Liver Shunts

[LunaBaby]

My vet did write a prescription for the science diet ld. I got her lactulose yesterday and the vet is looking into the amounts for the milk thistle and vit e. So hopefully it helps luna out. How much LD do i gave her? once again thank you for all your help.

[Ellie May]

MILK THISTLE
The milk thistle dose can be found here.
The adult human dose is about 400mg, so each dog's dose can be figured with the chart at the bottom of this page.

I think some people get right down to the grams of protein but what does the can say to feed?

[LunaBaby]

It doesn't say what to feed. My vet is suppose to call me today. I will ask her. If she even knows. Also, is there any good treats that i could give her?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by LunaBaby

It doesn't say what to feed. My vet is suppose to call me today. I will ask her. If she even knows. Also, is there any good treats that i could give her?

You can use seedless watermelon, peeled and cored apple bits and green beans as treats. Have you joined this group:
DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

They can help you with just about anything and will be able to tell you how much L/D to give.

[LunaBaby]

I found the amount for the canned food. and i will look into the group.

[Looneylinda]

My 9-year-old Yorkie, Pebbles has liver shunt. Because no large blood vessel was noted outside of the liver we are guessing it is Microvascular Dysplasia.

This was diagnosed when she was three years old--kind of late! We got her when she was 1 1/2 and there was no sign of a problem. She started becoming more quiet, going around in circles and falling over. She wasn't eating well, shaking and drooling.

I took her to 3 vets. Finally a great old-time vet in Bountiful UT took her home with him to watch her. He then decided to do a bile acid test. I think that normal is about 6-10 and hers was 183!!!!!

He told me it was better to give her Science Diet K/D than the L/D. What do you think about that, anyone? I guess it doesn't matter much, because she weighs under 3 pounds and she can't chew a kibble that big. When I tried the canned K/D she kept getting it stuck in the top of her mouth and I was afraid she would choke. The vet knows what I am feeding her and he approves. He could be wrong, though.

I'm sure I'll get some heat for this, but she eats Science Diet Adult 7+ Small Bites. It has 16% protein as compared to 13% in the dry K/D. She's not crazy about it. Sometimes I put a little bit of brown rice in it. She also likes fresh broccoli--the stalk that has been peeled and is more mild.

She definitely has hepatic encephalopathy and she is blind in her right eye. She still goes around in circles.

I give her Metronidizol and a Supplement called Marin from Nutramax. I thought it had Milk Thistle in it, but apparently it doesn't. I don't give her Lactulose all the time, because it makes her quite Loosey-goosey!! It is hard to decide on how much to give her because the same amount does not always have the same effect.

She has other problems too. The worst is Lupus. We found that out a couple of years ago. She started getting sores on her nose and in her ears. We had a biopsy done. It affects the skin.

Every 6 months or so she becomes extremely lethargic, stops eating and we think she is dying. We have blood tests that only show her glucose is a little elevated, but that can be from stress. Her last bile acid test was 15. Still too high, but it sure is better than 183.

I tried giving her Niacinimide for the Lupus but she threw up 8 times after one dose. I just can't do that to her. How much medicine can I shove down that teeny throat?

NOW she is having difficulty walking and it appears that her rt knee needs an operation. Needless to say my husband is not thrilled about spending $700-800 on knee surgery when she is in this condition. I can understand how he feels, but she is NOT his baby!!

She loves me intensely, and only tolerates my three sons. She won't go to any of my daughters.

I love this little creature. We call her a puss pocket or an abscess because she really has an attitude. She is the BOSS over Dexter, our other 9-year-old Yorkie who is such a gentleman. He only has arthritis in his back, so we think he's pretty healthy.

Sooooooooooo- what do I do? Have surgery on her leg or not? The vet said he thinks she will be okay with the anesthesia, because she has minor anesthesia when he hand scales her teeth and she had it when we did an ultrasound of her liver. He is, however, concerned that some of her difficulty walking could be neurological and not just her knees.

Her surgery is scheduled for next Friday?

This is my very first post. I'm sorry, I probably am asking too many questions and giving too much information on someone else's thread.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Looneylinda

My 9-year-old Yorkie, Pebbles has liver shunt. Because no large blood vessel was noted outside of the liver we are guessing it is Microvascular Dysplasia.

This was diagnosed when she was three years old--kind of late! We got her when she was 1 1/2 and there was no sign of a problem. She started becoming more quiet, going around in circles and falling over. She wasn't eating well, shaking and drooling.

I took her to 3 vets. Finally a great old-time vet in Bountiful UT took her home with him to watch her. He then decided to do a bile acid test. I think that normal is about 6-10 and hers was 183!!!!!

He told me it was better to give her Science Diet K/D than the L/D. What do you think about that, anyone? I guess it doesn't matter much, because she weighs under 3 pounds and she can't chew a kibble that big. When I tried the canned K/D she kept getting it stuck in the top of her mouth and I was afraid she would choke. The vet knows what I am feeding her and he approves. He could be wrong, though.

I'm sure I'll get some heat for this, but she eats Science Diet Adult 7+ Small Bites. It has 16% protein as compared to 13% in the dry K/D. She's not crazy about it. Sometimes I put a little bit of brown rice in it. She also likes fresh broccoli--the stalk that has been peeled and is more mild.

She definitely has hepatic encephalopathy and she is blind in her right eye. She still goes around in circles.

I give her Metronidizol and a Supplement called Marin from Nutramax. I thought it had Milk Thistle in it, but apparently it doesn't. I don't give her Lactulose all the time, because it makes her quite Loosey-goosey!! It is hard to decide on how much to give her because the same amount does not always have the same effect.

She has other problems too. The worst is Lupus. We found that out a couple of years ago. She started getting sores on her nose and in her ears. We had a biopsy done. It affects the skin.

Every 6 months or so she becomes extremely lethargic, stops eating and we think she is dying. We have blood tests that only show her glucose is a little elevated, but that can be from stress. Her last bile acid test was 15. Still too high, but it sure is better than 183.

I tried giving her Niacinimide for the Lupus but she threw up 8 times after one dose. I just can't do that to her. How much medicine can I shove down that teeny throat?

NOW she is having difficulty walking and it appears that her rt knee needs an operation. Needless to say my husband is not thrilled about spending $700-800 on knee surgery when she is in this condition. I can understand how he feels, but she is NOT his baby!!

She loves me intensely, and only tolerates my three sons. She won't go to any of my daughters.

I love this little creature. We call her a puss pocket or an abscess because she really has an attitude. She is the BOSS over Dexter, our other 9-year-old Yorkie who is such a gentleman. He only has arthritis in his back, so we think he's pretty healthy.

Sooooooooooo- what do I do? Have surgery on her leg or not? The vet said he thinks she will be okay with the anesthesia, because she has minor anesthesia when he hand scales her teeth and she had it when we did an ultrasound of her liver. He is, however, concerned that some of her difficulty walking could be neurological and not just her knees.

Her surgery is scheduled for next Friday?

This is my very first post. I'm sorry, I probably am asking too many questions and giving too much information on someone else's thread.

Some vets do recommend K/D over L/D because it is lower protein but what they don't consider is that it is the wrong kind of protein and is more likely to cause neurologic symptoms. If she is having neurologic symptoms on 16% protein, then it is probably either the wrong kind of protein or she does need lactulose. What doses have you tried? If you want to get really clinical with her, the purines in the food have to be watched too. What are the ingredients in teh Sci Diet that you are giving?

Why did she have to go under anesthesia for an ultrasound?
Did a regular vet do it?
How was a large shunt ruled out?
Is she on Denosyl?
How many times a day is she fed?
Marin contains milk thistle but dogs with extreme symptoms may react to the liver and the yeast in the Marin.
Because she would need to be under anesthesia for a very long time for knee surgery, I would talk to an internist about it.
What anesthesia is used and what does the vet plan to give as a pain med?

If she had trouble eating the K/D kibble, how about L/D canned?

[Princessgrace]

Looneylinda,

I have a two year old Yorkie that has no portal vein. Is that what you were referring to when you said "no large vein"? Doctor Tobias at UT said that her shunt was keeping her alive. You said your baby is 9 years old? That's great! Dr Tobias said Grace would have 1-5 years.

Don't feel bad about the food. Grace gets Science Diet Adult can food mixed in with her LD. Doesn't seem to hurt her and we have been doing this for awhile. We keep dry KD down all the time for her and her two brothers. Sometimes we boil potatoes and mix in with the LD. Dr Tobias said nothing over 18% protein. She loves dry cereal, especially Rice Chex and Cheerios.

You have given me hope that my Gracie will live longer. I always say that she will!

Debbie

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Princessgrace

Looneylinda,

I have a two year old Yorkie that has no portal vein. Is that what you were referring to when you said "no large vein"? Doctor Tobias at UT said that her shunt was keeping her alive. You said your baby is 9 years old? That's great! Dr Tobias said Grace would have 1-5 years.

Don't feel bad about the food. Grace gets Science Diet Adult can food mixed in with her LD. Doesn't seem to hurt her and we have been doing this for awhile. We keep dry KD down all the time for her and her two brothers. Sometimes we boil potatoes and mix in with the LD. Dr Tobias said nothing over 18% protein. She loves dry cereal, especially Rice Chex and Cheerios.

You have given me hope that my Gracie will live longer. I always say that she will!

Debbie

Liver compromised dogs can do okay on protein that isn't appropriate for them but it is usually not optiminal. Sticking with canned L/D may lessen the load on her liver. Do you healthy dogs get more than about 15-20% of the K/D? It is dangerously low in protein for healthy dogs...

[AmyChristine]

I am sorry to hear that your girl has LS, Copper has MD (Microvascular Dysplasia.) This is a wonderful place to learn. I give him Hepto Support, it has milkthistle and other things in it to help support his liver. You can order it on line.
He was having neurological symptoms when we found out and It has been a long road to get to where we are today. I have learned that more important than the amount of protien is the type, animal proteins are harder to digest than things like yogurt and eggs and cottage cheese. Whitefish and Chicken produce less toxins than red meats and pinkfish. Another thing that helped alot for us was taking him off of the flea prevention and using a shampoo that does the same thing, he started siezures the day after he was given frontline. There are so many wonderful people here willing to help with lots of great info.

[Princessgrace]

Being the lucky person that I am, my two other dogs (one Yorky, one Silky)are suppose to eat KD because they have kidney issues. Works out well so that their food can stay down for them to pick at when they get hungry. We sometimes keep my sister's Bichon puppies, so everyone has to eat separate then. Grace got to the point where she wasn't eating the LD, so we had to do something. It was a choice I had to make...her eating no food opposed to her having a little bit of Science Diet Adult. I chose the latter.

[Looneylinda]

I started to write this and went back to see what questions were asked and there was nothing here. Hope is doesn't appear after I start over. Sorry. I am no computer genius.

An Internist did the ultrasound and she required anesthesia because she would not hold still. Some kind of gas was used.

No problem with the Portal Vein was noticed on ultrasound so we assume it is MVD. Is that always congenital or can it be acquired?

My vet told me to add cottage cheese to her diet when she goes through these cyclical "downtimes". At first she will eat it, but that doesn't last long. It is apparently common for these little dogs to go through these times. An Internist told me he thinks they may become septic and that the next time she becomes ill I should have my regular vet draw blood cultures. This must be done before an antibiotic is started or it is of no value. If the body has an overwhelming infection sometimes the dog will not have increased white blood cells to attack an infection. Therefore, when a regular CBC comes back without elevated WBC's a vet might think there is no infection when there is. He also has questioned whether they might get a "touch" of hepatitis. It is interesting that she has not been deathly ill since I have been giving her the Marin supplement.

The Science Diet Mature Adult food has chicken as its base. It's probably not the best I could do. She has some food down all the time. She doesn't eat much at a time.

There is an exceptional Interist that I will talk to before she has the surgery.

I fiddled around with dosages and have decided that .7ml is a pretty good dose of Lactulose for her daily. Maybe I should decrease that to .5 and give it every day.

I hate to see anyone else going throug the trauma of Liver Shunt. I will keep all our little friends in my prayers.

[Ellie May]

Can you use Royal Canin LS 14 kibble and crush it?
It may cause allergies though.
Then there is Natural Balance Vegetarian that might be an acceptable replacement.

Originally Posted by Looneylinda

I started to write this and went back to see what questions were asked and there was nothing here. Hope is doesn't appear after I start over. Sorry. I am no computer genius.

An Internist did the ultrasound and she required anesthesia because she would not hold still. Some kind of gas was used.

No problem with the Portal Vein was noticed on ultrasound so we assume it is MVD. Is that always congenital or can it be acquired?

My vet told me to add cottage cheese to her diet when she goes through these cyclical "downtimes". At first she will eat it, but that doesn't last long. It is apparently common for these little dogs to go through these times. An Internist told me he thinks they may become septic and that the next time she becomes ill I should have my regular vet draw blood cultures. This must be done before an antibiotic is started or it is of no value. If the body has an overwhelming infection sometimes the dog will not have increased white blood cells to attack an infection. Therefore, when a regular CBC comes back without elevated WBC's a vet might think there is no infection when there is. He also has questioned whether they might get a "touch" of hepatitis. It is interesting that she has not been deathly ill since I have been giving her the Marin supplement.

The Science Diet Mature Adult food has chicken as its base. It's probably not the best I could do. She has some food down all the time. She doesn't eat much at a time.

There is an exceptional Interist that I will talk to before she has the surgery.

I fiddled around with dosages and have decided that .7ml is a pretty good dose of Lactulose for her daily. Maybe I should decrease that to .5 and give it every day.

I hate to see anyone else going throug the trauma of Liver Shunt. I will keep all our little friends in my prayers.

[Looneylinda]

I tried crushing the kibble on the K/D. I had to use a hammer. Since she hated the taste I didn't do that for very long. I also mixed the canned with the crushed kibble. Then I just did the canned until she kept getting it stuck in the top of her mouth. We have been dealing with this for 6 years and I have tried lots of things.

One vet told me to put some corn oil on her food. I haven't done that for a long time. Why would that help?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Looneylinda

I tried crushing the kibble on the K/D. I had to use a hammer. Since she hated the taste I didn't do that for very long. I also mixed the canned with the crushed kibble. Then I just did the canned until she kept getting it stuck in the top of her mouth. We have been dealing with this for 6 years and I have tried lots of things.

One vet told me to put some corn oil on her food. I haven't done that for a long time. Why would that help?

No idea why that would help.
With an already balanced commercial food, I'd hesitate to add too much oil because of the pancreatitis risk in Yorkies that eat excessive fat.

My dog's postprandial bile acids were 106 at last check and she has had acute pancreatitis, so we go through a lot of misery with food too. I homecook though and we can change ingredients around.