Vaccination Reaction Today BEWARE

[Ellie May]

This issue is so complex, so imo, there is no one right answer here.
Dr. Dodds protocol is ifne, but titers don't work for veryone and many of us don't believe that they are necessary or being used the right way.

AAHA protocol is also fine, but giving DHP every three years is a compromiise and is still considered overvaccination to a lot of people.

I have certain feeling about lepto, but I will "not" tell somebody else to skip it. It's between client and vet after research is done by client. I will strongly suggest researching before agreeing to it, but I will not say skip it because if the dog gets lepto and the vaccine could have prevented that strain, I wouldn't be very happy with myself... There are a couple that I may suggest not getting (general along the giardia line). Most vets even seem to realize it's not a good idea.

I also will not choose a vet based on vaccine protocol. Things like this vary so widely, some vets honestly are nervous about undervaccinating (it really isn't all about the money or they'd insist on titers since they're more expensive), and there are likely very few vets in the country that I totally agree with because I don't even know what I think of these things part of the time... I don't have a problem with a vet who gives lepto or corona or diardia persay. I have a problem when they won't try to come to a compromise with me taking my thoughts into consideration.

[mimimomo]

I agree w/you Crystal. I've read that titers are not accurate & it varies depending on the individual. It's just that I've had 2 pups by Mimi have reactions & it's making me concerned. It could also be a one time thing. Yes, it really depends on the location & we're in southern CA, where Dr. Jean Dodds is.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

This issue is so complex, so imo, there is no one right answer here.
Dr. Dodds protocol is ifne, but titers don't work for veryone and many of us don't believe that they are necessary or being used the right way.

AAHA protocol is also fine, but giving DHP every three years is a compromiise and is still considered overvaccination to a lot of people.

I have certain feeling about lepto, but I will "not" tell somebody else to skip it. It's between client and vet after research is done by client. I will strongly suggest researching before agreeing to it, but I will not say skip it because if the dog gets lepto and the vaccine could have prevented that strain, I wouldn't be very happy with myself... There are a couple that I may suggest not getting (general along the giardia line). Most vets even seem to realize it's not a good idea.

I also will not choose a vet based on vaccine protocol. Things like this vary so widely, some vets honestly are nervous about undervaccinating (it really isn't all about the money or they'd insist on titers since they're more expensive), and there are likely very few vets in the country that I totally agree with because I don't even know what I think of these things part of the time... I don't have a problem with a vet who gives lepto or corona or diardia persay. I have a problem when they won't try to come to a compromise with me taking my thoughts into consideration.

I agree with all of what you are saying. I also have my own feelings...and will not vaccinate mine at all after a certain age; but, I don't recommend that to anyone.

I know that people don't like the three year thing, but it sure as heck is better than every year. It troubles me that vets are not changing to it. Even IF people feel that is over vaccinating, that is fine for them. I still feel that people need to know that it is not recommended now every single year!

People definitely should research and talk with their vets prior to allowing any vaccine.

[Ellie May]

Oh my gosh, my last post was so full of typos!

Originally Posted by mimimomo

I agree w/you Crystal. I've read that titers are not accurate & it varies depending on the individual. It's just that I've had 2 pups by Mimi have reactions & it's making me concerned. It could also be a one time thing. Yes, it really depends on the location & we're in southern CA, where Dr. Jean Dodds is.

It is a scary thing. After seeing Ellie after her lepto vaccine a few years ago, it makes me want to tell everyone to not go near the thing, but then I can't do that either... Thankfully we haven't had a problem with the regular DHP.

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I agree with all of what you are saying. I also have my own feelings...and will not vaccinate mine at all after a certain age; but, I don't recommend that to anyone.

I know that people don't like the three year thing, but it sure as heck is better than every year. It troubles me that vets are not changing to it. Even IF people feel that is over vaccinating, that is fine for them. I still feel that people need to know that it is not recommended now every single year!

People definitely should research and talk with their vets prior to allowing any vaccine.

We are probably starting the same here (no vaccines except rabies anymore). I would not recommend it to others, but I think a lot of dogs would benefit from doing it this way.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

We are probably starting the same here (no vaccines except rabies anymore). I would not recommend it to others, but I think a lot of dogs would benefit from doing it this way.

I lost a pup a couple of years ago and still believe the DHPP led to her death. I will never know that for certain, but she was a senior and I had not wanted to give it. My vet at that time was still wavering on her feelings about the recommendations and I allowed myself to be scared because of the fact I bring fosters in to my home.

Little Dori became extremely ill that weekend....horrible diarrhea. Then, six months later, she suddenly became short of breath one day. I took her in, and they referred her to the cardiologist because she was really in distress. Echo showed lesions at the valve....but she had never had a murmur....because of that, the cardiologist said it was due to an infection. The only time she was ever ill was after that shot. I could be wrong, and as I said, will never know for sure, but none of my pups will get those shots after a certain age that I have determined.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

This issue is so complex, so imo, there is no one right answer here.
Dr. Dodds protocol is ifne, but titers don't work for veryone and many of us don't believe that they are necessary or being used the right way.

AAHA protocol is also fine, but giving DHP every three years is a compromiise and is still considered overvaccination to a lot of people.

I have certain feeling about lepto, but I will "not" tell somebody else to skip it. It's between client and vet after research is done by client. I will strongly suggest researching before agreeing to it, but I will not say skip it because if the dog gets lepto and the vaccine could have prevented that strain, I wouldn't be very happy with myself... There are a couple that I may suggest not getting (general along the giardia line). Most vets even seem to realize it's not a good idea.

I also will not choose a vet based on vaccine protocol. Things like this vary so widely, some vets honestly are nervous about undervaccinating (it really isn't all about the money or they'd insist on titers since they're more expensive), and there are likely very few vets in the country that I totally agree with because I don't even know what I think of these things part of the time... I don't have a problem with a vet who gives lepto or corona or diardia persay. I have a problem when they won't try to come to a compromise with me taking my thoughts into consideration.

I do my titers with dr dodds personally and i trust her as she has done a ton of studies on vaccines and currently doing the rabies challenge

the vets do not make more on titers as the labs get the majority of the money since it is a blood draw. I think the vets make more on the vaccines but not 100% sure but i could ask Jean as I am sure she is aware of it.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

I agree w/you Crystal. I've read that titers are not accurate & it varies depending on the individual. It's just that I've had 2 pups by Mimi have reactions & it's making me concerned. It could also be a one time thing. Yes, it really depends on the location & we're in southern CA, where Dr. Jean Dodds is.

yep and after this parvo scare I just had no one was overly concerned that dd had not had a parvo distemper since she was 6 months which made me really think wow so maybe they all know that it is not necessary to keep vaccinating for these two things very odd as not one of them said hurry come in and get your dogs vaccinated and i thought that very odd

[dwerten]

this is from jean dodds she emailed this to me

MORE ON VACCINE TITER TESTING

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
Hemopet
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310-828-4804; Fax 310-828-8251
Hemopet/Hemolife, HEMOPET a full animal blood bank, Diagnostic Laboratory, Adoption and Consultation
hemopet@hotmail.com

Some veterinarians have challenged the validity of using vaccine titer testing to assess the immunologic status of animals against the common, clinically important infectious diseases.

With all due respect, this represents a misunderstanding of what has been called the “fallacy of titer testing”, because research has shown that once an animal’s titer stabilizes it is likely to remain constant for many years. Properly immunized animals have sterilizing immunity that not only prevents clinical disease but also prevents infection, and only the presence of antibody can prevent infection. As stated by eminent expert Dr. Ronald Schultz in discussing the value of vaccine titer testing, these tests “show that an animal with a positive test has sterilizing immunity and should be protected from infection. If that animal were vaccinated it would not respond with a significant increase in antibody titer, but may develop a hypersensitivity to vaccine components (e.g. fetal bovine serum). Furthermore, the animal doesn't need to be revaccinated and should not be revaccinated since the vaccine could cause an adverse reaction (hypersensitivity disorder). You should avoid vaccinating animals that are already protected. It is often said that the antibody level detected is “only a snapshot in time". That's simply not true; it is more a “motion picture that plays for years".

Furthermore, protection as indicated by a positive titer result is not likely to suddenly drop-off unless an animal develops a medical problem such as cancer or receives high or prolonged doses of immunosuppressive drugs. Viral vaccines prompt an immune response that lasts much longer than that elicited by classic antigen. Lack of distinction between the two kinds of responses may be why practitioners think titers can suddenly disappear.

But, not all vaccines produce sterilizing immunity. Those that do include: distemper virus, adenovirus, and parvovirus in the dog, and panleukopenia virus in the cat. Examples of vaccines that produced non-sterile immunity would be leptospirosis, bordetella, rabies virus, herpesvirus and calicivirus --- the latter two being upper respiratory viruses of cats. While non-sterile immunity may not protect the animal from infection, it should keep the infection from progressing to severe clinical disease.

Therefore, interpreting titers correctly depends upon the disease in question. Some titers must reach a certain level to indicate immunity, but with other agents like those that produce sterile immunity, the presence of any measurable antibody shows protection. The positive titer test result is fairly straightforward, but a negative titer test result is more difficult to interpret, because a negative titer is not the same thing as a zero titer and it doesn't necessarily mean that animal is unprotected. A negative result usually means the titer has failed to reach the threshold of providing sterile immunity. This is an important distinction, because for the clinically important distemper and parvovirus diseases of dogs, and panleukopenia of cats, a negative or zero antibody titer indicates that the animal is not protected against canine parvovirus and may not be protected against canine distemper virus or feline panleukopenia virus.

Finally, what does more than a decade of experience with vaccine titer testing reveal ? Published studies in refereed journals show that 90-98% of dogs and cats that have been properly vaccinated develop good measurable antibody titers to the infectious agent measured. So, in contrast to the concerns of some practitioners, using vaccine titer testing as a means to assess vaccine-induced protection will likely result in the animal avoiding needless and unwise booster vaccinations.

SIDE BAR
Reasons for Vaccine Titer Testing: *
1. To determine that animal is protected (suggested by a positive test result).
2. To identify a susceptible animal (suggested by a negative test result).
3. To determine whether an individual animal has responded to a vaccine.
4. To determine whether an individual vaccine is effectively immunizing animals.

* from: Schultz RD, Ford RB, Olsen J, Scott F. Titer testing and vaccination: a new look at traditional practices. Vet Med, 97: 1-13, 2002 (insert).

References

Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 38: 1-4, 2001.
Lappin MR, Andrews J, Simpson D, et al. Use of serologic tests to predict resistance to feline herpesvirus 1, feline calicivirus, and feline parvovirus infection in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 220: 38-42, 2002.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to five viral antigens in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 55-60, 2004.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to three viral antigens in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 61-66, 2004.
Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force: 2003 canine vaccine guidelines, recommendations, and supporting literature. AAHA, April 2003, 28 pp.
Tizard I, Ni Y. Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals. J Am Vet Med Assoc 213: 54-60, 1998.
Twark L, Dodds WJ. Clinical application of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 217:1021-1024, 2000.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by dwerten

I do my titers with dr dodds personally and i trust her as she has done a ton of studies on vaccines and currently doing the rabies challenge

the vets do not make more on titers as the labs get the majority of the money since it is a blood draw. I think the vets make more on the vaccines but not 100% sure but i could ask Jean as I am sure she is aware of it.

They do get sent out, but some do them in-house and they can really charge as much as they want for them anyway.

I respect Dr. Dodds very much and am thankful for what she is doing. At the same time, that doesn't mean all protocols work for all dogs. I had also seen some information from Dr. Schultz about low humoral immunity not necessarily meaning low cellular immunity; thus, even a low titer does not mean that the dog is unprotected.

I wouldn't tell people to stop titering just like I wouldn't tell people to stop vaccinating. I can say this though. If we were to follow this protocol for Ellie, she would have to be vaccinated for distemper every 1-2 years which, imo, low titer or not is a bad idea. I'm sure there are many other dogs like her. So she is suddenly unprotected after 1-2 years? Or maybe titers don't give the whole picture...

[orlnurse]

Originally Posted by Brian339

Well today started out as normal. Lacy had a visit to Banfield today to get her shots up to date. They balab off some mumbo jumbo about vaccines and give her a shot. I was told to watch for swelling in her face or unusual behavior.

One hour later she is itching like mad. I mean rubbing her face on the carpet, scratching at her face with her FRONT paws. I know my girl and she was off her rocker. So I call the folks at Banfield and I was told she might be having a reaction to her LEPTOSPIROSIS CORONA COMBO. "I will have the vet call you back". I just put her in the car and shot down there.

Well she was in full reaction. The took her right away and began working in her. More shots Diphenhydramine inj. and Dexamethasone S. P. injection.

Long story short several hours later I was told to come pick her up she is doing better.

AND BY THE WAY YOUR VISIT TODAY WILL BE $98.00 for care to this reaction. I am so upset about this and I intend to handle this with management.

I will type more about this if anyone responds. I dont want to be a wind bag.

My advice is to find a new vet. I personally have had bad experiences with Banfield. However, I have lived and learned. Make sure you have all of your pup's records and transfer to a new vet. I'm glad your baby is ok though.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

They do get sent out, but some do them in-house and they can really charge as much as they want for them anyway.

I respect Dr. Dodds very much and am thankful for what she is doing. At the same time, that doesn't mean all protocols work for all dogs. I had also seen some information from Dr. Schultz about low humoral immunity not necessarily meaning low cellular immunity; thus, even a low titer does not mean that the dog is unprotected.

I wouldn't tell people to stop titering just like I wouldn't tell people to stop vaccinating. I can say this though. If we were to follow this protocol for Ellie, she would have to be vaccinated for distemper every 1-2 years which, imo, low titer or not is a bad idea. I'm sure there are many other dogs like her. So she is suddenly unprotected after 1-2 years? Or maybe titers don't give the whole picture...

some do titers inhouse??? I have never heard of a titer being done inhouse and been doing them for 5 years mine have all been sent out even before i knew more about them that is odd - i do not trust inhouse too much prefer the lab as do the vets i work with - the only one i want inhouse is cpli as that one takes too long to come back from lab for me
i agree and most importantly is no matter people need to remember it says right on vaccination for HEALTHY DOGS ONLY so your dog having health issues would already exclude her no matter what

That is odd as dd and your dog have similar issues and dd is hypothyroid which is immune suppressed as well and dd titers come back now for 5 years with enough of vaccine she has never been low since she was 6 mos and i do them every year but i feel safe knowing they are done and worth the money to me but if they did come in low like you i still would not do them as she has way too many health issues and would be taking a big chance.

Now demi is healthy and she never got her one year booster from rescue as i rescued her at 8 mos and i titered her and it came in low and that was the most expensive titer i ever paid for $154 as it went to cornell university so to be safe and she is very healthy we vaccinated her for parvo distemper as being a rescue was not sure and they told me she did not get last set of puppy shots and she did fine and we did parvo distemper as i did not know about separating back then but this vet does separate which is nice as i know that now.

[Ellie May]

Yes, I believe a former vet office of Ellie's had the capability. I had them sent out anyway... Hers go to Colorado State.

Even if Ellie was totally healthy and they came back low every year or two, I still wouldn't do them. I don't think, based on what I've seen with her, that they give the whole picture. And now because we are likely done with everything except rabies, it would be a waste of money for us anyway.

For those that want peace of mind, pay the $80 a year and hope for high levels of parvo and distemper. But if they come back low (esp. almost every time), then you're going to feel bad for overvaccinating if you redo them, feel bad for undervaccinating if you you don't redo them with low titer, etc. You could end up doing them more than every three years and now you've gone against AAHA recommendations... So I don't think there is one right answer here.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Yes, I believe a former vet office of Ellie's had the capability. I had them sent out anyway... Hers go to Colorado State.

Even if Ellie was totally healthy and they came back low every year or two, I still wouldn't do them. I don't think, based on what I've seen with her, that they give the whole picture. And now because we are likely done with everything except rabies, it would be a waste of money for us anyway.

For those that want peace of mind, pay the $80 a year and hope for high levels of parvo and distemper. But if they come back low (esp. almost every time), then you're going to feel bad for overvaccinating if you redo them, feel bad for undervaccinating if you you don't redo them with low titer, etc. You could end up doing them more than every three years and now you've gone against AAHA recommendations... So I don't think there is one right answer here.

yeah jean dodds sent a titer once to colorado state

yeah after this parvo scare at my house and my dogs being ok and the reactions of the professionals as if not concerned at all since they had the vaccine once I am really thinking they all know the truth about this stuff and if i had a low titer with mine i still would not do the shots especially in a dog that has health issues

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

My suggestion is to google Banfield complaints and reconsider using them for your veterinary needs.

Also do a search on YT for Banfield.

Welcome to YT! I am glad Lacy is ok...good thing you reacted quickly! That lepto shot is bad news.

I had a new owner, who I had cautioned many times, NOT to give the Lepto....it is NOT a problem in Houston....and she did it anyway, her dog had an anaphylactic reaction within 5 minutes of leaving the vet...she did a U-turn and raced back to the vet...her baby....MY baby... died.......and then she wanted her money back from ME!!!! I was absolutely totally devastated and I still think it would have been ruled justifiable homacide if I would have followed my emotions and killed her on the spot....my poor little baby girl.....my poor little soul......