Crystals in Urine--liver disease? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

sammer · 05-02-2009, 08:52 AM

Hi, I was reading the posts from DAB about her little Emma and her upcoming shunt surgery. My Emma is a toy yorkie, 10 months old, 3lbs. 12 oz--she too has never been a big eater, but just a few days ago she was turning everything down.

I took her to the vet and all was fine on exam, but he wanted a urine sameple. I turned her pee pad upside down so the urine would puddle and the next morning brought over the sample.

I was at the hospital having my monthly treatment on my bladder when the vet called and left a message (Thurs aft) that her urine was diluted and there were crystals present--he was leaving for the day and said to call him in the morning.

When I called him, he talked about liver displasia and liver shunts and I have to wait until Monday (had he said on the message to fast her and bring her in the next day-Friday, it would have saved some of this emotional pain of waiting). However she had already eaten a little scrambled egg, so I couldn't bring her for the blood tests.

They are going to take blood fasting Monday morning and then I have to leave her and they will feed her and take another blood test. I don't know how long the tests take to come back, or if they can read them there. I called my original vet (who spayed her in early March---I've moved so I changed vets) and they did do a basic liver check and didn't find anything. She told me to try not to worry too much, that it was not necessarily a death sentence and that some dogs have hepititis (not like human hepititis) and that can be treated with antibiotics.

I also called the breeder and she said there is no sign of liver problems on her genealogy/AKC registration information, nor do any of the puppies of the same litter have any liver problems.

I'm writing for two reasons---One to see if anyone who has been through this can tell me about it---perhaps they saw crystals and it wasn't bad liver disease...or perhaps you are knowledgeable about this. Secondly I want to wish DAB and her Emma the very best. DAB, if you are able (and I'll understand if you're not) can you tell me how your Emma was diagnosed?

Each day my little Emma eats less--I try to cook her foods and feed her from my plate,she makes the effort for me but really doesn't want to eat. She's also sleeping a lot. I know that I won't know anything for sure until after Monday's results, but I'm hoping someone can ease my mind, or inform me better.

Also, if anyone reading this is spiritual, please add my little "monkey" Emma to your prayer list. I don't mean to sound overly melodramatic, but life hasn't been kind to me in many years...Emma is the reason I get up in the morning to face another day--I don't want to even think of losing her.

Thank you,
Sammer

magicgenie · 05-02-2009, 09:22 AM

Picky eating, lethargy, crystals in urine all point to something going on in her liver but there are conservative measures you can start immediately to give her some relief and buy yourself some time to do the research and find the best vets to help you. Also, this could well be something simple and curable. There's a lot of information on here about diets low in animal proteins that you might switch to right away for some immediate relief. Most of all, take your time to know your options and verify everthing twice. Good luck.

mypreciouspups · 05-02-2009, 09:24 AM

Emma will be in my prayers for a good test result.. I am sorry your dealing with this over a whole week end..I am sure some one will shed some light on this for you.. maybe ease your mind some... hugs.. anne

Mardelin · 05-02-2009, 09:59 AM

What your breeder told you is a bit incorrect. Just because there are no other puppies within a litter that do not have liver problems does not mean that they all don't. Has she had the pups bile acid tested. Your lil girls dam and sire may have tested clear for LS but, that doesn't mean one or the other aren't carriers.

On another note, crystals can also mean stones.

In either case, though not something that we want for our babies, both are medically treatable.

Good thoughts and prayers are comming your way.

Ladymom · 05-02-2009, 10:30 AM

Liver shunts are all too common in Yorkies. In fact, Yorkies are 36 times more likely to be born with a liver shunt than all other breeds combined.

Did your breeder bile acid test both Emma's parents? They still could be carriers, but it's a precaution all reputable breeders should take as part of their heath screening prior to breeding.

Emma does not need to be fasted before her bile acids test. That protocol is outdated.

I've attached a few links for you about shunts in general and the bile acids test.

Portosystemic Shunts FAQ

Hepatic Vascular Disorders - WSAVA 2006 Congress

PSVA and MVD Research Summary

TLC · 05-02-2009, 12:23 PM

This is not a death sentence at all, but you do need to be prepared for the fact that she *most* likely has a liver disease. Either a Liver Shunt or MVD

The Blood fast test is called a Serum Bile Acid test (BAT) and the result are usually back at your vet within a day or two. You will get 2 numbers: A Pre and A Post.
Both are important, but the Post is the concerning one. A normal Post will be under 20.

I will explain Roxy's story to give you a better idea about all of this. Roxy is about 4.5 lbs She is a very good eater, but she would *lay* around too much, and she is quite docile compared to the average *Yorkie*

I have heard stories of liver issues with other pups that have come from Roxy's breeder, so I had her BAT done. Her Pre was 43 (normal is under 5) and her Post was 100.9 (normal is under 20). All her other blood work is normal. Her urine is clean. We did an ultrasound, but the only thing a U/S is good for is looking at the size and shape of the organs (which her liver was normal). And a U/S is good to look for stones, which she had none.

Without going thru a liver biopsy we can conclude that Roxy has MVD - which is managed thru a special diet and supplements to aid her liver.

I also had a Protein C test done. Again this is a special blood test (sent to Cornell Univ.) for the results. Under 80% indicates Liver Shunt. Above 80% leans towards MVD. This isn't an accurate and true test, but it does come pretty close and can guide you in the right direction. Roxy's was 165%

~~~~
Emma doesn't want to eat bc the foods you are giving her is making her sick (headache, tired, nauseous, etc)

In the meantime can you get Natural Balance Veggie Formula. Snacks can be watermelon, romaine lettuce and apple bits (no skin). Also, as a temp solution, you can force vanilla children's Pedisure (not a lot though). You need to avoid Animal Proteins and absolutly NO red meat and/or organ meat.

Keep us posted and ask any questions you need to - there are plenty of us with tons and tons of LS and MVD experience

P.S. With a proper diet and supplements, I have been able to bring Roxy's BAT done a bit: Pre 5 and Post 61

It won't ever be normal though

bchgirl · 05-02-2009, 12:54 PM

You've gotten some great advice....I just want to say Dr Center now states a normal post level is 25, not 20 as mentioned above.

elleandca · 05-02-2009, 01:42 PM

oh wow.. will pray for little Emma

hope all is well soon ..

TLC · 05-02-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bchgirl

You've gotten some great advice....I just want to say Dr Center now states a normal post level is 25, not 20 as mentioned above.

Good to know

Roxy's Internal Medicine Specialist actuals feel that anything under a post of 40 is nothing of great concern

sammer · 05-02-2009, 04:31 PM

Thank you all for taking time to post to me. I will try to be less panicky and will look up the suggested sights.

I look forward to reading any more information anyone has--this at least is helping me get through the day/evening until Monday and even then it will probably be a couple of days before I know anything---sometimes the anticipatory fear is the worst. I keep looking at her and my heart breaks, but I'll try to think more positively.

Thank you all again for your support and prayers

Sammer (and Emma)

Mardelin · 05-02-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammer

Thank you all for taking time to post to me. I will try to be less panicky and will look up the suggested sights.

I look forward to reading any more information anyone has--this at least is helping me get through the day/evening until Monday and even then it will probably be a couple of days before I know anything---sometimes the anticipatory fear is the worst. I keep looking at her and my heart breaks, but I'll try to think more positively.

Thank you all again for your support and prayers

Sammer (and Emma)

Here's a website with some wonderful sucess stories. Terri Shumski a yorkie breeder and judge, now passed away was a Champion of yorkies and the fight to against LS.

Success Stories

Ellie May · 05-02-2009, 04:39 PM

What type of crystals are they?
Ammonium urate?

Mardelin · 05-02-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Here's a website with some wonderful sucess stories. Terri Shumski a yorkie breeder and judge, now passed away was a Champion of yorkies and the fight to against LS.

Success Stories

Here's a group that you maybe interested in

Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support : Liver Shunt & MVD/HMD Support

05-02-2009, 08:52 AM	#1
sammer Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: VT Posts: 32	Crystals in Urine--liver disease? Hi, I was reading the posts from DAB about her little Emma and her upcoming shunt surgery. My Emma is a toy yorkie, 10 months old, 3lbs. 12 oz--she too has never been a big eater, but just a few days ago she was turning everything down. I took her to the vet and all was fine on exam, but he wanted a urine sameple. I turned her pee pad upside down so the urine would puddle and the next morning brought over the sample. I was at the hospital having my monthly treatment on my bladder when the vet called and left a message (Thurs aft) that her urine was diluted and there were crystals present--he was leaving for the day and said to call him in the morning. When I called him, he talked about liver displasia and liver shunts and I have to wait until Monday (had he said on the message to fast her and bring her in the next day-Friday, it would have saved some of this emotional pain of waiting). However she had already eaten a little scrambled egg, so I couldn't bring her for the blood tests. They are going to take blood fasting Monday morning and then I have to leave her and they will feed her and take another blood test. I don't know how long the tests take to come back, or if they can read them there. I called my original vet (who spayed her in early March---I've moved so I changed vets) and they did do a basic liver check and didn't find anything. She told me to try not to worry too much, that it was not necessarily a death sentence and that some dogs have hepititis (not like human hepititis) and that can be treated with antibiotics. I also called the breeder and she said there is no sign of liver problems on her genealogy/AKC registration information, nor do any of the puppies of the same litter have any liver problems. I'm writing for two reasons---One to see if anyone who has been through this can tell me about it---perhaps they saw crystals and it wasn't bad liver disease...or perhaps you are knowledgeable about this. Secondly I want to wish DAB and her Emma the very best. DAB, if you are able (and I'll understand if you're not) can you tell me how your Emma was diagnosed? Each day my little Emma eats less--I try to cook her foods and feed her from my plate,she makes the effort for me but really doesn't want to eat. She's also sleeping a lot. I know that I won't know anything for sure until after Monday's results, but I'm hoping someone can ease my mind, or inform me better. Also, if anyone reading this is spiritual, please add my little "monkey" Emma to your prayer list. I don't mean to sound overly melodramatic, but life hasn't been kind to me in many years...Emma is the reason I get up in the morning to face another day--I don't want to even think of losing her. Thank you, Sammer

05-02-2009, 09:22 AM	#2
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	First, don't panic--- Picky eating, lethargy, crystals in urine all point to something going on in her liver but there are conservative measures you can start immediately to give her some relief and buy yourself some time to do the research and find the best vets to help you. Also, this could well be something simple and curable. There's a lot of information on here about diets low in animal proteins that you might switch to right away for some immediate relief. Most of all, take your time to know your options and verify everthing twice. Good luck.

05-02-2009, 09:59 AM	#4
Mardelin Mardelin Yorkshire Terriers Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: California Posts: 14,776	What your breeder told you is a bit incorrect. Just because there are no other puppies within a litter that do not have liver problems does not mean that they all don't. Has she had the pups bile acid tested. Your lil girls dam and sire may have tested clear for LS but, that doesn't mean one or the other aren't carriers. On another note, crystals can also mean stones. In either case, though not something that we want for our babies, both are medically treatable. Good thoughts and prayers are comming your way. __________________ Mardelin *Yorkshire* *Terriers*

05-02-2009, 10:30 AM	#5
Ladymom Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,317	Liver shunts are all too common in Yorkies. In fact, Yorkies are 36 times more likely to be born with a liver shunt than all other breeds combined. Did your breeder bile acid test both Emma's parents? They still could be carriers, but it's a precaution all reputable breeders should take as part of their heath screening prior to breeding. Emma does not need to be fasted before her bile acids test. That protocol is outdated. I've attached a few links for you about shunts in general and the bile acids test. Portosystemic Shunts FAQ Hepatic Vascular Disorders - WSAVA 2006 Congress PSVA and MVD Research Summary __________________ http://www.myladysdogbows.com/ http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...6213341?ref=nf

05-02-2009, 12:23 PM	#6
TLC Slave to My Rug-Rats Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 7,247	This is not a death sentence at all, but you do need to be prepared for the fact that she most likely has a liver disease. Either a Liver Shunt or MVD The Blood fast test is called a Serum Bile Acid test (BAT) and the result are usually back at your vet within a day or two. You will get 2 numbers: A Pre and A Post. Both are important, but the Post is the concerning one. A normal Post will be under 20. I will explain Roxy's story to give you a better idea about all of this. Roxy is about 4.5 lbs She is a very good eater, but she would lay around too much, and she is quite docile compared to the average Yorkie I have heard stories of liver issues with other pups that have come from Roxy's breeder, so I had her BAT done. Her Pre was 43 (normal is under 5) and her Post was 100.9 (normal is under 20). All her other blood work is normal. Her urine is clean. We did an ultrasound, but the only thing a U/S is good for is looking at the size and shape of the organs (which her liver was normal). And a U/S is good to look for stones, which she had none. Without going thru a liver biopsy we can conclude that Roxy has MVD - which is managed thru a special diet and supplements to aid her liver. I also had a Protein C test done. Again this is a special blood test (sent to Cornell Univ.) for the results. Under 80% indicates Liver Shunt. Above 80% leans towards MVD. This isn't an accurate and true test, but it does come pretty close and can guide you in the right direction. Roxy's was 165% ~~~~ Emma doesn't want to eat bc the foods you are giving her is making her sick (headache, tired, nauseous, etc) In the meantime can you get Natural Balance Veggie Formula. Snacks can be watermelon, romaine lettuce and apple bits (no skin). Also, as a temp solution, you can force vanilla children's Pedisure (not a lot though). You need to avoid Animal Proteins and absolutly NO red meat and/or organ meat. Keep us posted and ask any questions you need to - there are plenty of us with tons and tons of LS and MVD experience P.S. With a proper diet and supplements, I have been able to bring Roxy's BAT done a bit: Pre 5 and Post 61 It won't ever be normal though __________________ Adopt Donate Foster www.yorkie911rescue.com Last edited by TLC; 05-02-2009 at 12:25 PM.

05-02-2009, 09:24 AM	#3
mypreciouspups Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Florida/Canada Posts: 5,514	Emma will be in my prayers for a good test result.. I am sorry your dealing with this over a whole week end..I am sure some one will shed some light on this for you.. maybe ease your mind some... hugs.. anne

05-02-2009, 12:54 PM	#7
bchgirl Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: at da beach Posts: 15,444 Blog Entries: 2	You've gotten some great advice....I just want to say Dr Center now states a normal post level is 25, not 20 as mentioned above. __________________ Deb, Reese, Reggie, Frazier, Libby, Sidney, & Bodie Trace & Ramsey who watch over us www.biewersbythebay.com

05-02-2009, 01:42 PM	#8
elleandca Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: united kingdom Posts: 218	oh wow.. will pray for little Emma hope all is well soon ..

05-02-2009, 04:31 PM	#10
sammer Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: VT Posts: 32	thank you all Thank you all for taking time to post to me. I will try to be less panicky and will look up the suggested sights. I look forward to reading any more information anyone has--this at least is helping me get through the day/evening until Monday and even then it will probably be a couple of days before I know anything---sometimes the anticipatory fear is the worst. I keep looking at her and my heart breaks, but I'll try to think more positively. Thank you all again for your support and prayers Sammer (and Emma)

05-02-2009, 04:39 PM	#12
Ellie May And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI Posts: 17,928	What type of crystals are they? Ammonium urate? __________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶