Seizure? Neurological? I have no idea

[Mitzis Mom]

Well... Mikki actually stiffens up totally, arches her back and cries... so that could be a grand mal seizure... now I'm scared...

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom

Well... Mikki actually stiffens up totally, arches her back and cries... so that could be a grand mal seizure... now I'm scared...

How often does Mikki do that and how many times has it happened. Don't be scared, but get some blood work done.

[Mitzis Mom]

It started about 1 1/2 years ago and it happens every 3 to 8 weeks. The vet told me that meds are not necessary as long as it doesn't get more frequently and the seizures don't last longer. I'll have some blood work done anyway...

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom

It started about 1 1/2 years ago and it happens every 3 to 8 weeks. The vet told me that meds are not necessary as long as it doesn't get more frequently and the seizures don't last longer. I'll have some blood work done anyway...

Have you gotten a second opinion from an internal medicine vet? Epilepsy is a progressive disease due to "kindling", a phenomena that actually allows to brain create a path to make the next seizure easier. Repeated seizures lower the seizure threshold.

Q. What is kindling?

A. Kindling is the experimental phenomenon whereby repeated stimulation of the brain can eventually induce a chronic epileptic state that persists after the stimulation is stopped.

The underlying mechanisms of kindling are incompletely understood but involve changes in the electrical behavior of a group of brain cells. This may be related to alterations of chemical receptors (specifically what are called NMDA subtype of glutamate receptors) and changes in how these brain cells connect with each other through structures called synapses.

In a sense, by having repeated seizure the brain "learns" how to have seizures. Think about how a young child learning to write their name has to concentrate when printing each letter. After doing this over and over, we become able to quickly write our name without even thinking about the intricate hand movements involved. Obviously there is some change in our brain that allows this to happen, but it does not have to be a structural lesion.

I think of kindling as something similar. The brain is doing what it is designed to do...learn. It is just learning to do something harmful like have a seizure.

WB Thomas, DVM
Dipl. ACVIM (Neurology)
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, TN


Medication can help stop this progression which can lead to dangerous cluster seizures. With the frequency of Mitzi's seizures, I would be very concerned. When a dog has more than a couple of seizures a year, most vets recommend medication.

[princessizzy]

Originally Posted by Mom2TwoYorkies

That is exactly what happened. . . .

Just got back from the vet . . .Rhianna had a seizure at 6:54pm . . .I couldn't wait until tomorrow at that point. I brought the video along and the doctor thinks that the video was an indication that she was going to seize . . . They did a blood panel and urine and I'll have the results tomorrow. Her physical exam, heart, lungs, motor skills were fine. The vet said that since she had one July 3 and another tonight, she didn't feel it necessary to put her on meds. She said that cluster seizures would be med worthy and since Rhianna only had 2 seizures almost 2 months apart, she felt that a lifetime of meds would not be good for her. Right now they are calling it epilepsy and we will await the blood results tomorrow . . .

I'm so sorry But I'm glad you took her in!!! She'll be in my thought..

[princessizzy]

Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom

It started about 1 1/2 years ago and it happens every 3 to 8 weeks. The vet told me that meds are not necessary as long as it doesn't get more frequently and the seizures don't last longer. I'll have some blood work done anyway...

With her having them that often...that would really scare me... I'm not saying not to trust your vet but maybe a 2nd opinion wouldn't hurt? Just thought

[Mom2TwoYorkies]

Just a quick update . . .haven't heard anything yet. I did call and was told that blood work was in and in doctor's box waiting. Apparently there have been a couple emergency situations arise . . .so I'm sitting here at work trying not to throw up I'm so sick about this . . .I'm doing everything I can not to break down and cry . . .YT is the only place I can come for support unfortunately as even my own husband doesn't understand my concerns/fears, etc.

I will post results when I get them.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Mom2TwoYorkies

Just a quick update . . .haven't heard anything yet. I did call and was told that blood work was in and in doctor's box waiting. Apparently there have been a couple emergency situations arise . . .so I'm sitting here at work trying not to throw up I'm so sick about this . . .I'm doing everything I can not to break down and cry . . .YT is the only place I can come for support unfortunately as even my own husband doesn't understand my concerns/fears, etc.

I will post results when I get them.

I hope your vet did a bile acids test, although I suspect he didn't. No matter what the results are today, Rhianna needs to get a BAT if she didn't already have one.

Try to stay calm. It's always better to know what it is you are dealing with.

[Mitzis Mom]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Have you gotten a second opinion from an internal medicine vet? Epilepsy is a progressive disease due to "kindling", a phenomena that actually allows to brain create a path to make the next seizure easier. Repeated seizures lower the seizure threshold.

Q. What is kindling?

A. Kindling is the experimental phenomenon whereby repeated stimulation of the brain can eventually induce a chronic epileptic state that persists after the stimulation is stopped.

The underlying mechanisms of kindling are incompletely understood but involve changes in the electrical behavior of a group of brain cells. This may be related to alterations of chemical receptors (specifically what are called NMDA subtype of glutamate receptors) and changes in how these brain cells connect with each other through structures called synapses.

In a sense, by having repeated seizure the brain "learns" how to have seizures. Think about how a young child learning to write their name has to concentrate when printing each letter. After doing this over and over, we become able to quickly write our name without even thinking about the intricate hand movements involved. Obviously there is some change in our brain that allows this to happen, but it does not have to be a structural lesion.

I think of kindling as something similar. The brain is doing what it is designed to do...learn. It is just learning to do something harmful like have a seizure.

WB Thomas, DVM
Dipl. ACVIM (Neurology)
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, TN


Medication can help stop this progression which can lead to dangerous cluster seizures. With the frequency of Mitzi's seizures, I would be very concerned. When a dog has more than a couple of seizures a year, most vets recommend medication.

Thanks a lot! I'll have to check where in our wider neighborhood an internal vet practices and get a second opinion....

Do you by chance have any info if there is a holistic approach to treat epilepsy in dogs? The reason I'm asking is that we lost our sweet little Mitzi 2 years ago to renal faillure that was probably caused by to much medication and other chemicals put into her tiny body. I don't want to risk that happen again...

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom

Thanks a lot! I'll have to check where in our wider neighborhood an internal vet practices and get a second opinion....

Do you by chance have any info if there is a holistic approach to treat epilepsy in dogs? The reason I'm asking is that we lost our sweet little Mitzi 2 years ago to renal faillure that was probably caused by to much medication and other chemicals put into her tiny body. I don't want to risk that happen again...

I don't know of a holistic approach to control seizures, but you can protect the liver from damage holistically. Milk thistle is wonderful. Lady has been on a very high dose of phenobarbital for seizures 10.5 years and her ALT is 79 - normal. Pheno is notoroius for causing liver damage over time, but I started using milk thistle right from the start. A few years ago her ALT started showing signs of liver damage. It was around 300. I added Denosyl and put her on a liver friendly homecooked diet and her ALT came back down.

Although anti seizure medication can have side effects, if Mitzi is having seizures that frequently, I would get a second opinion from an internal medicine specialist. Cluster seizures can cause brain damage and the biggest fear with cluster seizures is that they can't come out of it. I lost a dog to epilepsy that way many years ago. It was horrible.

Mitzi absolutely needs a bile acids test. A competent vet should automatically recommend a bile acids test on any Yorkie who is having seizures since Yorkies are 36 times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined. I would not want Mitzi to be put on anti convulsants until you rule out a shunt. They would only further damage her liver.

[Mom2TwoYorkies]

All her blood work and urine were perfect (exactly the vet's words). I did ask about a BAT and the vet said If I wanted to get one done, she'd do it, and then she said that LS was not even a thought in her mind even though Rhianna is a yorkie for the following reasons:

Liver and Kidney values were spot on
She's not losing weight and/or thin
No vomiting/diarrea
Not lethargic
Doesn't have behavior issues like staring into space, doing circles, etc.
She handled her spay anesthesia with no issues

So she is diagnosing her as idiopathetic epilepsy and advised me to keep a log of episodes. She doesn't want to start her on a seizure med because her seizures aren't of severe nature and not cluster seizures, but if things do become different, we'll re-evaluate then.

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by Mom2TwoYorkies

All her blood work and urine were perfect (exactly the vet's words). I did ask about a BAT and the vet said If I wanted to get one done, she'd do it, and then she said that LS was not even a thought in her mind even though Rhianna is a yorkie for the following reasons:

Liver and Kidney values were spot on
She's not losing weight and/or thin
No vomiting/diarrea
Not lethargic
Doesn't have behavior issues like staring into space, doing circles, etc.
She handled her spay anesthesia with no issues

So she is diagnosing her as idiopathetic epilepsy and advised me to keep a log of episodes. She doesn't want to start her on a seizure med because her seizures aren't of severe nature and not cluster seizures, but if things do become different, we'll re-evaluate then.

This is awesome news!

I'm not going to tell you to follow through with a BAT test. That's up to you. Max has idiopathic epilepsy and we are getting it under control. I'm so very happy to hear this news. Just watch the baby carefully.

[Keno]

Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom

Thanks a lot! I'll have to check where in our wider neighborhood an internal vet practices and get a second opinion....

Do you by chance have any info if there is a holistic approach to treat epilepsy in dogs? The reason I'm asking is that we lost our sweet little Mitzi 2 years ago to renal faillure that was probably caused by to much medication and other chemicals put into her tiny body. I don't want to risk that happen again...

Originally Posted by Ladymom

I don't know of a holistic approach to control seizures, but you can protect the liver from damage holistically. Milk thistle is wonderful. Lady has been on a very high dose of phenobarbital for seizures 10.5 years and her ALT is 79 - normal. Pheno is notoroius for causing liver damage over time, but I started using milk thistle right from the start. A few years ago her ALT started showing signs of liver damage. It was around 300. I added Denosyl and put her on a liver friendly homecooked diet and her ALT came back down.

Although anti seizure medication can have side effects, if Mitzi is having seizures that frequently, I would get a second opinion from an internal medicine specialist. Cluster seizures can cause brain damage and the biggest fear with cluster seizures is that they can't come out of it. I lost a dog to epilepsy that way many years ago. It was horrible.

Mitzi absolutely needs a bile acids test. A competent vet should automatically recommend a bile acids test on any Yorkie who is having seizures since Yorkies are 36 times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined. I would not want Mitzi to be put on anti convulsants until you rule out a shunt. They would only further damage her liver.

So Mitzi is not going to go to a vet unless she can go to a holistic vet, even though she is having seizures? Aren't you concerned about the seizures and do you not want a vet's professional opinion? Just tell the vet that you want low dosages of whatever he prescribes. This way you do not have to worry about too much medication in her system.

I hope Mitzi feels better. But I do hope you take her to the vet ASAP.

[princessizzy]

Originally Posted by Mom2TwoYorkies

All her blood work and urine were perfect (exactly the vet's words). I did ask about a BAT and the vet said If I wanted to get one done, she'd do it, and then she said that LS was not even a thought in her mind even though Rhianna is a yorkie for the following reasons:

Liver and Kidney values were spot on
She's not losing weight and/or thin
No vomiting/diarrea
Not lethargic
Doesn't have behavior issues like staring into space, doing circles, etc.
She handled her spay anesthesia with no issues

So she is diagnosing her as idiopathetic epilepsy and advised me to keep a log of episodes. She doesn't want to start her on a seizure med because her seizures aren't of severe nature and not cluster seizures, but if things do become different, we'll re-evaluate then.

Glad everything is ok.... I'll be think of this sweetheart often

[Mitzis Mom]

Originally Posted by Keno

So Mitzi is not going to go to a vet unless she can go to a holistic vet, even though she is having seizures? Aren't you concerned about the seizures and do you not want a vet's professional opinion? Just tell the vet that you want low dosages of whatever he prescribes. This way you do not have to worry about too much medication in her system.

I hope Mitzi feels better. But I do hope you take her to the vet ASAP.

Well... our Mitzi has gone to rainbow bridge 2 years ago and it's Mikki our 2 y.o. that has the seizures (I know it's confusing with all the 'M's... LOL)

Mikki is under constant vet care and I record her seizures in a log that lists date, time, duration, possible triggers, and noticed behaviours before and after. She is not on any medication b/c the vets don't see the necessity and have the opinion that a seizure medication would do more harm than good. This is the opinion of two different vets in two different states and I felt comfortable with both.

Of course I will do the best I can for our little girl and every new information is precious to me. If Mikki needs to get medication she will get it, no question. For example our Maggie who suffers from severe allergies is on Atopica even though we know it might compromise her immune system but nothing else helps her to have a somewhat itchfree life. I'm just not for giving (or also taking myself) pills to suppress the symptoms if there are other ways to treat the illness. However, I thank you for your concerns regarding the well being of our precious Mikki girl...