Epilepsy Cluster Seizures
 

Please note I started this thread under CECS in a Yorkie, I watched videos of dog seizures after leaving the emergency vet Friday night and though Elvie did nothing like that until i watch a video of a dog with CECS. Elvis has been dignosised with "cluster seizures" well diagnoises with epilepsy but the vet kept saying cluster seizures because there are variations. Has anyone had a Yorkie with this, know someone, anyone had or same a Yorkie who had very weird seizures...Elvis first started with his legs straight out the joints did not bend, I looked and though OMG are his legs broken? But he immediately began to lose motor control all together as he attempted to run to me, he went sideways and back staggering, his back arched up like a cat's when it hisses (that was the hardest part to witness there is no way he did that voluntarily nor comfortably) I grabbed him and every muscle in his body was a tense as could be--rock hard. He stayed that way for about three minutes and was responsive to me however his muscles contracted so hard he couldn't move, a couple minutes later it started again only this time after his back went up and his legs went straight out his little head went very slowly from right to left as far as it could go like he was slowly saying no, that lasted a few minutes I was frantically holding him searching for the vet's number (if you are reading this put your vet's number and after hours number on speed dial trust me) and looking for the emergency vet, Elvis began to have a third seizure he went over to his side and legs straight out while he looked at me and began to shake slightly. Obviously at this point I just grabbed him and went out the door to the closest vet's office down the road (I had a blanket over him out of instinct so glad I did). Every time I previously had seen or heard of a seizure someone almost always looses consciousness, can loose bowels or bladder control, foam at the mouth and shakes horribly...never have I seen one where the muscles literally tense completely and cause a virtual paralysis...anyone? For those of you who have never seen it, as I was before this, sorry for the drastic description. Elvis appears to be fine now, althoguh a few times he has began to shake and get very tense but nothing liek the first three times, the vet says seizures can vary in degree and Elvie can either begin to have them everyday, never again , or who knows from this point. I have a referral to a neurologist @ UC Davis...I just want to hear form some people who have seen their dogs do this or another, and find out if they experienced the little mild episodes as seizures too and wheat they have sought as treatment. I do have him on a raw food no beef diet now. Karo syrup ready, but I don't get clear directives until the Davis diagnosis.

All I can say is that I'm sorry you're both having to go thru this. I hope you can get some answers soon and I'll send a prayer up that it'll never happen again.

Oh, I am so sorry. I cried reading this. I cannot imagine how helpless you must have felt.
I hope that the appt with the neurologist goes well.
I am sorry I don't have any helpful information for you, but want you to know that someone cares.

Hello! I know your post is old now, but I'm wondering if you ever found out what happened with Elvis? Yesterday, my baby had a seizure and it sounds exactly like what happened to Elvis. He was at daycare, and they said that it wasn't like a normal seizure, where the dog's legs and body shakes. Instead, all of his legs went straight and were incredibly tensed. It lasted for about 2 minutes. I'm so sad for him, it's so hard to know that your baby was in pain and can't possibly understand what is happening to him :( Anyway, I hope that Elvis is better now, and I like his name :)

Lady has had seizures since I adopted her at age 4.5. Ten years later we have them very well controlled with both phenobarbital and potassium bromide (KBr). We added KBr when she was 6.5 and started having cluster seizures.

Cluster seizures refer to the frequency of seizures (multiple seizures in a twenty-four hour period), not the behavior during the seizure.

Lady has typical Grand Mal seizures. She loses consciousness, falls down, jerks, paddles, yelps, loses control of her bowels and bladder, etc.

I am glad you are taking him to a neurologist. In the meantime, this website has been my "bible" over the years.

Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

I posted this today
 

I posted this today, Elvis had this on Friday, March 19, 2010. I haven't even picked up the referral papers or contacted the neuro vet @Davis, I'm really the wrong person to ask for advise, I'm seeking it right now. But keep reading this thread and maybe whatever help i get you can be aided in, most important thing you can do is take em to the vet for testing and get on here and talk to ppl. Vets are great but they are doctors, very clinical and unattached...they have to be for their own emotional well being, also vets seldom sit and talk about holistic dog treats and the more superior details of care, thus you have groomers and YT! Elvis seems to be fine, but I'm glad I re-posted he has been very well he seems to be having mood swings that coincide with I think are mini cluster seizures. he actually growled and barked at my son tonight, given Elvie doesn't really like kids, but he hasn't done that before and he has been a little moody the last couple days anyways on and off.

Did you see the link I posted above?

What you describe doesn't sound like "normal" seizures which happen and are over within a few minutes. Behavior changes, aggression, and mood swings sounds like there is something more going on.

As I mentioned above, cluster seizures refer to the frequency of seizures, not a particular physical behavior during a seizure.

Cluster Seizures: Two or more seizures occurring over a brief period of time (minutes to hours) but with the patient regaining consiousness between the seizures.

Cluster Seizures are multiple seizures within a 24 hour period time. This may also be life threatening.

Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

How old is Elvis?

I'd make that appointment with the neurologist asap if I were you.

phenobarbital bad
 

I've nothing psoitive about phenobarbital other than it is in fact used for seizures, my vet recommended Valium both during a seizure to aid in the stopping preventing liver kidney damage and further neurological issue and as a treatment for "cluster seizures",along with another one started with a L, he said pheno concerned him in small dogs if not altogether. Yes I know they are the frequency, the problem with cluster seizures is that there is several in a short period causing damage before and on top of damage, and they over stress more than regular seizures. I appreciate the link, I have been sent that one, I'm just frustrated in not finding seizures similar to Elvis' I'm looking for a medicine that won't cause the same damage as the seizure itself, and again I'm strictly doing research right now I haven't yet taken him to Davis for testing and gotten a recommendations. I prefer holistic an homeopathic treatments, pharmaceuticals are great, unfortunately many of them are just as harmful if not more harmful than the issue you are treating for...please no one take that as a justification for not treating a dog with the proper treatment, I just like to know all possibilities and the ramifications of all possibilities, before proceding with the best treatment.
For example, my female schnauzer started getting beef stains , everyone swears by this product Angle Eyes, (hope they don't sue me for this) well yes it seems to work great but it contains a very serious regimens of antibiotics in it, why would I want to continually make my dog immune to antibiotics and giver her antibiotic daily for no infection? I was also suggested to use a peroxide solution...on her eyes and mouth and paws where she will eat it? I don't think so...I did more research, white dogs should be on special diets and groomed more often and the real issue was her food and to ensure she stays dry and is treated for yeast infections mildly. I changed her diet groom her 3 times a week instead of once and her beef staining on her feet, eyes, ears, and mouth is virtually gone.
I'm just looking for a shared situation and the advice someone can offer on everything the vet might not consider telling me...& EVERYONE SHOWING SUPPORT ON HERE HAS BEEN A BLESSING IN ITSELF TY TY TY

Elvis is 2 1/2 the vet said that is a common on set time for seizures, and that the mildness of seizures can vary, but call me naive I saw a video of a dog with CECS and I was like OMG that's what Elvis did! Apparently Yorkie's don't get CECS though, either or its neurological and epilepsy, the vet did many tests on him. I'm getting information on the vet neuro tomorrow and calling, I'm wondering if Elvis knows he not right and frustrated or what its not a dramatic change but I've only had him two months he came to me from a breeder who got him from another breeder, the breeder I got him from swears he has never done this before, I believe her as she bred him and now has two pups she has to adopt out instead of selling as they can have this issue also. I've heard through YT and various other internet information the breeder who bred Elvis had to end her breeding line for genetic issues, which she emphatically denies...but literally all this in what 5 days now. I'm still reeling from it all a bit and doing research research research preparing for the meeting with the neurologists`.

Oh, dear. My Lady is a rescue also. She had her first seizure three days after I adopted her.

Has Elvis had a bile acids test? Since liver shunts are so common in Yorkies and seizures are a classic symptom, he needs to have one to rule it out.

On the link I posted earlier, there is a whole list of things that can trigger seizures. Many are very common household items.

Just to reassure you, Lady has been on Phenobarbital for 10 years and her last ALT was 79 - perfectly normal! I have had her on milk thistle practically from the day she started pheno. (There is information about milk thistle on that website, too). Her liver values started to elevate a few years ago (300) and I started home cooking for her. Thankfully, her liver regenerated.

Lady's seizures were too frequent to not go on pheno. My vet told me that if she was only having a couple of seizures a year, we wouldn't medicate. She was having a couple seizures a week when I adopted her so we had no choice. As I am sure your vet told you, there is a risk of brain damage from too many seizures.

Have you heard of kindling? It's a phenomenon where the brain actually learns to have seizures by having seizures. Every time they have a seizure, the brain rewires itself to make a path so the next seizure is easier. That's why it's important to get seizures under control, especially cluster seizures.

Lady started having cluster seizures a couple years after she was diagnosed with epilepsy. I'm sure your vet told you how dangerous they can be. I'm glad you have Valium on hand.

I lost a rescue English Setter to epilepsy years ago. She started having cluster seizures one night and we couldn't stop them. She went into status epilepticus.

Hopefully the neurologist can find an underlying reason for his seizures. If he truly has idiopathic epilepsy, please try to be open minded about medication.

Tests
 

Tests
 

:thumbup::thumbup: I couldn't agree more! That's why I posted the list of common household items that can trigger seizures. Using scented detergent or dryer sheets to wash their bedding can trigger seizures. Rosemary can also trigger seizures in dogs with a low seizure threshold.

Heartguard has Ivermectin which studies have shown can trigger seizures. I use Interceptor which is considered the safest for epileptic dogs. Frontline is the recommended flea preventative for dogs prone to seizures. I also wait two weeks in between treatment. I do heartworm on the 1st of the month, flea treatment on the 15th.

I hope you and your vet can get Elvis' seizures under control.

I use Frontline Plus, as we have major ticks here, and do the meds on the 8 and the 21 weird days but that's just when I go the RX from the vet. I had heard about the Rosemary and will look into your link, I'll contact my vet about switching his heart wormer tomorrow. So glad you posted on here to me! Thank you!
Personal note...
Luckily (did I actually just say luckily about our allergies?!?) we, my self daughter and son all have extreme allergies to mold, dust and pet dander hence we have three hypoallergenic dogs, we having serious allergies cannot use anything like perfumes, dyes, etc in out house hold items so what we do use is considered for hypoallergenic people, I'm also one of those health nuts who prefers everything homeopathic (meaning without harmful or ingredients that can cause reaction) and dust mites irritate my son so we have all hypoallergenic bedding and such-and the dogs have to have them too because they sleep with us.

Behavior changes
 

Elvis had seizure tonight. Shortly after he chased barking and snapping at my son. I had to grab Elvis by his scruff and kennel him. He is calm now and back to normal. The vet talked about behavior changes...just not sure what to do right now...

update
 

Elvis continues to have seizures, we have worked on the behavior...he is a friendly as ever but immediately after a seizure he bites...who can blame him he's terrified! Elvis has cluster seizures which means he has usually 3-5 seizure a little as minutes apart and for the length of several days at a time. He seems to be loosing his sense of smell and depth perception or sight in one eye, as well now lets his tongue often hang out of his mouth. However most of the time he is happy and healthy, with the exception of early arthritis, but I give him a daily supplement for it, which has truly aided in his symptoms for that disappearing. We can't do anything fo rthe seizures there is not pattern of them, and they are not frequent enough to medicate him...in all honesty the medications cause so many side effects I'm almost glad not to give him anything. We keep a list of things that can trigger seizures on the fridge (rosemary is a HUGE one) switched his heart worm and worming treatment, continue with the frontline plus and hope for the best. I'm deeply troubled by the response from he kennel I got him from and the later finding out that he was actually purchased from another breeder who after his litter ended her line, fixed her dogs and petted them out-as she should have-but failed to tell anyone she ended her line for a genetic defect-EPILEPSY. I can't imagine not having him in my life now though. I wouldn't however recommended getting a dog with issues like his to anyone whom can't handle the loss...Elvis is only 3 years old and according to my vet in another two years (if that) I'll be making decisions about the quality of his life verses postponing his life if his seizures keep up and continue to take away his abilities at the current rate of progression. I'll do whatever it takes to keep him around and going strong but with a heavy heart, quality of life has to be considered also. Until then I enjoy everyday with him and most days you'd never know he was anything less than in perfect and in perfect health.

Cluster seizures 3-5 minutes apart that last for several days are certainly frequent enough to medicate!

Idopathic epilepsy usually doesn't have a "pattern", but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be medicated. Lady has never had a pattern or any triggers I could pinpoint.

Losing his eyesight and sense of smell is from brain damage from such frequent seizures. Not medicating Elvis when his cluster seizures are that close together means you face status epilepticus, a horrible emergency situation that may cause irreversible brain damage.

Epilepsy should not be a death sentence! My Lady has had seizures since I adopted her at age four. They were frequent enough (several a month) that we started phenobarbital. A few years later she started having cluster seizures and had an episode that lasted for 48 hours. My vet added potassium bromide and we were able to get them under control. She is now 15 and hasn't had a seizure in several years. With supplements to protect her liver and a special homecooked diet the past few years, her liver values are still in the normal range/no damage from her medication.

Ladymom. mu dog is on the same medications for seizures too. He hasn't had one in about 8 years, thank goodness. It breaks your heart to see them go thru a seizure.

I agree with everything said here. My puppy Max had focal seizures starting at 12 weeks old every few minutes. The seizures would last for about 5 seconds each but would go on all day long every day. He is currently on phenobarbital and since he's been regulated has not had anymore seizures. We are very proactive in checking his liver function. But in all honesty, I would much prefer a potential side effect for taking medicine than the type of reactions your dog is getting from having seizures! Max has idiopathic epilepsy. I consider him a very healthy dog.

I totally agree that it sounds like this pup needs medication!

Going to print this out and take it back to my vet...but Elvis' seizures are about 4-6 months apart is "episodes" its just that once he has one he has 3-5 within 48 hours...really appreciate the follow up from everyone I feel like after the initial emergency the vet was deeply concerned for a 30 day and then a 90 day tracking period kind of went there's nothing we can do besides give Karo syrup in between seizures, keep valume on hand if he doesn't come out of it in more than 5 minutes (some of those times one minute, two minutes-have been the longest minutes of my life) I have taken him to three vets locally because I felt kind of concerned about hte vets lattened laxed approach-although I do go to a very esteemed vet-I wasn't willing to just have one opinion to go on. All the vets felt that his seizure episodes weren't frequent enough and that medication long term has the same effects as untreated "mild" cluster epilepsy. I was still frustrated thinking why is it other dogs have seizures and live long lives and I'm here being told I will have to be making quality of life decisions for my Elvie-roo before a quarter of his expected life span has passed? I also did the UC Davis consult and they too agreed his disorder doesn't warrant meds unless the seizure episode become monthly, but still he has 3-5 at a time, often minutes apart...

Did you tell them that it goes on for "days at a time"?? I cannot believe that they think that is ok. :(

Yes but apparently the "methodology" of seizure severity decision making (or some nonsense liek that!) tracks seizure activity in a 48 hour period so apparently that's not a big deal...well to some people, to me it's huge, one seizure is huge let alone 3-5 like I said some 2 minutes apart some two hours apart in sets of 3-5 which once was 16 hours of seizure ranging up to 6 hours apart and mini "trembles" in between. I had to keep a log of his seizures for 90 days (I still keep it even now though) I write down the first seizure note the time, duration of seizure, he response check list in making sure he's out of it and then wait for the next one and track the same until they stop, Elvie was attached to my hip (we even broke the grocery store rules and he came in with me-in a doggy carrier that looks like a giant purse of course though) for about 5 months. After that life well pened I feel okay about leaving him home, but I kennel the other two dogs when I go out because I have seen how they react when he has a seizure-nothing has happened besides growling at him so far and I plan on keeping it that way...anyways I have come home a few times after an outing and noticed he seemed to have had a seizure when I was gone so I note it and wait for the next-it is never just one. But I've only had Elvis about a year now and so he's only had 3 episodes I've witness and one I think I wasn't home for. I'm really glad I got the support in people's reactions from here that this doesn't seem right so I don't feel like a hypochondriac going back to the vet demanding we do more.

Did you go see the neurologist? You mentioned that you had a consult. How about an mri to really find out the severity of what's happening.

When a dog starts having cluster seizures it's time for medication as that's when brain damage occurs. The electrical storms in their head generate so much heat it fries their brain if there is no respite in between.

Kindling is a phenomenon where the brain actually rewires itself every time it has a seizure to make a path so the next seizure is easier. That is why idiopathic epilepsy is generally a progressive disease. Elvis' seizures will just continue to get worse until one day the he won't come out of it or he has irreversible brain damage.

I agree with Karen. If your local vets aren't taking it seriously, ask for a referral to a neurologist.

I did only the referral to UC Davis and spoke to the head of their neurology department, she requested the initial blood work, test for liver/kidney function and later wanted the results of a 90 day tracking, interstitially we weren't sure if this was neurological or environmental or caused by another medical problem as I had only had Elvis a month or so I think and the kennel I got him from said he had never had a seizure or any medical issues-although Shelborne's Yorkies also claimed to de-worm and regularly treat for worms and Elvis arrived with worms (severe infestation), no fleas but he had tons of flea poo in his coat, and teeth in very poor condition for his age. I had to have him immediately treated with de-wormer and he had to have a tooth scraping and cleaning at the vets-it was too bad to have done at the groomer, plus Elaine never sent his vet records as she said she would for the two years she had him, and failed to respond later to my requests for them, so its uncertain if she knew he had this issue (seizures), he also has arthritis and that was stated but that's easy to treat for and we have that under control with a vitamin supplement. My vet took all this treatment very seriously so I never doubted their decisions. Anyways after the results of the tests here and the 90 day tracking of seizure activity the head of neurology at UC Davis determined that unless seizures were occurring regularly within a 30 day time period, seizures every month the MRI would be pointless and so would medication. I guess in all honest MRI results in dogs can only tell the part of the brain affected, as well the extent of damage. But my point is exactly that Elvis having cluster seizures is more severe even every 90 days than a dog who say seizes once every 30 days. I mean I respect their decisions but I think sometimes people that are used to these situations give general determinations and they forget that even though Elvis is my dog he's also one of my kids.

What a situation you are in where 4 vets tell you that your dog doesn't need medicine, but you don't seem ok with that. And frankly, neither would I. I don't even know what to tell you. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Should you go get a 5th opinion? I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

Are his seizures exactly as they were when you had the consult done? they sound worse in your description...if so, then perhaps you should contact them again? Just a thought.

Have you updated UC Davis since Elvis started have cluster seizures so close together that go on for days?

Updated no. The last from them was if he wasn't haven't seizures more than one a month, then they really couldn't help, she felt that the primary decision should come from my vet, and that "in reality" an MRI is used to determine where and the extent of damage to brain from seizures and we don't normally see dogs unless medication isn't controlling seizures that happen on a regular basis monthly. Yes, I'm not sure if a 5th opinion is necessicary, but I think I'm going to go back to my vet and demand we try something else. Its not that Elvis has regular seizures or that anything has really changed from the beginning but its like at first this was all an emergency lets monitor and now its like well lets do basically nothing...I don't know how to do nothing there has to be something he can't keep slowly but surely loose his abilities I'm not okay with standing idly and letting it happen, I just don't have the knowledge to advocate for anything in particular.