine vet stated the same things. US after to see if in fact they could see lack of or re-routed blood flow from the liver. Because everything was negative they went the other route of either a brain abnormality, inflammation, or viral. Because she is so young they didn't want to label her as being an idiopathic epileptic, but they did. She is a "toy" breed weighting only 3.5lbs now and the thought of anesthesia at that low weight could be worse than finding a real diagnosis. So no CT, MRI. For US they just do a moderate sedation not general sedation. Mainly IV with medications to help them relax. If your US tech is good they can do it quick. I have been giving her Phenobarbital for any re-current seizures but she hasn't had any in a month now. Your vet should at least offer a little valium to make the next seizures not as severe. I'm hoping this was a fluke and will never happen again. She did get her immunizations 3 days prior and she got a full adult dose of rabies at the same time. But the vet will not agree nor deny that it could be the reason. In fact he even stated that this case is rare for Bella and has no answer, accept for what he does know. Idiopathic epilepsy at a young age. I feel your pain. Good luck.

11-01-2012, 02:08 PM	#21
NicoleMarie Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: New York Posts: 52	i got back from the internal medicine specialist a couple hours ago and I am not really sure how to take how it went. Honestly, I couldn't wait to get home and share my experience/ results with everyone on here to see anyone could relate more. So Cruz had his ultrasound today and i didn't really find the answers I was hoping for. They said they didn't see any external liver shunts but he didn't suspect one seeing that Cruz did not have any symptoms other then seizures. So before I could even smile, he adds "BUT that doesn't mean their not hidden". Then he tells me that Cruz's liver is small which could suspect a shunt or Microvascular Dysplasia. He said the only way to be 100% would be a liver biopsy. He said there is another type of ultrasound that can be done to detect MVD but sometimes it doesn't provide enough to examine. If my head wasn't spinning enough, he goes to say or Cruz could have epilepsy and mvd or just epilepsy. He recommended that we sort of do a little trial for a month and see how Cruz does on a special diet and medicine. I told him I was worried about him being on medicine and he assured me there were no side effects because the Medicine for MVD doesn't leave the GI tract and just helps break everything down. So I guess Cruz is going to do that for a month and then we check his bile acids again to see if they have gone down. Assuming Cruz doesn't have another seizure, then we have then found the problem. If he does, he could still have MVD and Epilepsy. I asked him if he thought it was weird that if Cruz did have MVD, his only symptom is seizures. His answer "no". I said is there a chance Cruz doesn't even have MVD and just has epilepsy? He said. "That could be possible, their have been studies that suggest normal Maltese's have high bile acids". (Remember Cruz is a Morkie). Now I'm just speechless. I don't know what to do. I feel like the only conclusion we got out of today was that Cruz has a small liver. The vet did write up a prescription for Neomycin and Lactulose along with special diet ex:Hills prescription id. I am supposed to call my regular vet tomorrow to get more info. Am I doing the right thing? Should I do this trial for 2 months or just pay for the $3000-4000 liver biopsy and know for sure?? If it was just food as trial I wouldn't mind but medicine always worries me. Sorry if I babbled. I guess I was hoping for different results. My poor little guy can sense i am upset and I think I am making him worried now!

11-01-2012, 03:44 PM	#25
NicoleMarie Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: New York Posts: 52	I feel the same way about the biopsy (money well spent in my eyes) but then I just keep thinking about how when I asked him if it was possible that Cruz didn't have MVD but just Epilepsy. And he said yes. I just wish their were more test to be done before the biopsy. The biopsy guided ultrasound he talked about (cant remember name) he said couldn't guarantee they would get enough to be sure. So I won't even bother with that. Looks like the liver biopsy is the only way. However he would have to go under anesthesia and if he has liver problems that concerns me too.

11-01-2012, 09:06 PM	#26
concretegurl Between♥Suspensions Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Vaissades Posts: 7,979	I personally would opt for a single test that is more relevent than muktiples even if more invasive-less stress on him. __________________ Shan & 8 kids now!

11-01-2012, 09:48 PM	#27
winkerbean YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: modesto,ca USA Posts: 2	Nicole-marie I can understand your feelings. I was set up for some pretty hard decisions too. But the things I had to ask were are the treatment options the same whether they find out if your dog has a problem or not? If the treatment is the same of diet,meds,and waiting then why put your dog through it? My internal med vet explained that if the treatment were the same then why go through it all, to find an answer? But then at what cost? I told him that the money wasn't the issue but the quality of life for my dog. Then he asked what is your view of "quality of life". "I put my dog through all these test and stress to find nothing or to find some diagnosis and the treatment is what we are doing now". He even went as far to say to postpone the test that were invasive, CT, MRI with anesthesia unless my dog had more seizures with the treatment option given, which are medications. Are the bile acid tests just a rich diet? If you just changed a few things like diet and gave him medications and just waited to see how things go, would it be enough? I was left with this option also. Its a hard one. My dog is much younger than yours but it is still hard to absorb. I went for the option of not doing the tests and anesthesia and just spoiling her with play and treats and just medication. I hope that the seizures won't return. But if they do then I will cross that road but at least I have options. I cant tell you what you should do, but hopefully to see it with different eyes. Last edited by winkerbean; 11-01-2012 at 09:50 PM.

11-02-2012, 12:41 PM	#28
NicoleMarie Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: New York Posts: 52	Thanks everyone! I spent most of the night tossing and turning and trying to come up with the best plan for Cruz. It is just very hard for me to say yes do the liver biopsy when I don't look see a sick dog. He's had 2 seizures in 5 months -no other symptoms! One thing that stuck out in my mind and that I forgot to mention was how the specialist mentioned there were studies indicating that healthy Maltese's have higher bile acids concentrations. This is where he kept mentioning how he could just have epilepsy! (BAT!s were 29/58). Winkerbean~ everything you said made perfect sense! The treatment plan would be exactly the same if he was officially diagnosed. I kept saying this to my husband last night. I think that's when I initially made up my mind. I am going to change his diet and retest the bile acids in a month or two. If we see good results then I know we are on the right track. If we don't, then maybe address the medicine and see if that makes a difference. (Considering Cruz doesn't develop new symptoms) Thanks everyone for all the input and helping me clear my head! Even just reading other stories has provided me with so much information on every topic. In fact I just ordered a buddy belt for Cruz!