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Old 08-17-2009, 03:24 AM   #1
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Unlove Possible liver shunt help please?!?!

Okay, I don't really know where to start... (Sorry in advance about the novel)

I am new to this forum, and I don't actually own a Yorkie. I own a Miniature Pinscher, but I have been doing a lot of research about Liver Shunts and your forum comes up a lot in my searches so I figured I might get a lot of help from you guys/gals.

My fiance and I got 2 mins pins recently, they have been with us for almost a month now and my fiance's pup has gained just over a lb. but my pup hasn't even gained a 1/4 of a lb yet. When we were in the vets about a week ago, she was weighed and she weighs 2.7 lbs. Myself, my fiance as well as the vet suspect a liver shunt because she has a lot of the symptoms. They are as follows:

She hasn't really grown
She rubs her head/muzzle a lot with her paws
She shivers A LOT
Drinks a lot/urinates a lot
UTI already (Vet says thats not normal)
She stares off/focuses on something & her head kind of bobbles/shakes
The other day she seemed like she was chasing her tail but she wasn't she was just running in circles
She seems like she is ALWAYS falling over (but not really stumbly)

I'm looking for information on foods, testing, supplements, and any advice that you can give really (as like I said she is only 2.7 lbs).

I have been so worried about my little girl & I have been crying for days over this.


Thank you in advance!

Sheina
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Old 08-17-2009, 04:52 AM   #2
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Welcome to YT. I don't have a furbaby with Liver Shunt myself, but I know so many people on the forum do and I'm sure they will offer you lots of advice and support. Just from reading other's threads- it seems a low-protein diet is recommended and a lot of people go to the University of Tennesse to have the surgery I think. Do you notice that your puppy's symptoms are related to when she eats or eating something high in protein? Has your vet done a bile acid test? There are so many knowledgeable members here- I know they will help you out. I think everyone here will welcome you whether your baby is a Yorkie or not. I'm so sorry your baby has been sick and that you have been so worried. I know how scary it is to have our little ones not doing well and not knowing exactly what is wrong or how to get them better. I will have you both in my thoughts and prayers.
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:53 AM   #3
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Welcome to YorkieTalk.

What has been done so far?

Testing:
A full blood panel, urinalysis, possible urine culture and bile acids test need to be done immediately. How old is she? The problem with doing a bile acids test now is the liver isn't fully developed, so the results may not be accurate. It is best to wait until 20 weeks for accurate results. On the other hand, you need the results now, so just be aware that you may need to repeat the test later. If all is normal and your vet doesn't know what is going on, I'd see a specialist. If the bile acids are high, you will have to start talking about Protein C testing (blood test sent to Cornell) and scintography. A lot of people skip ultrasound because it's only 60-80% accurate at detecting a shunt, but because the bladder is involved in this case, it may be a good diagnostic tool. If it turns out to be an extrahepatic shunt, surgery will probably be recommended and should be done. If it's microvascular dysplasia (small shunting throughout the liver), no surgery can be done and medical management is needed.The best places for surgery are University of Tennessee (very cheap compared to most everywhere else) and Cornell. UT has an excellent safety record. I would avoid in-state hospitals/specialists that charge double the price without the safety record of one of the better places...

Low protein diets are good but low protein diets with the right type of protein should be the focus. Red meat and organ meat are some of the worst. They tend to produce ammonium (toxin) and that builds up and causes hepatic encephalopathy (neurologic symptoms). Hills canned L/D and
royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 are two choices. Hills dry L/D and Hills K/D canned and dry are not recommended because they may be low in protein, but it isn't the right type. Non meat proteins are best (like cottage cheese). Eggs and sometimes fish can be used also. If feeding kibble, you should add equal parts water because moisture is very important for these dogs, especially those with bladder involvement.

Supplements that should be giving are SAMEe (Denosyl, Vetri DMG), milk thistle (Hepatosupport or human milk thistle giving with vitamin e) and lactulose. Others that may be good are fish oil and extra vitamin e.

I think the first part of this came out a little funny.
Sorry about that. I just woke up.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:23 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2MinPins View Post
Okay, I don't really know where to start... (Sorry in advance about the novel)

I am new to this forum, and I don't actually own a Yorkie. I own a Miniature Pinscher, but I have been doing a lot of research about Liver Shunts and your forum comes up a lot in my searches so I figured I might get a lot of help from you guys/gals.

My fiance and I got 2 mins pins recently, they have been with us for almost a month now and my fiance's pup has gained just over a lb. but my pup hasn't even gained a 1/4 of a lb yet. When we were in the vets about a week ago, she was weighed and she weighs 2.7 lbs. Myself, my fiance as well as the vet suspect a liver shunt because she has a lot of the symptoms. They are as follows:

She hasn't really grown
She rubs her head/muzzle a lot with her paws
She shivers A LOT
Drinks a lot/urinates a lot
UTI already (Vet says thats not normal)
She stares off/focuses on something & her head kind of bobbles/shakes
The other day she seemed like she was chasing her tail but she wasn't she was just running in circles
She seems like she is ALWAYS falling over (but not really stumbly)

I'm looking for information on foods, testing, supplements, and any advice that you can give really (as like I said she is only 2.7 lbs).

I have been so worried about my little girl & I have been crying for days over this.


Thank you in advance!

Sheina
My other advice to you is to join Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support : Liver Shunt & MVD/HMD Support -
they have been so helpful with my journey through this Liver Shunt issue with my Yorkie baby. They have helped with diet and any other questions you might possible have concerning Liver Shunt. Good Luck!
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:34 PM   #5
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I'm so sorry that your one baby isn't doing well. Love Min Pins. They are very regal doggies who basically have an attitude like Yorkies.
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:29 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Lolasmom1211 View Post
My other advice to you is to join Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support : Liver Shunt & MVD/HMD Support -
they have been so helpful with my journey through this Liver Shunt issue with my Yorkie baby. They have helped with diet and any other questions you might possible have concerning Liver Shunt. Good Luck!
yes 100% agree they helped me with my dee dee when she was diagnosed with mvd
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:30 PM   #7
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oh and if my dog had liver shunt i would fly to dr tobias at university of tennessee for surgery as she is the best so if it does result in this do not trust anyone but her she is the best
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:25 PM   #8
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First off I would like to thank everyone for the nice welcomes even though I don't own a Yorkie.

Bellaandhelen- I've been reading really nice things about the University of Tennessee, they seem like they are a really good place to take your babies. As far as the symptoms, there really isn't a difference in before/after she eats it kind of comes and goes throughout the day. I have noticed it happened more often when she was getting treats that are high in protein before I did more research and realized that was bad. She hasn't had a Bile Acid test yet, but she will soon definitely. Thank you for the well wishes

Ellie May- There really isn't anything that has been done up to this point, i has really only been about 4-5 days since we have all started suspecting LS. I did call my vet today to see if she would call in the lactulose because at this point I would rather be treating her as if she has a liver shunt. I will hopefully be able to get a low-protein food for her soon, which is the best in your opinion? The SD or the RC? Would I mix in the cottage cheese with her kibble? If so, how much would you give a 2.7lb pup? I have been giving her smaller meals about 5 times a day.

Dwerten- Thank you for the advice. If she does need the surgery, I will definitely keep her in mind as that is about 15 hours away.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2MinPins View Post
First off I would like to thank everyone for the nice welcomes even though I don't own a Yorkie.

Bellaandhelen- I've been reading really nice things about the University of Tennessee, they seem like they are a really good place to take your babies. As far as the symptoms, there really isn't a difference in before/after she eats it kind of comes and goes throughout the day. I have noticed it happened more often when she was getting treats that are high in protein before I did more research and realized that was bad. She hasn't had a Bile Acid test yet, but she will soon definitely. Thank you for the well wishes

Ellie May- There really isn't anything that has been done up to this point, i has really only been about 4-5 days since we have all started suspecting LS. I did call my vet today to see if she would call in the lactulose because at this point I would rather be treating her as if she has a liver shunt. I will hopefully be able to get a low-protein food for her soon, which is the best in your opinion? The SD or the RC? Would I mix in the cottage cheese with her kibble? If so, how much would you give a 2.7lb pup? I have been giving her smaller meals about 5 times a day.

Dwerten- Thank you for the advice. If she does need the surgery, I will definitely keep her in mind as that is about 15 hours away.
L/D is what most are on and the lactulose is really only if they are having seizures from toxic build up -- i would not treat at all until you have done the pre and post bile acid tests and a full blood work up then you can decide from there so you can get a firm diagnosis before doing lactulose. L/D is a prescription diet from vet -- natural balance vegetarian is low in protein and so are fish diets- but i think you need to do bile acid asap if you suspect this
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2MinPins View Post
Okay, I don't really know where to start... (Sorry in advance about the novel)

I am new to this forum, and I don't actually own a Yorkie. I own a Miniature Pinscher, but I have been doing a lot of research about Liver Shunts and your forum comes up a lot in my searches so I figured I might get a lot of help from you guys/gals.

My fiance and I got 2 mins pins recently, they have been with us for almost a month now and my fiance's pup has gained just over a lb. but my pup hasn't even gained a 1/4 of a lb yet. When we were in the vets about a week ago, she was weighed and she weighs 2.7 lbs. Myself, my fiance as well as the vet suspect a liver shunt because she has a lot of the symptoms. They are as follows:

She hasn't really grown
She rubs her head/muzzle a lot with her paws
She shivers A LOT
Drinks a lot/urinates a lot
UTI already (Vet says thats not normal)
She stares off/focuses on something & her head kind of bobbles/shakes
The other day she seemed like she was chasing her tail but she wasn't she was just running in circles
She seems like she is ALWAYS falling over (but not really stumbly)

I'm looking for information on foods, testing, supplements, and any advice that you can give really (as like I said she is only 2.7 lbs).

I have been so worried about my little girl & I have been crying for days over this.


Thank you in advance!

Sheina
First I would like to welcome you to yorkie talk, I am still a newbie here but the folks on the site are wonderful and such a great help.

I had a dorkie that was diagnosed with multiple liver shunts, Ellie Mae has hit right on the nose. They will perform ultrasounds, bile tests, complete blood work. Hills L/D works great as does the milk thistle. There is medication they can give for your baby to take with the possibility of surgery.

They must maintain a low protein diet, this is VERY important.

My heart and prayers go out to you and your baby.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:26 AM   #11
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I agree with all the info above. U of Tenn is one of the BEST.
However, since you are in Vermont, Cornell University *may* be a better option for you, they are just as good.

There is another Yahoo Group, whom follow alot of Dr. Center's recommendations and advice, alot of the members are in the Northeast as well:

DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

Best Wishes
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:29 AM   #12
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I think if the bile acids come back high and you are still dealing with circling and the like, then lactulose should be tried because those are neurological symptoms.

L/D canned and RC 14 kibble are both okay. Some seem to think the RC is a better quality food. I have no opinion on it really. Whatever your pup will eat... The cottage cheese thing could be used in the case of wanting to homecook. You could add it to the kibble, but since you're adding protein, it should be done slowly if at all. When symptoms recur, the amount has to be reduced. This is something that your vet needs to help decide though, because a pup's nutritional needs are much different than an adult's and there could be deficiencies if using an rx diet.
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