Prednizone for liver disease?

[kjc]

I agree, following the advice of people on the internet can be a risky undertaking, as many are stuck in a rut and do not keep up with new findings and discoveries concerning the vaccinations and disease states of companion animals and tend to repeat the same ol' same ol'...

All I can say, is do some research:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...tz-2-10-a.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...d-schultz.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

HEMOPET.HTM

[spiritwings1202]

I am sorry that your baby is going through this but I would not give prednisone, that is just my opinion.
My dog Daisy was in full blown liver failure and the vets stopped all medication and put her on a liver cleanse diet and milk thistle.
Daisy situation might be alot different but her liver enzymes were severly elevated and she was so sick her stomach was black and that was due to her liver.
Daisy had lyme disease and then a severe reaction to her medication. You can read my thread on all that we went through.

I am happy to say that Daisy is doing well and her enzymes are normal, but I home cooked for 3 mon. She was on probiotics, and Sam-e.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...artbroken.html
I hope this helped. I will be praying for your little one.

[spiritwings1202]

Originally Posted by kjc

I agree, following the advice of people on the internet can be a risky undertaking, as many are stuck in a rut and do not keep up with new findings and discoveries concerning the vaccinations and disease states of companion animals and tend to repeat the same ol' same ol'...

All I can say, is do some research:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...tz-2-10-a.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...d-schultz.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

HEMOPET.HTM

I agree research research and research!!
being knowledgeable will help you with communicating with the vets.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by kjc

I agree, following the advice of people on the internet can be a risky undertaking, as many are stuck in a rut and do not keep up with new findings and discoveries concerning the vaccinations and disease states of companion animals and tend to repeat the same ol' same ol'...

All I can say, is do some research:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...tz-2-10-a.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...d-schultz.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

HEMOPET.HTM

I totally agree that some vets and people are stuck in the same rut. There are also people who are stuck on one approach even if not generally or widely accepted in the field. Schultz is a minimalist on vaccines from my understanding. I do not agree with a minimalist approach to vaccines when I assess (with my vet) my dogs' individual levels of risk. In the past, my dogs were overvaccinated and I'm mad about it now that the landscape for vaccines has changed signficantly with the 2006 AAHA and others' guidelines and research. Have my dogs had problems as a result? Not that I'm aware of and at almost 11 years old Barney and Daisy are healthier than more dogs half their age. Yes Barney has had pancreatitis twice but that's it. Daisy was sick long before she left the petstore and certainly longer than any vaccine. Why are they overall healthy? I don't know. It certainly was not good breeding but it was good overall health care and ownership over their life times as I have tried very hard to overcome the deck stacked against them by piss poor breeding. I would (and have) asked my vets hard questions about vaccines, and have left a practice for failure to see eye to eye on vaccines. I take a middle of the road approach to vaccines, and follow the AAHA guidelines with my own edits as I deem correct for my yorkies because they are MY yorkies. But every year that I do not vaccinate for lepto, I worry about our walks through the wet woods, the wildlife in our areas, and the water that is all over our state. The risk is there and it is not a minimal risk here but I still do not do it anymore. Every time I do not vaccinate for Lyme, I worry that a deer tick will get them and here there are deer ticks everywhere even in the city.

This thread is about prednisone for the liver so I don't want to take it off topic any further but I do think we have to put it all into perspective when "researching" things -- who of us has the appropriate skills, education, etc to sort it all out? Unless we are vets ourselves how do we know what we read is correct? I can't be comfortable with my own research in an area I am not trained in or licensed.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I totally agree that some vets and people are stuck in the same rut. There are also people who are stuck on one approach even if not generally or widely accepted in the field. Schultz is a minimalist on vaccines from my understanding. I do not agree with a minimalist approach to vaccines when I assess (with my vet) my dogs' individual levels of risk. In the past, my dogs were overvaccinated and I'm mad about it now that the landscape for vaccines has changed signficantly with the 2006 AAHA and others' guidelines and research. Have my dogs had problems as a result? Not that I'm aware of and at almost 11 years old Barney and Daisy are healthier than more dogs half their age. Yes Barney has had pancreatitis twice but that's it. Daisy was sick long before she left the petstore and certainly longer than any vaccine. Why are they overall healthy? I don't know. It certainly was not good breeding but it was good overall health care and ownership over their life times as I have tried very hard to overcome the deck stacked against them by piss poor breeding. I would (and have) asked my vets hard questions about vaccines, and have left a practice for failure to see eye to eye on vaccines. I take a middle of the road approach to vaccines, and follow the AAHA guidelines with my own edits as I deem correct for my yorkies because they are MY yorkies. But every year that I do not vaccinate for lepto, I worry about our walks through the wet woods, the wildlife in our areas, and the water that is all over our state. The risk is there and it is not a minimal risk here but I still do not do it anymore. Every time I do not vaccinate for Lyme, I worry that a deer tick will get them and here there are deer ticks everywhere even in the city.

This thread is about prednisone for the liver so I don't want to take it off topic any further but I do think we have to put it all into perspective when "researching" things -- who of us has the appropriate skills, education, etc to sort it all out? Unless we are vets ourselves how do we know what we read is correct? I can't be comfortable with my own research in an area I am not trained in or licensed.

Excellent post! As for the last line, I totally 100% agree. I always take what I have read to my vet and have an intelligent discussion with her. I do not take a couple of people's thoughts and buy them wholeheartedly. My vet does not vaccinate yearly .. she follows the AAHA recommendations. She also does not give rabies and DHPP at the same time. She has continuing education for herself and her staff. Definitely not stuck in a rut.

[kjc]

Vaccine issues have not derailed this thread.... it is a fact that vaccinations can cause elevated liver enzymes in some dogs. The problem lies in that all vaccines are made strong enough to elicite an immune response in dogs that weigh more than 100 pounds, and that these are the same vaccines that are given to our beloved 20 pounds and under Yorkies.

Even following a minimalist approach to vaccinations, one is still, technically, overvaccinating one's dogs.

And, yes, I do agree, this all needs to be taken into consideration when discussing what is or isn't an appropriate vaccination for each dog, with your vet. One should also take into consideration how well each vaccine works, how long it remains effective, weigh the risk against the benefit, etc.

And I am correct in saying that the Lepto vaccine is not recommended for use because the types of Lepto the vaccine protects against is not the same type of Lepto that is being found in diseased animals. Please discuss this with your vet also.

[Becca1]

Originally Posted by spiritwings1202

I am sorry that your baby is going through this but I would not give prednisone, that is just my opinion.
My dog Daisy was in full blown liver failure and the vets stopped all medication and put her on a liver cleanse diet and milk thistle.
Daisy situation might be alot different but her liver enzymes were severly elevated and she was so sick her stomach was black and that was due to her liver.
Daisy had lyme disease and then a severe reaction to her medication. You can read my thread on all that we went through.

I am happy to say that Daisy is doing well and her enzymes are normal, but I home cooked for 3 mon. She was on probiotics, and Sam-e.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...artbroken.html
I hope this helped. I will be praying for your little one.

Thank you for the link. I am so happy that Daisy is now doing well. I am not currently giving the Predisone and I will keep doing my research "homework"!!

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Becca1

Thank you for the link. I am so happy that Daisy is now doing well. I am not currently giving the Predisone and I will keep doing my research "homework"!!

I certainly hope your decision was made after consultation with your veterinarian. I also hope that you tapered her off of the prednisone. I would be very careful about where you research....and what you believe. There is a wealth of great information out there, but there also are people posting and blowing their own horns on websites without any real research having been done. They remind me of big fish in small ponds. Remember that people also followed Jim Jones and drank purple kool aid....so people can be convincing.

Speaking of research....here are some sites with real research data...much of it is beyond what lay people really can evaluate...but perhaps it will help you:

PubMed: MEDLINE® Retrieval on the World Wide Web Fact Sheet

Merck Veterinary Manual


Just my thoughts...and I wish you and your pup well.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by kjc

Vaccine issues have not derailed this thread.... it is a fact that vaccinations can cause elevated liver enzymes in some dogs. The problem lies in that all vaccines are made strong enough to elicite an immune response in dogs that weigh more than 100 pounds, and that these are the same vaccines that are given to our beloved 20 pounds and under Yorkies.

Even following a minimalist approach to vaccinations, one is still, technically, overvaccinating one's dogs.

And, yes, I do agree, this all needs to be taken into consideration when discussing what is or isn't an appropriate vaccination for each dog, with your vet. One should also take into consideration how well each vaccine works, how long it remains effective, weigh the risk against the benefit, etc.

And I am correct in saying that the Lepto vaccine is not recommended for use because the types of Lepto the vaccine protects against is not the same type of Lepto that is being found in diseased animals. Please discuss this with your vet also.

My understanding is that the older lepto vaccine only protected against two serovars (strains) of leptospirosis that were commonly seen in ill dogs when the disease was first a problem. The new vaccine however covers 4 serovars and these cover some illnesses seen more recently in dogs.
Canine leptospirosis: A re-emerging disease in the United States (Proceedings) - Veterinary Healthcare

[ladyjane]

Following is a link to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention regarding Leptospirosis:


Disease Listing, Leptospirosis and Your Pet | CDC Bacterial, Mycotic Diseases

Hopefully, this will educate people about the disease, treatment, and also prevention.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by 107barney

My understanding is that the older lepto vaccine only protected against two serovars (strains) of leptospirosis that were commonly seen in ill dogs when the disease was first a problem. The new vaccine however covers 4 serovars and these cover some illnesses seen more recently in dogs.
Canine leptospirosis: A re-emerging disease in the United States (Proceedings) - Veterinary Healthcare

Great post... but her dog has been vaccinated with the 'old' Lepto vaccine.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by kjc

Great post... but her dog has been vaccinated with the 'old' Lepto vaccine.

Are you saying this has something to do with her pup having a shunt? For the life of me I cannot follow this one. You ask everyone about vaccines as if they are the cause of every illness and honestly that just is not so. Or shall we say that there is no real research that I have seen that shows that. It quite frankly frightens me that people are being told that vaccines are bad; but I suppose that some people will believe that no matter what evidence is given. I guess it is going to sadly come to someone losing a pup to distemper, parvo or lepto when it did not have to happen. It brings to mind the people who swear that children are getting autism because of vaccines when there is no real research to back the claim...and now whooping cough is on the rise in the US.
I also doubt her pup was given an old vaccine but I did not PM her or give her my telephone number ...besides, your claim was that lepto should never be given because, and I quote you: "because the types of Lepto the vaccine protects against is not the same type of Lepto that is being found in diseased animals". and that is also just not accurate even though you said this: "I am correct in saying that the Lepto vaccine is not recommended for use". Of course I will admit that someone may have said that....but I would love to see real research that supports that claim.
What I will say is that if a dog gets Lepto, it can be at risk of severe liver and/or kidney damage.
It was my understanding that this pup has a shunt. Perhaps you know something the rest of us are not aware of??
I suppose you know more about this case because you are once again PMing and telephoning. If people want to follow your line of thinking and not trust their vets then I guess there is not much I can say is there?
OP I will pray that your pup will be fine and that you find a vet whom you can trust.

[ladyjane]

The following link is excellent! I hate that this is in the wrong thread heading, but at least someone will see it and gain knowledge about Lepto and the vaccine.

Canine Leptospirosis


From the link:


Vaccination of dogs for leptospirosis has been a controversial issue for the past several years. Early vaccines protected against strains bratislava and canicola. However, there is no cross protection between the various serovars in vaccines. It was also suspected that older leptospira vaccines caused a large number of vaccines reactions. It has been determined that it was the cellular debris in the vaccine (contaminants) and not the leptospira which caused the reaction.

Fort Dodge’s vaccine, Duramune Max 5-CvK/4L, is a killed vaccine that protects against the four most common serovars: L. grippotyphosa, L. pomona, L. icterohemorrhagia, and L. cannicola. This newer vaccine incorporates state of the art sub-unit technology. This involves separating the surface immunogens from the extraneous cellular debris and reducing the level of contaminants in the vaccine; thereby reducing the potential for adverse reactions while maintaining immunogenicity.

Efficacy studies with the vaccine demonstrated a 90% reduction in clinical signs in the vaccinated animals compared to control animals (those exposed to disease with no prior vaccination). All vaccinated animals were able to clear the infection before it could cause disease. Vaccination with the new Fort Dodge vaccine also prevented clinical shedding by infected dogs.

Numerous safety studies demonstrated less than 1.1% incidence of adverse effects (vaccine reactions) from vaccination. Adverse reactions can include injection site pain and swelling less than 24 hours duration, pruritis (itching) at the injection site immediately, lethargy for one day, increased thirst and anaphylaxis (shock). Banfield Veterinary Hospitals performed their own safety study involving 144, 387 doses of Duramune Max5-CvK/4L to their patients. They estimated less than 0.27% reaction rate over all with 0.01% rate of anaphylaxis. Of those patients that had reactions, small breeds did have a slightly higher reaction rate of 1% compared to 0.25% with large and mixed breed dogs. Interestingly enough, their rabies vaccination (brand not stated) had a slightly higher reaction rate than did the leptospira vaccine. Vaccination with DHPPC (again, brand used not stated) produced the same percentage of reactions as did those vaccinated for leptospira.

Who should be vaccinated? It is recommended that all dogs be vaccinated because of the zoonotic potential of the disease. We strongly recommend that all dogs used for hunting and working, dogs taken camping, dogs living in rural/farm areas, and dogs with access to ponds, lakes, or drainage ditches be vaccinated. Dogs housed where there are problems with rodents, raccoons and wildlife exposure should also be vaccinated.

Vaccines protecting against viral diseases, such as Parvovirus and Distemper virus, are given once every three years after an initial puppy series and a booster vaccination one year later. However, Leptospira is a bacterin, not a virus, and it needs to be given more frequently. Leptospira vaccine initially should be given two times at three weeks apart and then annually. Those dogs that receieved the older leptospira vaccines should still receive the two boosters of the newer vaccine because of the added serovars.

Please feel free to discuss any questions or concerns that you may have about this vaccine or disease with our Doctors.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by kjc

Great post... but her dog has been vaccinated with the 'old' Lepto vaccine.

The new Lepto vaccine has been around since 2004. This OP's dog is only 4 years old. Unless the vet is cheap and outmoded, I'd assume they woudl use the most up-to-date vaccines and protocols (another reason I stick with AAHA vets by the way who at least have some objective standards they follow). I do suppose that a vet could deem one product to be better based on the serovars showing up in diseased animals in that particular geographic area so maybe that is part of the individualized assessment of risk and benefit that a professional does.

In the northeast dogs die every year from Leptospirosis and the few that make it have kidney and liver problems. It is a very difficult disease to diagnose. In our case, my vets know to put Lepto on a differential diagnosis list because our dogs are unvaccinated and are at a higher risk for the disease. As long as I keep seeing raccoons in my yard, I am going to assume there is a possibility of infected urine that could cause the transmission of the disease to my little cuties when they are out there romping. I should note that I live in an urban area where there are dogs being diagnosed with leptospirosis infection.

I still do not opt to vaccinate, taking my own precautions and offering up a few prayers. I'm constantly on the fence on this one and because my dogs have not had reactions to vaccines in the past, it may be one that comes back into play for us...

But I have to say, I've never heard of a vaccine creating a liver shunt. I'd like to ask my vets about this one, but would want to point to at least some credible or reliable veterinary source (such as a peer reviewed journal article) as a springboard for the discussion. If one such reliable source exists, I'd like to read it to learn more about this.

[Becca1]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I certainly hope your decision was made after consultation with your veterinarian. I also hope that you tapered her off of the prednisone. I would be very careful about where you research....and what you believe. There is a wealth of great information out there, but there also are people posting and blowing their own horns on websites without any real research having been done. They remind me of big fish in small ponds. Remember that people also followed Jim Jones and drank purple kool aid....so people can be convincing.

Speaking of research....here are some sites with real research data...much of it is beyond what lay people really can evaluate...but perhaps it will help you:

PubMed: MEDLINE® Retrieval on the World Wide Web Fact Sheet

Merck Veterinary Manual


Just my thoughts...and I wish you and your pup well.

Thanks for the links - I have been on the Merck Veterinary Manual and did read a lot of good information. I am in consultation with our vet and he would like me to keep her on the 1/2 tab every other day regimine of prednisolone and then check her enzyme levels in a couple months. I have read that prednisolone is used in controlling some aspects of liver disease and feel a little better about it.